Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal

[heavybarrel]

If you are using an iphone the "swipe up" will completely close the app. When you double tap the home button it will change to a mode that shows all the apps that are running in the background. (when they are running in the background it's supposed to help them open faster) The swipe up will close them, touch the screen near the bottom of the app you want to close and run (swipe) your finger from bottom to top of the display. The app will then disappear and should no longer be running in the background.
You are correct in that there is no "close" option, hitting the home button does get you out of the app but does not actually close or exit from it. I should have been more clear on that. Hope this makes sense and helps you get it working.

[miguelvp]

On Android,
I've noticed that the pop-up box about using the device sometimes doesn't come up, or if you dismiss it it won't ask but it doesn't connect to the camera.

The always do this operation doesn't stick. Usually what I do is detach the camera and exit the app. Also I tend to start the app by inserting the camera since that launches the app I think (my camera is still out on loan).

[Seeker]

@HB, thanks, will double check that it's properly closed (if the issue occurs again).

@Miguel, on Android here too, and same happens--inconsistent starts and the tick box to "always open with this" gets ignored each time. Flaky it seems, but I'm glad my unit isn't faulty.

Thanks chaps--you can get back to your soldering irons and scopes.   

[levi47]

INow, let's see if they can add some new features like changing the max/min thresholds. Or is that called the temperature span?  They could add a palette bar, with  a slider to change the center of span, and pinch to scale the span. Hint hint Seek ;-). They could even plot the temperature range on it.

This is exactly what i am waiting/ hoping for.
Can anyone point me in the right direction of the newest version of the windows app?

[WS-PI]

INow, let's see if they can add some new features like changing the max/min thresholds. Or is that called the temperature span?  They could add a palette bar, with  a slider to change the center of span, and pinch to scale the span. Hint hint Seek ;-). They could even plot the temperature range on it.

This is exactly what i am waiting/ hoping for.
Can anyone point me in the right direction of the newest version of the windows app?

I fully agree and just would like to add the wish that SeeK implements a correction for the measurement of temperatures below 20°C.

[efahrenholz]

Does anyone know if seeks app compresses the palete for the high and low? When I had my camera working, I noticed that it would force the span to maximize the palette. So basically the palette took priority, versus contrast. And it always seemed that it would shift the palette up if a small group of higher values entered the dataset. The way they handle the palette to temperature span is...weird.

Also, in regards to theleft lepton, anyone have the actual fps of the scensor vs the fps of the seek sensor? I'm wagering that the lepton is also noisy, but they are integrating far more frames per second than the seek sensor is. This, I think, is the key to how clean and how sensitive the sensor can be. If they could figure out a way to grab more frames per second for integration, I'd buy another camera. No questions asked. 4 frames per integration just isn't good enough. They need to be running this sensor at 60. And I'm guessing the lepton is already there.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Also, in regards to theleft lepton, anyone have the actual fps of the scensor vs the fps of the seek sensor? I'm wagering that the lepton is also noisy, but they are integrating far more frames per second than the seek sensor is. This, I think, is the key to how clean and how sensitive the sensor can be. If they could figure out a way to grab more frames per second for integration, I'd buy another camera. No questions asked. 4 frames per integration just isn't good enough. They need to be running this sensor at 60. And I'm guessing the lepton is already there.

The Lepton data format implies a raw rate of 3x, but could be more - I've not had a chance to investigate further.
However I'm not sure increasing would make much difference - faster framerate would presumably reduce integration time, and therefore signal, so probably little or no benefit integrating more, noiser, frames. I'm sure there will be some nonlinearities involved in determining the optimum tradeoff  - as Seek appear to be running on the limits of everything I have no doubt that this as been optimised as much as possible already.
I would imagine the raw single frames from Seek would  look pretty dismal

 
 

[stak]

With the resolution of Seek at 206x156 (32,136) to Lepton 80x60 (4,800) is 6.7:1. That would allow FLIR to stack quite a few more images for the same throughput, minus overhead of managing the additional images. MSX is also hiding improving a lot. This link [wired.com] has side by side images of with and without MSX enabled and they give you quite a different impression.

