EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[Don Hills]

Sure, but still a couple of orders of magnitude better than free air.

How good does it have to be? 1.5 volts out, 1.5 amps, worst efficiency maybe 70% or less depending on cell voltage = over 600 mW? 50 degrees C/W, assuming it's not allowed to get hot enough to burn fingers...

[Barny]

The paper is clearly to see at the bottom right.


Here you can see the bottom edge without battery:

[jippie]

The paper is clearly to see at the bottom right.
<SNIP>

Mehhh, I don't know, could equally well be the protective sleeve/label of the battery, maybe even looking at the "seem". Notice that there is text printed on the side, the red 'tab' could easily be part of a logo or so.

Another thought: The plastic case that the batterisers come in? Could be very well an off the shelf item, which is much cheaper than making your own.

[ccs46]

I wonder if batteriser has finally given up trying to fight us. Maybe they are trying to keep quiet now, so they can run off with the VC's investments when no ones looking! [emoji23]


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[lampbus]

I dont think its made of stainless steel.
Stainless steel is:
A.: Expensive
B.: Very difficult to solder

This thing is so thin that is has to be made of stainless steel. The springy version of it.
Stainless steel is the only material tough enough not to bend, rip or buckle.
If you have ever drilled holes into 1mm thick 1.4301 (for the yanks 316 grade SS) you know what I mean.
For the same reason solder stencils are made of stainless steel. The material of the sleeve won't be much different from that.
A rough estimate calculation of a 0.127mm thick sleeve for an AA battery comes up to around 4 grams.
Stainless steel costs roughly $10 per kg, so we are talking about 4 cents for a AA sleeve.
Don't quote me on that, the numbers are rather crude estimates, could be 2 cents, could be 10 cent. But somewhere around that.

Actually stainless steels are not that much different to mild steel in terms of 'strength' but like you say - they are a pain to machine. This is due to the low thermal conductivity and work hardening - results in blunt drills - like you I have been there, done that...

IF they use stainless steel, then it will be stamped from sheet keeping the laser for prototypes. They may use photo-chemical etching, but they will still need press tooling to form the final shape.

Sharp edges (mentioned elsewhere) can be removed by tumbling in ceramic beads (or similar) so thet powder coating will be OK around the edges.

[Fungus]

I wonder if batteriser has finally given up trying to fight us. Maybe they are trying to keep quiet now, so they can run off with the VC's investments when no ones looking! [emoji23]

Ran out of ideas, more like. I don't know what else they could say.

Thinking up stuff like the "current spikes causing premature shutdown" isn't easy. I wouldn't have thought of that.

(And this sort of thinking is what convinces me this is a deliberate con, the Batteroo Bros. are under no illusion that it actually works...)

[EEVblog]

Thinking up stuff like the "current spikes causing premature shutdown" isn't easy. I wouldn't have thought of that.

It's easy if you read this thread constantly!
Engineers like to throw out innocent little tidbits of info like that can be manipulated many ways if desired.

[EEVblog]

I wonder if batteriser has finally given up trying to fight us. Maybe they are trying to keep quiet now, so they can run off with the VC's investments when no ones looking!

They have to ship, the VC's are on the board and will demand progress. The next week or two will be telling when they should update backers on production progress. It's also telling if they don't...

[Godzil]

There is one thing I don't understand with that sort of start-up, apart from the distorded fact that is used as a basis for the main product.

Why such a small company with "so little money so they need VC and crowdsourcing" keep hiring so many expensive people that are here not for working on the product.

If I where to make a breakthrough device, I would hire a few highly skilled engineers and would not bother at all with marketing profiles, unless the business is somewhat secured, what is not the case here.

They are just basically burning money with that new roles and all the marketing fancy things they do.

Even without thinking about all the technical flaw they showed us, just this little things is a red alert from me. All the project I backed where project from small teams, of company a bit bigger (like Pebble) but they where all humble and all showed not to be burning money on marketing tidbit. I even pledge on two risky one which are the Tiko 3D printer and the 10$ CHIP, there is a bit of marketing for each, but also both wherent trying to hide anything, and was quite open on their product.

There is a clear and noticeable difference from thoses two startup (Next Things Co for the CHIP and Tiko for.. the Tiko) and what batteroo showed us., even before Dave's first video.

