Author Topic: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project  (Read 3452580 times)

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Offline macboy

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7775 on: July 22, 2022, 03:40:15 pm »
I picked up a GM328A kit with 160x120 color display, rotary encoder, and TL431 reference. I didn't like the original firmware so I built my own versions of both the m and k firmware discussed here.

I found the update of the display to be too slow, so I did a couple things: upgraded from the original 8 MHz crystal and fixed some code. I ended up running at 27 MHz (significant overclocking but it works) and needed to update some timing related things for correct readings. In particular, sampling_cap.c required trivial but important update to support this specific frequency. The ADC is running at ~210 kHz clock, slightly beyond spec for best accuracy, but we over-sample and average anyway so a little bit of LSb noise isn't so bad.

The other thing I did was "fix" the menu system (K firmware). I tried switching to the page mode menu, but it was still way too slow to respond to the rotary control. I found that although most of the screen is not changing content, the entire screen is re-drawn each time the control is moved. So I fixed that: if the 'page' doesn't change, then draw only the '>' or ' ' at the first char of each line, to indicate the selection. This was only 3 lines of code including a variable declaration. I also changed the rotary encoder input to not wait for additional increments, but return on the first one. The combination of these two changes makes the menu instantly responsive.

As I played I thought it would be great to add measurement of VCEsat (Voltage of Collector-Emitter at saturation) for BJTs. I chose to do this in the M firmware as the code looked better structured and easier to follow. The web of #ifdef statements in the K firmware can be hard to follow. I only implemented the NPN so far, but it works well. I use the 680R to drive the base with about 7 mA in a common emitter type circuit. Originally, I used the 680R to limit Ic collector current, but this small ~7 mA Ic, plus Ic/Ib ratio nearly =1 gave lower (sometimes much lower) than expected results for measured VCEsat. So I switched to using no R at all in the collector-emitter path. Only the internal resistance of the pin drivers (20-24 Ohm) and test leads will limit current, so it ends up at around 80 to 100 mA (depending on VCEsat slightly). The Ic/Ib is now about 10 to 14, closer to ideal for this measurement about 30, still lower than the ideal ratio of 10 (used in many datasheets). The high Ic is far exceeding the max specified I/O pin current, but it is for only a few milliseconds at a time during the test. So far I haven't blown up any '328Ps. The Ic current is high enough that even the test probe resistance must be accounted for in calculations. With the low-ish base current, DC gain must be >>30 (I'd say at least 100) to ensure good saturation. Case in point: result with the low gain 2SC2625, see below.

Obviously I am willing to share my code changes, but I don't know the best way to do that.

Left to Right:
2N2222 (TO-92), 2SD2394 (TO-220), 2SC2625 (TO-247)
I suppose I should duplicate the test conditions (Ib and Ic) on the bench and verify the results with the same set of devices. In fact I'll do that now, and update this post with the results.

Bench Test Update:
For 2N2222, I measured 250 mV at 95 mA Ic, roughly 3 mA Ib.
For D2394, I measured 63 mV at 109 mA Ic, roughly 3 mA Ib.
For 2SC2625, due to its low gain (20) was not in saturation due to the small (~3 mA) base current. On the bench, increasing base current to about 6 mA resulted in saturation with about 206 mV across C-E. The tester can't drive this base current due to the ~20 Ohms RIL (I/O pin internal resistance) acting as an emitter degeneration resistor, lifting the emitter voltage to about ~ 2 V, and the base voltage to about ~2.6 V.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 04:40:09 pm by macboy »
 
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Online indman

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7776 on: July 22, 2022, 04:31:42 pm »
I have updated the comparison table of the most popular clones, taking into account the release of the new 1.47m and the addition of another clone variant LCR-TC1(T7)ATMega328DIP! To my resource https://yadi.sk/d/yW8xa5NJgUo5z added working English and Russian firmware 1.45m as well as its schematic diagram for this clone. I have also updated the Russian-language pdf format instruction for 1.47m. ;)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 04:49:55 pm by indman »
 
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Offline madires

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7777 on: July 22, 2022, 05:39:30 pm »
Obviously I am willing to share my code changes, but I don't know the best way to do that.

One way would be to send an email to the address noted in the documentation.
 

Offline lhlad

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7778 on: July 22, 2022, 08:08:54 pm »
Hello

Working 1.46m for LCR T7H clone, picture attached.

Added ATAR_TC1_U4 config option to make it play nice with U4/5 firmware. 
I got same problem as others trying to use the replacment U4/5 firmware, mainly power off straight away after first probe. 
Took a while to work out what was going on as both work as expected independently.

See https://gitlab.com/a11059/t7h_644_m.git  Scroll down to see info.

