EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[edy]

Batteroo is being really nice, can't you see. Ali has offered a member of the military some free sleeves because he needed an odd number and Batterisers are only packaged in groups of 4. Just send in your ID to Ali to qualify (see attached).

Seriously though, I don't think there is much more to debate and certainly nothing productive can come out of arguing with the Brad Jones/Parrish guy. We still have a UL response coming... and maybe Garmin will chime in..... Until then, I would just let things run along. Batteroo will likely shoot themselves in the foot again, like they have up until now. There is no need to do anything, they are fumbling it all on their own.

I would wait until we hear back from UL, Garmin, and wait until they ship these units. It's only a few more months.

[5ky]

Data is beautiful!

So, I got it into excel and started massaging the data and got it into a nice graph.  VERY interesting results.  You can very clearly tell at what point the screen dimmed because it plateaus.  (again, I'm going to make a video today to put on youtube because people need to see this a real apples to apples test like this to show that batteriser is being very dishonest in their claims)

I don't know if I missed it, but please measure how much Wh the garmin device needs at 3V constant voltage for maybe 1 hour. I think we can assume that most modern batteries have more or less the same capacity, or at least they used the best available battery brand for longer runtime. With the Batteriser the GPS device runs for 10 hours, they say in the video. Can't be compared to the 17 hours without the batteriser, because of the dimmed screen after some hours, but it is easy to calculate the (average) efficiency of the boost converter, if we know how much energy it needs. This would be a useful number, because then we could say, for any device which operates down to 1.1V or 1V, where the battery is nearly discharged, that it would last x% less time than with the batterieser. The number would be independant of the device, because with the constant voltage, most devices become constant current devices (when running). But might vary for lower/higher current.

389 mW average at 3v CV if you force the backlight to stay on.  it's generally right at 389 mW but you occasionally see spikes up and down, fairly frequently, but most of the time it's right at 389mW.  You'd almost have to do high frequency logging to get a good clean average.

It drops down to 247 mW once the backlight dims.

The batteries I used are Duracell AA LR6 MN1500

[jancumps]

In the Garmin scenario, who would end up with a fully non-working GPS first, the one with or the one without batterisers?

[jippie]

When I buy a product, if there's one with UL trademark label, and one without, I always go for the UL Label.  I purely though it was about safety considerations.   If it instead means that a company can pass some contrived test to UL labs and it past the contrived test then this makes me rather sick to my stomach.

If true, it will totally change the way I buy gear.
 

You may want to check this post: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg747911/#msg747911

[f4eru]

When I buy a product, if there's one with UL trademark label, and one without, I always go for the UL Label.  I purely though it was about safety
considerations.
...
If true, it will totally change the way I buy gear.

That was a good thing to do (in the USA) 10 years ago.

The problem is not only fake UL logos, and even certificates like Bateroo is forging.

The problem is also UL has no monopoly any more on certification in the USA.
A company with a serious product has 3 options:

1) get a certification at UL : cost is in the order of 50 000$, it can vary widely...
2) get an alternative certification (NRTL) : cost is in the order of 20 000$, for the same strong certificaton as UL
3) not sell in the USA if the quantities are too low to justify a NRTL certification

The option 2 will probably lose some customers, but is a valid and exact replacement for a UL certification.
The list of the marks approved by the US gov. are here :
https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html

As you can see, UL still abuses it's (former) monopoly position.
I strongly encourage you to buy rather than only UL marked stuff, devices marked with any NRTL mark.

[f4eru]

Concerning Batterizer, I never saw a forged UL test result before, this document is obviously fake. Even asian crap manufacturers don't do fake documents like that, even if sometimes they fake the logo on the product. As Batteroo is an US company, they could get in deep legal trouble with UL.....

[jancumps]

Concerning Batterizer, I never saw a forged UL test result before, this document is obviously fake. Even asian crap manufacturers don't do fake documents like that, even if sometimes they fake the logo on the product. As Batteroo is an US company, they could get in deep legal trouble with UL.....