[LabSpokane]

I wonder if batteriser has finally given up trying to fight us. Maybe they are trying to keep quiet now, so they can run off with the VC's investments when no ones looking! [emoji23]


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I think we should refrain from accusing anyone of embezzlement or similar crimes.  As near as I can tell they are spending money on prototypes, marketing, etc. 

[drussell]

Yet another imprecise statement from Batteroo:



He is talking about lithium primary cells but then says they may work on one for lithium-ion batteries.  I hope it was a typo and he meant to say lithium-iron batteries, which are one of the chemistries used for disposable lithium primary cells but lithium-ion implies one of the rechargeable chemistries that allows ion exchange back and forth during the charge and discharge cycles.

The chemical makeup of primary cells and rechargeable secondary cells may be similar (like lithium and manganese dioxide being used in the typical CR-series button cell batteries vs. lithium manganese oxide "LMO" rechargeables in a laptop or phone) but the physical arrangement and construction is different (metallic lithium for the primary cells.)

These are not at all the same thing and certainly doesn't help instill any additional confidence in these people who love to tout how gloriously expert they are at all things battery chemistry and electrical engineering related and how little the rest of us know and understand... 

[SL4P]

The more I look at the animated/graphical mock ups, I realise Batterpoo are approaching the physical construction ass-backwards...
To minimise the overall length, they should allow the +V nub of the battery to protrude up through the top end of the Batteriser cap as the +V contact, and implement the cell-bypass within the 'flat' negative terminal end.  Why add length to the smallest, least variable part of the physical battery construction?
Where they actually put the boost circuitry is irrelevant - except for the voltage drop across the length of the sleeve as mentioned earlier.
I'm also still keen to see how it handles a string of cells.

[kezat]

I'm not sure if it was already mentioned but how long are the positive terminal tabs going to last? If the battery is installed end in like a flashlight or that keyboard it should be ok but if the battery is loaded from the side the little contacts are going to catch and bend/break. It's made worse by the slightly tighter fit because of the extra length. On a cheap product the contacts are sometimes made out of a flat spiral of wire, that will really catch the little metal fingers of the positive contacts.

Also anyone have a guess on how much current the boost converter will draw with no load, as soon a its clipped over a battery it will start draining the battery regardless if its installed in a device or even if the device is off.

[McBryce]

The more I look at the animated/graphical mock ups, I realise Batterpoo are approaching the physical construction ass-backwards...
To minimise the overall length, they should allow the +V nub of the battery to protrude up through the top end of the Batteriser cap as the +V contact, and implement the cell-bypass within the 'flat' negative terminal end.  Why add length to the smallest, least variable part of the physical battery construction?
Where they actually put the boost circuitry is irrelevant - except for the voltage drop across the length of the sleeve as mentioned earlier.
I'm also still keen to see how it handles a string of cells.

Maybe they have a component in series with the positive rail, in which case putting the electronics at the other end would still require a disconnect at the positive end?

McBryce.

[Fungus]

Also anyone have a guess on how much current the boost converter will draw with no load, as soon a its clipped over a battery it will start draining the battery regardless if its installed in a device or even if the device is off.

Keeping a tiny comparator alive to watch the output voltage would only need a microamp or so. It just has to give a pulse every now and again to top up the output capacitor when the voltage drops.

Nothing to worry about really (assuming they did it right).

[Rasz]

There is one thing I don't understand with that sort of start-up, apart from the distorded fact that is used as a basis for the main product.

Why such a small company with "so little money so they need VC and crowdsourcing" keep hiring so many expensive people that are here not for working on the product.

If I where to make a breakthrough device, I would hire a few highly skilled engineers and would not bother at all with marketing profiles, unless the business is somewhat secured, what is not the case here.

They are just basically burning money with that new roles and all the marketing fancy things they do.

Even without thinking about all the technical flaw they showed us, just this little things is a red alert from me. All the project I backed where project from small teams, of company a bit bigger (like Pebble) but they where all humble and all showed not to be burning money on marketing tidbit. I even pledge on two risky one which are the Tiko 3D printer and the 10$ CHIP, there is a bit of marketing for each, but also both wherent trying to hide anything, and was quite open on their product.

There is a clear and noticeable difference from thoses two startup (Next Things Co for the CHIP and Tiko for.. the Tiko) and what batteroo showed us., even before Dave's first video.

There is a difference between building a business you intent to grow and profit from, and building a business that appears legit for the sole purpose of selling it to some big sucker.