Repo includes schematic and more images of unit.
Also a link to an SDCC compatable version of U4 firmware.

Hope some find it usefull.



 
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Offline madires

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7779 on: July 22, 2022, 08:58:50 pm »
I'll add your workaround to the next version. Thanks!
 

Offline Feliciano

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7780 on: July 22, 2022, 09:15:34 pm »
Thanks indman and madires for your comments on the previous page about the ATmega clone, and also about the STM clone I think nobody had mentioned here before.

So from your valuable comments no plans on working on those for the short term. But anyways we should keep an eye on what the vendors puts on the shelves the next months, so maybe the market could shift in the medium run, we will have to wait.

And as always, thank you for your support.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 10:18:55 pm by Feliciano »
 

Offline mclute0

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7781 on: July 22, 2022, 09:43:35 pm »
I have some spare AVR128DB28-I/SP and they seem like a great MCU for these testers given how hard to find the atmega28pu chips are. maybe make a plugin socket to translate the pins for a prototype?
 
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Offline madires

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7782 on: July 22, 2022, 10:52:40 pm »
That AVR128DB28 looks much more interesting than the ATmega clone mentioned before. 12 bit ADC, DAC, built-in level shifting and some more features. EEPROM is a bit meagre.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 10:59:07 pm by madires »
 

Offline madires

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7783 on: July 22, 2022, 11:07:14 pm »
But anyways we should keep an eye on what the vendors puts on the shelves the next months, so maybe the market could shift in the medium run, we will have to wait.

I concur! For the foreseeable future we'll stay with the ATmega328 and 644 (324, 1284).
 
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Offline N9XYP

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7784 on: July 23, 2022, 12:08:42 am »
Now that indman refreshed the LGT8F328P existence for some T7s (maybe other clones too), I wonder, has anyone ported the OSHW to this "arguably improved" 32KB derivative via SWD? And if so, were some benefits obtained against the traditional ATmega328p?

over on GitHub = https://github.com/DurandA/transistor-tester-lgt328p

and to make working with the timers easier - https://dbuezas.github.io/arduino-web-timers/#mcu=LGT8F328P&timer=0

Don't forget the DAC, 80mA pins, computing accelerator (math routines) and a differential amplifier
« Last Edit: July 23, 2022, 12:12:31 am by N9XYP »
 
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Offline Feliciano

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7785 on: July 23, 2022, 01:06:46 am »
Interesting. Have you tried it?

From a quick glimpse of the files, it looks like DurandA took 1.42m and made some equivalences between the lgt and the 328. Maybe one of the developers could take a better look of that (provided they want to spend a little time to further study this fork).
What I miss most is it seems he didn't update the documentation to help us non-programmers get better bearings.

Anyways, thanks for the hint.

Don't forget the DAC, 80mA pins, computing accelerator (math routines) and a differential amplifier
Regarding the 80mA, unless the circuit is modified to reduce the low-value resistors to 68R or something like that, and consequently improved power supply and stabilization, it wouldn't benefit the "standard" component tester.  And for the rest of features, I guess it would require a lot more of coding and/or hardware mods.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2022, 12:43:15 pm by Feliciano »
 

Offline madires

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7786 on: July 23, 2022, 01:47:34 pm »
DurandA did only a few modifications, mainly adapted Makefile, ADC clock rates and the waitX() functions. The asm commands rcall and ret apparently need four cycles less. So a few time critical functions have to be adapted too. If the LGT8F328P matches the ATmega328 really well, maybe there isn't much more to be done.
 
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Offline Per Hansson

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7787 on: July 24, 2022, 02:15:53 am »
The other thing I did was "fix" the menu system (K firmware). I tried switching to the page mode menu, but it was still way too slow to respond to the rotary control. I found that although most of the screen is not changing content, the entire screen is re-drawn each time the control is moved. So I fixed that: if the 'page' doesn't change, then draw only the '>' or ' ' at the first char of each line, to indicate the selection. This was only 3 lines of code including a variable declaration.
I really like the page mode, can you post the changes you did for this?
Also cool to read about your VCEsat tests, good work! :)

I have some spare AVR128DB28-I/SP and they seem like a great MCU for these testers given how hard to find the atmega28pu chips are. maybe make a plugin socket to translate the pins for a prototype?
That AVR128DB28 looks much more interesting than the ATmega clone mentioned before. 12 bit ADC, DAC, built-in level shifting and some more features. EEPROM is a bit meagre.
madires: 128KB flash though, very very nice!
mclute0: I think making an interposer board for it would be nice so it could be used as a drop-in replacement for Atmega328P boards that have the microcontroller in a socket!