Batteriser doesn't show an official document, they show a summary. I can't and will not believe that they would even risk to falsify that.
They know that everyone is looking with a magnifying glass on everything they post.
The fan channel may be run by youngsters that still have to understand how to run a PR campaign, but the Batteriser company and their VCs aren't naive starters. That's not how the world turns.

As a human being with compassion, I don't even blame the fan channel that hard. They are making every possible mistake. And they make it in public.
But I think (hope) that they do that because of young enthusiasm. Some of us (me )have made many mistakes in the early days because of young enthousiasm . The internet wasn't around.
I hope that they learn from being slapped from both sides. If that would turn one of them into a great engineer, and one of them into a great PR guy that would be great.

I also bet that the great kid that got so many nasty comments will be alright. He's got the talent to become a great blogger and engineer.

[Fungus]

Concerning Batterizer, I never saw a forged UL test result before, this document is obviously fake

Batteriser doesn't show an official document, they show a summary. I can't and will not believe that they would even risk to falsify that.

I also don't think they'd fake that, but why did they publish:
a) Such an unprofessional document
b) With a number that can't be found in the UL database.
c) In a time frame that's impossible - UL certification takes time and they only started this a week ago.

OK, point 'c' is heresay (what evidence do we have apart from things they've said?), but 'a' and 'b' don't make sense.

[jancumps]

not commenting on a. Only Batteriser can tell. Many companies would put in the comments that it is a summary. They choose not to do so.

b) a few members here posted that that particular number isn't searchable in the online database. It's a work number used between UL and companies. Not an official reference for external use.
Maybe they used it to impress us.

c) I don't know. Maybe different timeliness  for different services? They ordered a service that many of us didn't know UL provided. Maybe they have a different timeline for those not-safety-related reports?

[Howardlong]

In the Garmin scenario, who would end up with a fully non-working GPS first, the one with or the one without batterisers?

The one with the Batteriser will fail first because (a) the unit is operating at full backlight with the batteriser whereas without, the unit deliberately reduces power on alkalines and (b) the inate inefficiencies of the Batteriser (or any) boost converter.

In fact, I'd say you'd be lucky to get 70% of the total running time with a Batteriser compared to straight cells bearing in mind the unit's efficiency savings that are being deliberately overridden by the Batteriser functionality.

389mW draw with the full backlight, which the Batteriser will force by falsifying battery state to the GPS, and 247mW when the Garmin is allowed to manage the battery itself after the first 7 hours or so.

[nixxon]

Here is a link to the 2003 Zinniker article with the figures quoted 42 minutes into the Batteroo's "Batteriser - Full length Batteriser explanation video". Zinniker is a bit more specific than Batteroo regarding the applied testing conditions: http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf

I havent read all the pages of the Zinniker article, I must confess.

BTW: a "LR6" battery = an alkaline "AA" battery

[Delta]

How can you all be so naive?

That 5ky fella is clearly working for Big GPS, and Dave is on the pay of Big Battery and Big Monkey.

[5ky]

How can you all be so naive?

That 5ky fella is clearly working for Big GPS, and Dave is on the pay of Big Battery and Big Monkey.

Ha!  What's funny is that I actually live about 10 minutes away from Garmin world headquarters, and a couple of my former classmates work there as EEs.  (last I checked)

[robby1995]

How can you all be so naive?

That 5ky fella is clearly working for Big GPS, and Dave is on the pay of Big Battery and Big Monkey.

Tell me with some good arguments why you think so.

I testet some batteries at my self and there wasn't. Much left in them for the batterizer to use.
I don't know whats going on with the GPS but i trust 5ky more then batteroo

[5ky]

How can you all be so naive?

That 5ky fella is clearly working for Big GPS, and Dave is on the pay of Big Battery and Big Monkey.

Tell me with some good arguments why you think so.

I testet some batteries at my self and there wasn't. Much left in them for the batterizer to use.
I don't know whats going on with the GPS but i trust 5ky more then batteroo

I think he was being sarcastic 

[robby1995]

How can you all be so naive?

That 5ky fella is clearly working for Big GPS, and Dave is on the pay of Big Battery and Big Monkey.

