EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[Fungus]

Another day goes by and nobody in the USA seems to have received a Batteriser.

(or anywhere else)

I think it's safe to assume that the guy in Darwin received one of last year's "press packs" that Bob promised to send out to people.

[EEVblog]

Could someone explain me what Bob is trying to say in the video time 8:14 - 9:40:
https://youtu.be/622uCZ_pE0w?t=494
Yes, by applying a constant current of 100mA, we will get the red line displaying the battery voltage as a function of time. But then he draws the rectangular and says something that doesn't make any sense at all. That Bob's misunderstanding is the reason why he thinks that the Batteriser will work, and that is the reason why the Batteriser will fail. He even got it documented very nicely.

For a constant current load, it is simply a function of time, so you can look at it that way as just a % time function if you want. He conveniently does not mention constant power load though. He also uses the example of 50% in order to exaggerate his claim. To get that 50% time cutoff figure your product would have to have a cutoff of 1.2V or greater for a reasonable current. Most products don't do this of course.

[EEVblog]

Another day goes by and nobody in the USA seems to have received a Batteriser.
(or anywhere else)
I think it's safe to assume that the guy in Darwin received one of last year's "press packs" that Bob promised to send out to people.

Another week goes by.

[EEVblog]

I have a clock that stops working when the battery voltage gets below about 1.25 V. I think this would be the perfect application for the Batteriser. A voltage sensitive device with a very low current draw and a high cut-off voltage.

Sure.... unless the quiescent current of a Batteriser would drain the battery first.

They originally claimed use in remote controls etc, but they later admitted they should not be used in low power devices

[AmmoJammo]

They originally claimed use in remote controls etc, but they later admitted they should not be used in low power devices

They also then admitted the original version couldn't supply the current needed for higher powered devices, so apparently went about redesigning it.... 

[Howardlong]

I have a clock that stops working when the battery voltage gets below about 1.25 V. I think this would be the perfect application for the Batteriser. A voltage sensitive device with a very low current draw and a high cut-off voltage.

Sure.... unless the quiescent current of a Batteriser would drain the battery first.

They originally claimed use in remote controls etc, but they later admitted they should not be used in low power devices

I can't remember what their recommended use case was in the end, i.e. do you use them all the time, or only when the cell appears exhausted in a given application?

[Kalvin]

Could someone explain me what Bob is trying to say in the video time 8:14 - 9:40:
https://youtu.be/622uCZ_pE0w?t=494
Yes, by applying a constant current of 100mA, we will get the red line displaying the battery voltage as a function of time. But then he draws the rectangular and says something that doesn't make any sense at all. That Bob's misunderstanding is the reason why he thinks that the Batteriser will work, and that is the reason why the Batteriser will fail. He even got it documented very nicely.

For a constant current load, it is simply a function of time, so you can look at it that way as just a % time function if you want. He conveniently does not mention constant power load though. He also uses the example of 50% in order to exaggerate his claim. To get that 50% time cutoff figure your product would have to have a cutoff of 1.2V or greater for a reasonable current. Most products don't do this of course.

More importantly, according to the video segment title, he was supposed to explain the [remaining] energy in the battery. He didn't seem to understand that the battery voltage is as equally important as the current when talking about the energy.

The total energy in the battery = time integral of instantaneous power  = time integral of p(t) = time integral of (instantaneous voltage * instantaneous current) = time integral of ( v(t) * i(t) ) = the area under the red curve. Although he insists otherwise.

It is possible that he still doesn't understand this as he hasn't posted any correction to the video. Well, if he did correct his mistake, basically there wouldn't be a Batteriser any more.

[EEVblog]

I can't remember what their recommended use case was in the end, i.e. do you use them all the time, or only when the cell appears exhausted in a given application?

But IIRC they admitted at one point that the best case usage scenario is when you put it on a dead battery

[Muttley Snickers]

You might have to find a happy medium, or a psychic, or something as my breadboard is on the blink.   

I do know this though, some people who believed got touched from beyond.   

[Fungus]

I can't remember what their recommended use case was in the end, i.e. do you use them all the time, or only when the cell appears exhausted in a given application?

They're worse in all types of load. Constant resistance, constant power, constant current...

Ye cannae change the laws of physics.

There might be specific devices which benefit due to the altered voltage curve but they'll be few and far between. It's certainly not something that should be sold to the unwashed masses for use in all their devices.

[timb]

Again IIRC they claimed to have surveyed a range of batteries people discard and some still had most of their energy remaining.

No, they quoted someone else's reasearch into "discarded" cells without any regard for the reasons why those cells had been discarded or properly analyzing the data. 

Don't face palm me. You've taken my quote out of the context it was placed in and ignored the clear qualification that I was relying on an uncertain recollection.
The context was that cells were discarded with considerable energy remaining and people threw them out. Yes they didn't study the reasons.(if you say so) I'm not defending Batterroo. I'm suggesting there is a drift around here away from the original campaign claims and since they were sufficiently outlandish there is no need to embelish them.

Calm down...

He's not face palming *you*; his face palm was directed at what he said, I.e., the fact Bateroo quoted someone else's research out of context.

Furthermore, he didn't quote *you* out of context, either. He snipped your quote to reply to that specific part. He was just clarifying your uncertain recollection.

[Kalvin]

The reason for discarding the good batteries may be very simple. I have no data to back me up, though, so this is just guessing: Let's say you have a gadget using four AA batteries. You take a fresh package of four AA batteries and insert the batteries into the gadget. When using the gadget, the batteries may not drain evenly. When the gadget stops working, the best battery or best two batteries may still have considerable amount of unused energy left. However, it is easier to replace the all four batteries rather than trying to figure out which batteries are still usable - and how much energy there is still available before you need to change the batteries again. Using the Batteriser will not help here either, because in practice you still need to replace all four batteries at the same time as you do not know the state of the individual battery. With a gadget using only one battery the situation is a bit simpler.