[Uho]

I experimented with a sensor MLX9014. If you take the time less than 100ms - not exactly show the temperature. If the interval between measurements is less than 100ms - affects the previous measurement. I think that similar parameters and the matrix Seek. Only worse stability. In good matrix calibration is necessary after a few minutes of work. We Seek every 5 seconds.

[efahrenholz]

@Mike,

I'm actually curious about this issue. There would be trade offs, but I think a shorter integration (if they have the ability to even do so) might actually create a more stable image. Just hear me out...

So basically one thing I notice in particular, and you clearly identified, is a thermal drift. I'm chalking it up to low capacity pixels. The sensor heats up, but the pixel drifts a lot because it appears to change temperature quickly. So we see these blocks of various temperature differences, and I consider this noise as most would. A shorter integration time should decrease the thermal drift. Less time running power through the pixel, less time to produce heat, and thus less swing in pixel temp. Of course, you pointed out that this would also mean less time to heat the pixel from radiation. There's a trade off. But then you get more frames per average, reducing the noise floor and further reducing pixel drift of the signal. Also, better alignment of pixels per frame, so signal has a better shot at a averaging into the dataset. Remember most of the time the field of view isn't static. Even a slight shake of the hand will still throw off the average, blurring edges and lines, allowing random noise to outweigh the signal. As long as there is a measurable signal per frame, above the read noise, it should improve the image quality. It might reduce the minimum tempereture the sensor can detect. This is another trade off.

But hey, I'm just messing with the idea. I'm sure there is a flaw to this. I'm obviously missing a crucial part, otherwise I'd think they would have already done this. Or perhaps they already are taking the shortest integration they can. Maybe you are right, maybe the sensor is already at the limits of what can be done for the signal.

[WS-PI]

just an example what you can see with the SeeK and an additional ZnSe lens

http://youtu.be/-CgY2jAdXw4

[bobaru]

In case no one has seen this video yet, Ben Heckendorn from the Ben Heck Show, used the Seek camera in a new video he just released.   He was using it to monitor temperatures in an experiment on house chimney construction.



-bob

[Seeker]

Well, I'm not too impressed with this...gone all flakey again like last time. "Force stop" does nothing to snap it out of it.
Why don't I just wait for it to get in the mood for a spot of imaging...

[kakai248]

Hi,

Can this camera detect variations of temperature in the muscles of the face (like when you smile, the muscles contract and release heat)? Or is the thermal sensitivity too low?

I'm looking for the cheapest camera that can do this. However there aren't many selfies taken with these cameras 

FLIR One has a thermal sensitivity of 0.1ºC. I have a paper that did what I want to do but they used a professional camera with <0.02ºC sensitivity.
The closest I found is FLIR E6/E8 with <0.06ºC, however these cost +2500$.

Thanks

[Fraser]

@kakai248

Thermal cameras can see the blood flowing in an arm or similar but you are asking a lot for it to see the thermal change within a muscle that is not generating power and burning a lot of joules. A facial muscle is not a power muscle so the thermal gradient caused by movement will be masked by the skins normal thermal emissions with blood flow near the surface.

Thermography has been used in the medical profession, most recently in the search for persons with Ebola and running a temperature, also for imaging women's breasts in the hunt for anomalies in the tissue structures. A thermal camera is a pretty blunt tool even if you use one like my very expensive FLIR industrial types.

http://www.infraredscreening.com/medical-thermography-history.htm

http://www.flir.com/cs/emea/en/view/?id=41183

So no a SEEK is not up to the task, or anywhere near for that matter.

Aurora

[Uho]

We Seek sensitivity of less than 1 degree. This value can be worse. The theoretical sensitivity is not cooled thermal imagers can not be lower than 0.08. Anything less is just marketing. The noise is very large. In the manufacturer's specifications lie. I am convinced that with several matrices. I needed a thermal imager for medical research. I could not find anything at an affordable price. You need to get a photo -

[kakai248]

In this paper they used FLIR ThermaCAM SC3000 Quantum Well Infrared Photodetector, a pretty old camera (around year 2000 I think), to achieve this. However it seems that the camera was pretty good for that time.