Tell me with some good arguments why you think so.

I testet some batteries at my self and there wasn't. Much left in them for the batterizer to use.
I don't know whats going on with the GPS but i trust 5ky more then batteroo

I think he was being sarcastic 

Ups
My english isn't the best,haha
If it's. So i'm sorry.
But it would be very interesting whats going on in the heads of the batteroo guys..
But i think we will know soon

[onlooker]

Quote from: Delta on Today at 08:15:04 AM

How can you all be so naive?
        That 5ky fella is clearly working for Big GPS, and Dave is on the pay of Big Battery and Big Monkey.

    ...
I think he was being sarcastic 

Ya, without ending the post with a proper facial expression, it can be confusing at the first look.

[Delta]

Quote from: Delta on Today at 08:15:04 AM

How can you all be so naive?
        That 5ky fella is clearly working for Big GPS, and Dave is on the pay of Big Battery and Big Monkey.

    ...
I think he was being sarcastic 

Ya, without ending the post with a proper facial expression, it can be confusing at the first look.

Aye sorry, should have put a smiley in, but I was hoping mention of "Big Monkey" would give it away! 😂

That said, with some of the shit that comes out of their online PR team, you could be forgiven for thinking I was serious...!

[onlooker]

Now, it is clear. As to "Big Monkey", it could be interpreted as referencing big (toy) industry in general even if there cannot be logical relations.

[timofonic]

Hey people, do an aspie test! I sometimes have problems with sarcasm, but this was very obvious!

If your English is somewhat bad, you might get confused in a lot of stuff. But please be concerned to improve it a bit more at least, this great effort will provide you many benefits and avoid dangerous mistakes. I was in a lot more shameful situations than this when my English was even worse than these days, and one of them involving undesired sex with a senior man and this isn't the worst one.

How can you all be so naive?

That 5ky fella is clearly working for Big GPS, and Dave is on the pay of Big Battery and Big Monkey.

Ha!  What's funny is that I actually live about 10 minutes away from Garmin world headquarters, and a couple of my former classmates work there as EEs.  (last I checked)

Please make them a visit with your laptop, showing them the Garmin video and even this forum thread if they get more interested. I'm nearly sure they will laugh and get angry at same time! It will be a fun spectacle and these scammers will get what they deserve.

It will be very funny to see the Garmin response, no monkey butt would save Batteroo Inc.

[learningrc]

Did anyone comment on the typo in the UL "testing" screenshot? It says "the batter holder". Would UL release a document with a typo? You be the judge.

Yes, they would.  I've had it happen multiple times.  But as I explained a few pages back, that page is definitely not from UL.

[Delta]

Back to business, has anyone contacted UL?

I severely doubt that UL have had anything to do with this sham - that jpeg looked more like a piss poor school project - but even if they did do that test, then 1) Butteroo should not be plastering the UL logo around the place until the official report is released, and 2) Butteroo have tricked them into putting their name to a bullshit test.

Playing with bloggers is one thing, playing with UL (or BASEEFA, or TUV, or ATEX etc etc) is quite another!

[5ky]

Update!  Jay_Diddy_B wants to send me his boost converter from this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739648/#msg739648

..to use in my test rig.  So, once that arrives, I'm going to pop it into the test rig between the battery holder (with brand new duracell AA's) and the GPS unit, and run the test in the exact same manner as my first test.  This should give us a very interesting stand-in for the real batteriser.   Thanks Jay!

[Jay_Diddy_B]

Hi group,

I will ship two of the boards that I showed in this post:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739648/#msg739648

These should be fairly representative of the boost converter in the Batteriser.

I will measure the efficiency at 100mA before I ship them.

5ky will repeat the test that he performed with the Garmin GPS.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

[opa627bm]

Here are few things we need to do:
1. Download their batteriser videos and repost it on youtube with free comment and likes/dislikes.
2. make time lapse videos about how a GPS can run without batteriser and post video of it.
3. Contact UL about their claim.
4. They might did something in their test jig to forge such data (a 100 ohm resistors inside the GPS will do)