[IanB]

The reason for discarding the good batteries may be very simple. I have no data to back me up, though, so this is just guessing: Let's say you have a gadget using four AA batteries. You take a fresh package of four AA batteries and insert the batteries into the gadget. When using the gadget, the batteries may not drain evenly. When the gadget stops working, the best battery or best two batteries may still have considerable amount of unused energy left. However, it is easier to replace the all four batteries rather than trying to figure out which batteries are still usable - and how much energy there is still available before you need to change the batteries again. Using the Batteriser will not help here either, because in practice you still need to replace all four batteries at the same time as you do not know the state of the individual battery. With a gadget using only one battery the situation is a bit simpler.

It is very unlikely the batteries will drain unevenly if they are connected in series. But even if they did, it has long been emphasized that you shouldn't replace only some batteries in a set. If you do that the weaker batteries are very likely to leak.

The most common use case where partially depleted batteries are routinely discarded is in critical reliability applications. If the battery must not fail unexpectedly you always start out with fresh batteries regardless of how little use the existing batteries have seen. One example might be wireless microphones in a stage play. Medical applications could be another. Battery extenders are not applicable to these scenarios.

[Kalvin]

The reason for discarding the good batteries may be very simple. I have no data to back me up, though, so this is just guessing: Let's say you have a gadget using four AA batteries. You take a fresh package of four AA batteries and insert the batteries into the gadget. When using the gadget, the batteries may not drain evenly. When the gadget stops working, the best battery or best two batteries may still have considerable amount of unused energy left. However, it is easier to replace the all four batteries rather than trying to figure out which batteries are still usable - and how much energy there is still available before you need to change the batteries again. Using the Batteriser will not help here either, because in practice you still need to replace all four batteries at the same time as you do not know the state of the individual battery. With a gadget using only one battery the situation is a bit simpler.

It is very unlikely the batteries will drain unevenly if they are connected in series. But even if they did, it has long been emphasized that you shouldn't replace only some batteries in a set. If you do that the weaker batteries are very likely to leak.

The most common use case where partially depleted batteries are routinely discarded is in critical reliability applications. If the battery must not fail unexpectedly you always start out with fresh batteries regardless of how little use the existing batteries have seen. One example might be wireless microphones in a stage play. Medical applications could be another. Battery extenders are not applicable to these scenarios.

Yes, I totally agree. Your explanation makes 100% sense. For example, If I were to go hiking and need to make sure that my flashlight will not go out of business in the middle of the night, I would definitely make sure that it has new set of batteries, unless I am absolutely sure that the current batteries are still good. If I would have any doubt, I would just replace the batteries, even if ending up discarding perfectly good set of batteries.

[EEVblog]

Again IIRC they claimed to have surveyed a range of batteries people discard and some still had most of their energy remaining.

No, they quoted someone else's reasearch into "discarded" cells without any regard for the reasons why those cells had been discarded or properly analyzing the data. 

Correct. And they got that link to that paper from this forum!
It must have been like finding gold for them. Well, gold that they can wrongly quote mine anyway.
Yes, they completely and very deliberately interpreted the data from that report in a way that benefited their case. Didn't matter that they were completely wrong, they can point to independent data and say "I told you so!, people throw away mostly fully charged batteries!, look at this report!" 

[EEVblog]

Yes, I totally agree. Your explanation makes 100% sense. For example, If I were to go hiking and need to make sure that my flashlight will not go out of business in the middle of the night, I would definitely make sure that it has new set of batteries, unless I am absolutely sure that the current batteries are still good. If I would have any doubt, I would just replace the batteries, even if ending up discarding perfectly good set of batteries.

And that's the trick. Most people love the idea of the Batteriser, but in practice they aren't going to carry them around and use them.
Few people want to whack a mostly dead battery back in with an unknown lifetime, they's rather stic in a new batter and know what time they are going to get. Most people would choose the latter option every time.

[quad]

yet another?

[ez24]

yet another?

Proof positive they work !   Umm Wayne has been quite?

[Macbeth]

Did it clean his teeth? 

[drussell]

Again IIRC they claimed to have surveyed a range of batteries people discard and some still had most of their energy remaining.

No, they quoted someone else's reasearch into "discarded" cells without any regard for the reasons why those cells had been discarded or properly analyzing the data. 

Don't face palm me.

No, no, no...  My apologies....  You misunderstand...  The :facepalm: was for THEM!!!

I realize you know what you're talking about but many people reading the tail end of this thread may not realize the facts due to the loss of context.

[Brumby]

Proof positive they work !   Umm Wayne has been quite?

We don't know what communication has been happening with Wayne.

[digsys]

   We don't know what communication has been happening with Wayne. 

I have reliable info that his batteries are flat, and is waiting for replacements :-)

[PeterL]

yet another?

Do electric toothbrushes even exist? If I had to guess how long my own toothbrush would run on alkaline's I'd say a couple of days tops. That would be horrible inefficient, even if the batteriser could extract 8x more life out of it.

[EEVblog]

Do electric toothbrushes even exist? If I had to guess how long my own toothbrush would run on alkaline's I'd say a couple of days tops. That would be horrible inefficient, even if the batteriser could extract 8x more life out of it.

Most people use rechargeable ones.

[PeterL]

Most people use rechargeable ones.

Yeah sorry, what I meant was ones with replaceable batteries?  I only know the Braun/OralB and Philips ones.
I have one similar to that in your teardown, and if it ran on alkaline's it would easily chew through 50 batteries a year. That makes no sense to me.

So toothbrushes that run on replaceable batteries? anyone?