The image I attached is in the paper. They managed to map the variations in the muscles of the face.

So it seems like it's possible, but I'm not sure what is the most cost effective camera to do something similar.

[Uho]

Used cooled detector. I have not heard about not cooled detectors with such sensitivity. Real. Maybe someone knows something. I also wonder.

[eneuro]

He was using it to monitor temperatures in an experiment on house chimney construction.

...and he got 10*F~5*C difference only because had no insulation no more when opened "model" box doors 

Anyway, I've did something like this for garden chimney in 1:1 scale 2 meters long and.. no air flow tunnels needed but fan on top of the chimney to make air movement from bottom to top  and of course temperature sensor on chimney output pipe to controll another fan -amount of air entering into fire (using DIP8 ATTiny85 MPU) , so it prevents overheating and keep its temperature safe

[Fraser]

I have a FLIR SC3000 in my collection. It was / is a very advanced scientific camera. Sadly mine is not for sale and a used one will still make an ugly dent in your bank account. They are also rare as hens teeth as FLIR did not make them for very long. It was 'state of the art' Quantum Well technology designed to be a very sensitive and advanced laboratory tool. Try to find a used QWIP thermal camera these days......they are very uncommon.

She is a stirling cooled camera with noise levels far below anything that an uncooled microbolometer can achieve whilst still maintaining full data integrity.

Don't think that a FLIR camera built in the late 1990's and early 2000's is not good....they still rock !

I note that the study used repetitive muscle movement and not just a single contraction of a muscle which is what I thought you were trying to observe. repetitive muscle activity does create heat, no doubt about it. You do need a decent low noise, high sensitivity thermal camera though so SEEK is still not the tool for the job.

Aurora

[encryptededdy]

The prices for the Seek are now the same on Amazon as on thermal.com (Amazon prices used to be $230+).

If you're looking for one, it's generally recommended you buy it from Amazon due to the horror stories with Seek's customer service.

However, unfortunately, still not international shipping

[IanB]

Thermography has been used in the medical profession, ... for imaging women's breasts in the hunt for anomalies in the tissue structures.

Hmm. I suspect such temperature differences could be detected more easily by touch, much as you can tell someone is running a temperature by touching their forehead. The human sensory system is extremely sensitive to temperatures, both by conduction and by radiation. For instance, it is amazing how good your cheek is at detecting heat radiation from warm bodies if you hold it close to a warm surface.

[efahrenholz]

You are not able to distinguish temperature at all. You can only sense that the object is warmer than you, or colder. Sensing differences in temperature as little as 2 degrees would be nearly impossible. It would take at least 10 degrees difference to feel a difference. There's a reason we use thermometers and IR cameras.

Imagine finding heat leaks in your house by touch alone. It would take ages. And it would only work of its a large difference. The human body is no different. It might take less time to map the body but a lot is guessing, like does it feel different? Not sure.

[IanB]

You are not able to distinguish temperature at all. You can only sense that the object is warmer than you, or colder. Sensing differences in temperature as little as 2 degrees would be nearly impossible. It would take at least 10 degrees difference to feel a difference. There's a reason we use thermometers and IR cameras.

Actually, sensing differences is generally more sensitive than sensing absolute values. You will find throughout mensuration that subtracting current measurements from a reference field is a good way to amplify variations and make them more visible. Thermocouples, for instance, measure the difference in temperature between a sensing junction and a reference junction, and this doesn't make them useless. They have enormous industrial relevance. So sensing whether something is warmer or colder than a reference temperature is very valuable.

Imagine finding heat leaks in your house by touch alone. It would take ages. And it would only work of its a large difference. The human body is no different. It might take less time to map the body but a lot is guessing, like does it feel different? Not sure.

Finding heat leaks in your house by feel is incredibly easy. Using thermal cameras to make pretty pictures of the leaks is fun, but is far from necessary. The main advantage of thermal cameras is the ability to survey large areas quickly and allow you to home in on the problem locations without a lot of searching. But if you have time, a point probe (your face and hands) will work just as well.

[efahrenholz]

Suit yourself. I don't have all day to find a leak, and I'm sure a contractor doesn't either.