[ez24]

Only 3 days left to get your Izzer:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story

[ErikTheNorwegian]

The real big picture here, i think you all miss.. What Batteriser really are, is not a big scam on the product itself. That it is,  its just a tools for getting other VP's  to invest their own money, not  the crowdfounding,  into a Company. All these people got money that i recond they put into the Company in exchange for a position.  Then Ali  can get into more money from cash from these investors and partners.

[EEVblog]

There is one thing I don't understand with that sort of start-up, apart from the distorded fact that is used as a basis for the main product.
Why such a small company with "so little money so they need VC and crowdsourcing" keep hiring so many expensive people that are here not for working on the product.

Because they are building a startup business they can sell to the first taker. Impressions and big names on the board with big contacts are everything. Quite a common model for these "serial entrepreneurs".

[EEVblog]

Also anyone have a guess on how much current the boost converter will draw with no load, as soon a its clipped over a battery it will start draining the battery regardless if its installed in a device or even if the device is off.

Keeping a tiny comparator alive to watch the output voltage would only need a microamp or so. It just has to give a pulse every now and again to top up the output capacitor when the voltage drops.
Nothing to worry about really (assuming they did it right).

Yes, that's easy. They have said it draws in the order of uA, and I believe them. I don't think that will be a problem.

[EEVblog]

I wonder if batteriser has finally given up trying to fight us. Maybe they are trying to keep quiet now, so they can run off with the VC's investments when no ones looking! [emoji23]

I think we should refrain from accusing anyone of embezzlement or similar crimes.  As near as I can tell they are spending money on prototypes, marketing, etc.

Yes, that just adds fuel to the fire, and it's just not cricket.
Let's stick to the technical stuff.

[ccs46]

I wonder if batteriser has finally given up trying to fight us. Maybe they are trying to keep quiet now, so they can run off with the VC's investments when no ones looking! [emoji23]

I think we should refrain from accusing anyone of embezzlement or similar crimes.  As near as I can tell they are spending money on prototypes, marketing, etc.

Yes, that just adds fuel to the fire, and it's just not cricket.
Let's stick to the technical stuff.

Alright.


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[Don Hills]

Maybe they have a component in series with the positive rail, in which case putting the electronics at the other end would still require a disconnect at the positive end?

From a heat dissipation angle it might make sense to put the electronics at the negative end, the (mostly) flat surface of the negative terminal would make a good heatsink.  But it would make the cell a lot longer, whereas at the positive end they appear to be using the "shoulder" space around the positive terminal for the components so as to minimise the added length. But this leads to another problem, many devices have the positive contact recessed to prevent reverse polarity insertion - if you insert the cell backwards, the wide negative terminal is prevented from touching the device contact. Batteroo appear to have considered this, though - looking at the rotating exploded diagram posted recently, the new positive terminal appears to be a spring. So the circuit board will butt up against the "anti reverse polarity" shield, and the spring will reach up to touch the device contact.

[GoneTomorrow]

Yet another imprecise statement from Batteroo:



He is talking about lithium primary cells but then says they may work on one for lithium-ion batteries.  I hope it was a typo and he meant to say lithium-iron batteries, which are one of the chemistries used for disposable lithium primary cells but lithium-ion implies one of the rechargeable chemistries that allows ion exchange back and forth during the charge and discharge cycles.

The chemical makeup of primary cells and rechargeable secondary cells may be similar (like lithium and manganese dioxide being used in the typical CR-series button cell batteries vs. lithium manganese oxide "LMO" rechargeables in a laptop or phone) but the physical arrangement and construction is different (metallic lithium for the primary cells.)

These are not at all the same thing and certainly doesn't help instill any additional confidence in these people who love to tout how gloriously expert they are at all things battery chemistry and electrical engineering related and how little the rest of us know and understand... 

Putting anything Batteriser-like makes no sense on rechargeable (especially lithium-ion) cells. Without appropriate cut-off measures, it's going to well overdischarge rechargeable cells and pretty much ruin them instantly. But with appropriate cut-off, it's not really going to make a sod of difference (probably make it worse) since most products designed for rechargeable cells are going to cutoff around that voltage anyway.

[_Sin]

And you know, they're rechargeable, so the amount left in the battery is irrelevant.

Plus if there's a laptop that doesn't squeeze the most runtime from its battery back, you need a new laptop, not some widget that would need to be custom designed for pretty much every individual machine, assuming it could be fitted at all.