Please Yuriy_K's: can you (for my own sanity) post what GIT version you used to compile your firmware that I linked before?
Try the firmware from my previous post. Since then, both Karl-Heinz and I have made many changes to the source code and not only to GetESR. Not all changes in the source texts were indicated by Karl-Heinz, I had to search on my own and make them to my source codes, which differ significantly from the author's ones.
Thanks!
You posted at the same time I had written my very long post that I doubt few people have the patience to read through ;)
I would be very grateful if you could give some idea where you think the issue is with the K-firmware that I see.
Am I on the right path with trying to adjust "FAKTOR_ESR" or was there some other much more imprtant thing you had to change?
Because it would be much nicer if the problem can be reported back to Karl-Heinz so he can fix it in the official source code!
Remember: it worked fine at 8MHz after upgrade to SVN 809.
Only 16MHz operation causes the R0 values to be reported as 0.00Ω after that, recapped in these quotes here:

I encountered a problem with my Hiland 644 tester now, I have not started doing any hardware mods yet.
I was just making sure everything is ok before I start, and it is not!
The R0 values are all showing as 0.00Ω with Indman's K-firmware as you can see in the attached picture.
It was 0.27 0.26 0.27Ω with the original K-firmware.

Thanks Indman, I found the post where this is mentioned.
a bit further down this is then stated:
Quote
> Der Fehler tritt auch bei größeren Kondensatoren auf - Werte < 0,8 Ohm
> werden als 0.00 Ohm angezeigt - erst darüber sind die Werte mit denen
> der "328er" vergleichbar.

Die Ursache war eine falsche Abfrage in der Funktion GetESR.S speziell für den ATmega644.

So I tested to recompile the latest git version of K-firmware and then the R0 test is fine! (At 8MHz)

So I swapped it for a 16MHz crystal however then the issue with the R0 values being 0.00Ω came back :(
I have spent allot of time looking at the GetESR.S file in K-Firmware because I think the issue is there.
If you look at the value "FAKTOR_ESR" it is defined to 30250 if the processor type is Atmega644.
Otherwise it will be defined as 550000
Then we get to a if statement if the CPU speed is 16MHz
However here all definitions are commented out!
I'm no expert on C code
<cut...>

EDIT: I tried a couple edits of GetESR.S but could not get it right.
Then I found this post linked below by Yuriy_K and his attached HEX file in "Hiland_M644.zip" from post #810901 works great!
I'm unable to compile that version though when using his version of GetESR.S with the latest git release so too much has changed I guess :(
https://vrtp.ru/index.php?showtopic=25020&st=1170#
 

Offline Yuriy_K

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7788 on: July 24, 2022, 05:34:35 am »
I would be very grateful if you could give some idea where you think the issue is with the K-firmware that I see.
Am I on the right path with trying to adjust "FAKTOR_ESR" or was there some other much more imprtant thing you had to change?
"FAKTOR_ESR" Only works for 20nF - 200nF capacitors. For electrolytic capacitors, I changed a few places. But I consider myself understanding enough in Assembler to lecture Karl-Heinz. Who does not fit my firmware, do not use. I can't help anymore.
 

Offline ledtester

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7789 on: July 24, 2022, 02:31:27 pm »
But anyways we should keep an eye on what the vendors puts on the shelves the next months, so maybe the market could shift in the medium run, we will have to wait.

I concur! For the foreseeable future we'll stay with the ATmega328 and 644 (324, 1284).

I'm curious if there is any interest in porting the TransistorTester code to the STM32 platform?

FNIRSI seems to have done that with their DSO-TC2 product -- a mash-up of the "200 KHz scope" and the transistor tester:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-(toy)-dsolcr-meter-fnirsi-tc2-(june-2022)/msg4318003/#msg4318003

 
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Offline Yuriy_K

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7790 on: July 24, 2022, 02:49:28 pm »
Does this justify these measurements with 0805 X5R/X7R?

New parts, I tried to use the shortest lead possible.
All with the same 0.33k \$\Omega\$ ESR.   |O
10uf displays 11.14uf, on keysight multimeter it displays 9.1uf.

Did I get junk parts? Or is the meter crazy?
I will clarify the ESR measurements of ceramic capacitors. Here are the readings of a similar capacitor on the NJ100S - initial and final values. All values on the chart. readings on different devices "k" and "m" firmware ATmega 328 - 644. Readings "k" firmware after warming up for 1-2 minutes drops to a value of 0.05 -> 0.03 \$\Omega\$, readings "m" firmware little depends on warming up. Red arrows indicated the approximate ratio of measurement frequencies.

P.S. Anyone who bought Ttesters on other microprocessors can forget about the shown resolution and accuracy of measuring ESR, small capacitances of capacitors and diodes, etc. All the latest "novelties" of Chinese manufacturers are a pathetic parody for measuring instruments.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2022, 03:01:36 pm by Yuriy_K »
 
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Offline madires

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7791 on: July 24, 2022, 03:06:13 pm »
I'm curious if there is any interest in porting the TransistorTester code to the STM32 platform?

That's one of the commonly asked things. For detecting semiconductors we need 5V (some parts require even more). IIRC, the STM32 family is 5V tolerant, but can't provide 5V without the help of additional circuitry. So we would have to add a switch matrix. And this would make the design more complex and expensive which is detrimental to the design goal of being simple and inexpensive.
 
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Offline madires

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7792 on: July 24, 2022, 03:43:15 pm »
P.S. Anyone who bought Ttesters on other microprocessors can forget about the shown resolution and accuracy of measuring ESR, small capacitances of capacitors and diodes, etc.

That's a good point! Since we have several questions about porting the Transitortester to other MCU families, please let me explain what the main obstacles are. As already mentioned, we need a 5V MCU. Many measurement algorithms are specifically taylored for the ATmega to get the maximum possible, or for precise timing of events. Porting these algorithms to other MCUs will take a lot of time and effort to get it right. The current OSHW firmwares are the result of 10 years' work. So we're hesitant to move to a new MCU family, unless there is a better one to be worth the effort.
 
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Online indman

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7793 on: July 24, 2022, 04:19:45 pm »
Many measurement algorithms are specifically taylored for the ATmega to get the maximum possible, or for precise timing of events. Porting these algorithms to other MCUs will take a lot of time and effort to get it right.
I think that a lot depends on the desire and ability of Chinese programmers to bring the sold device to certain standards, to which we are accustomed since the founding of the project. As we have seen on the example of using a platform other than ATMEL AVR, it will not easy to do. For example, the new DSO-TC2 does not measure ESR but only VLoss. But in my opinion it's better than showing "fantastic" results on a LGT328P clone. ;D I have said before that we will get more unpleasant surprises if we test the clones now on the new CPUs in all modes.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2022, 04:29:14 pm by indman »
 

Offline edgard22

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7794 on: July 24, 2022, 11:18:23 pm »
Good afternoon, I am an enthusiast of this project, I use the ay-at with Markus 1.47m software and I would like to know if it is possible to add the base-emitter and collector-emitter capacitance to the data shown in the BJT's, since it would be very useful when identify false transistors (something unfortunately more and more frequent and that has already given me several headaches). I use this method with power transistors since it allows to obtain with some precision the size of its silicon chip. Although it is possible to do it by connecting only the aforementioned terminals, I think it would be very useful to see it as data to the already existing ones.
Unfortunately I do not have the knowledge to carry out such a modification and I would appreciate your help to achieve it.
Thank you very much.
ps: Sorry if the words are not well expressed, I'm using a translator.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2022, 11:34:38 pm by edgard22 »
 
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Offline Yuriy_K

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7795 on: July 25, 2022, 02:19:38 am »
I use the ay-at with Markus 1.47m software and I would like to know if it is possible to add the base-emitter and collector-emitter capacitance to the data shown in the BJT's
What prevents you from shifting the transistor in the measuring sockets 1112333, as shown in the pictures, or using separate wires?
 

Offline madires

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7796 on: July 25, 2022, 10:36:56 am »
Shouldn't the third terminal be grounded? For example, for C_eb (NPN) ground the collector and measure capacitance between emitter and base.
 

Offline Yuriy_K

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7797 on: July 25, 2022, 02:28:46 pm »
Shouldn't the third terminal be grounded? For example, for C_eb (NPN) ground the collector and measure capacitance between emitter and base.
The answer to your question requires some clarification. I found the technique for measuring the capacitances of transitions in the old Soviet GOST. An excerpt with translation and a diagram in the left column, below the readings of a 1000 pF capacitor, on a home-made device that I will use as a "reference".
Further along the columns: Diode 1N4148, capacitance be, capacitance bc.
Comparison of readings "m" and "k" firmware.
 

Offline madires

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7798 on: July 25, 2022, 02:53:26 pm »
That's interesting! Infinion's application note AN024 about 'Parasitic Capacitance in Bipolar Junction Transistors' (https://eva.fing.edu.uy/mod/resource/view.php?id=90733) shows different ways (open and shorted) with their specific definitions. Shall we go for the method with the third terminal open or shorted?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2022, 06:34:46 pm by madires »
 

Offline Yuriy_K

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Re: $20 LCR ESR Transistor checker project
« Reply #7799 on: July 25, 2022, 06:09:24 pm »
(https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/AN024.pdf?fileId=db3a30431400ef6801142715ee7106d3)
From this link I get:
HTTP Status 404
Type Status Report

Description The origin server did not find a current representation for the target resource or is not willing to disclose that one exists.
 


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