EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[hauptbr09]

That response from Batteriser just makes me want to go and get one of these GPS's and repeat the test myself...

Dave, please do. Nothing against +5ky, but repeatability is always key. Just let it run in the background while doing something else. Maybe an in depth teardown of the G3??

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[LabSpokane]

Here's a startup that burned through $170M in six years:

http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2015/09/22/quirky-failure-among-largest-venture-backed-startup-flops/?mod=newsreel

Here's a great quote:

Quirky also couldn’t keep costs under control while attempting to manufacture dozens of products at a time, said another person familiar with the situation. Many of the products were financially under water, and Quirky had to absorb the cost of discarded products that malfunctioned, as well as unsold inventory, the person said. The scale of its manufacturing operation was too small to justify those costs, the person said.

Even as the company saw the limits of its business model, its decision-makers were hopeful that the next products in its pipeline would be big winners and turn things around.

Ultimately, the company pivoted to having large manufacturing partners take on the production and retail distribution on its behalf and pay it royalties, but that shift came too late, the person said. The company needed to raise up to $50 million in capital, but when it went out to the market to investors they were reluctant, and Quirky ran out of cash, the person said.

[5ky]

That response from Batteriser just makes me want to go and get one of these GPS's and repeat the test myself...

say the word and the G3 will be on its way to 'STRALYA

[AmmoJammo]

How much extra current does the gps actually take with the back light on, vs when it's off?

You can pretty easily figure out a rough run time based on its measured power draw (with the back light full brightness), the measured cut off voltage, and compare it to the constant power run time given in the duracell data sheet.

[5ky]

How much extra current does the gps actually take with the back light on, vs when it's off?

You can pretty easily figure out a rough run time based on its measured power draw (with the back light full brightness), the measured cut off voltage, and compare it to the constant power run time given in the duracell data sheet.

140 mA with backlight on, down to about 85 mA with the backlight dimmed

It's constant power so it's 250 mW with backlight dimmed, and 420 mW with the backlight on

[CaptCrash]

That response from Batteriser just makes me want to go and get one of these GPS's and repeat the test myself...

say the word and the G3 will be on its way to 'STRALYA

It would be a better idea to source a separate G3 to ensure that there can be no claim, that this is an unusual unit or has been doctored in some way.

Im not saying that the one 5ky have is bad, I'm just making a point that having tests from two unrelated units (possibly with differering firmware, build batches etc) would help to pile on the evidence.

btw, excellent work 5ky on your testing and congrats Dave on the excellent videos and presentation of information.

[IanP]

Have you seen this https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/battery-squeeze-make-flat-aa-batteries-work-again#/story.
Some very interesting claims made in their extremely poor campaign video and story

One flat batter last 6 weeks. Insert two and will give light for 12 weeks

A light that runs 24/7 for 12 weeks on already flat batteries, can't be a very bright light.

[NoItAint]

UL blew the test
http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_ULReport_GPSDevice.pdf

Results they say
"Test without Batteriser: Test was terminated at 1 hour 43 minutes due to Garmin GPS shutting down."
"Test with Batteriser: Test was terminated at 10 hours 12 minutes due to Garmin GPS shutting down."

UL clearly says "shutting down" and nothing about displaying a "low battery" condition.

In 5ky time-lapse test the GPS clearly goes through a low battery warning well before the GPS shuts down.  This is just as others have reported for the GPS. 

UL should have reported a "low battery" condition before the "shutdown".  They didn't.  The test is suspect.

If I was on the Batteriser team I'd ask for my money back from UL. UL obviously missed the low battery warning.  Purely shoddy testmanship from UL 

[IanP]

Maybe the constant screen tapping shook a battery or a wire loose after 1 hour 43, that would explain the early shutdown 

[Godzil]

Or it break the screen making the device "shutdown" as it no longer display anything?

[AmmoJammo]

How much extra current does the gps actually take with the back light on, vs when it's off?

You can pretty easily figure out a rough run time based on its measured power draw (with the back light full brightness), the measured cut off voltage, and compare it to the constant power run time given in the duracell data sheet.

140 mA with backlight on, down to about 85 mA with the backlight dimmed

It's constant power so it's 250 mW with backlight dimmed, and 420 mW with the backlight on

The back light warning seem to come on, and it changed to power saving mode at about 1.225volts per cell.... based on your graph? (I didn't go back and find the exact figure you quoted)

Based on the Duracell datasheet, with a 420mW load, you would expect two cells to last about 5.5 - 6 hours before reaching this voltage, and switching modes, your graph shows about 6 - 6.5hours.

If the GPS was only drawing 250mW for its entire run time, with a cut off voltage of 1.05volts per cell (that your graph seems to suggest) you can expect a run time of over 18 hours...

So I'm not sure why butteriser see it as so far fetched to get a 17 hours run time...

[Mr.B]

Have you seen this https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/battery-squeeze-make-flat-aa-batteries-work-again#/story.
Some very interesting claims made in their extremely poor campaign video and story

One flat batter last 6 weeks. Insert two and will give light for 12 weeks

A light that runs 24/7 for 12 weeks on already flat batteries, can't be a very bright light.

Honestly, this has to be a piss-take on Batteriser...

The campaign video is worse than I could ever produce and I have no experience in video production.
They quote "In 2009 or 2008 we (3 recently made redundant scientists) had a light bulb moment. Since then we have tried to sell the invention"...
So he cannot remember when that light bulb moment occurred and clearly does not date his notes.
I thought every engineer or scientist of any discipline dated notes.
Do a 'whois' lookup on their domain and the domain was created in June 2015...
Any 6 year old kid can build a joule thief, it is well documented in numerous forms on the net.

Surely this is a Batteriser piss-take...

Maybe I am wrong.

[Fungus]

Honestly, this has to be a piss-take on Batteriser...

Price in pounds? Check.

Yep, that's British humour (really!)

[GNU_Ninja]

Have you seen this https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/battery-squeeze-make-flat-aa-batteries-work-again#/story.
Some very interesting claims made in their extremely poor campaign video and story

One flat batter last 6 weeks. Insert two and will give light for 12 weeks

A light that runs 24/7 for 12 weeks on already flat batteries, can't be a very bright light.

Looks like Batteroo have some competition. Now why didn't I think of that! 

[Mr.B]

Yep, that's British humour (really!)

Sorry, I don't get your point Fungus...

Maybe it is just that I am so exhausted from such a long week.

[Fungus]

Yep, that's British humour (really!)

Sorry, I don't get your point Fungus...

Point: Somebody in Britain thought it would be funny to do that.

[Fungus]

So I'm not sure why butteriser see it as so far fetched to get a 17 hours run time...

Because they're lying to people, that's why.

[Galenbo]

...The biggest mistake they made was to try and defend their (ever changing) technical claims, they should have just kept quiet and most likely everyone would have forgotten all about it.

+1, the debunk would have stayed between techical people, and outside the CEO/sales/mgmt world.

[Galenbo]

I think Ali is my favorite of the Batteroo Brothers. Very quotable.

He was better before his media training, when still posting under multiple pseudonyms.

[samgab]

That response from Batteriser just makes me want to go and get one of these GPS's and repeat the test myself...

Where's the thumbs up button on this blog... Oh, here it is: 

[FrankBuss]

That response from Batteriser just makes me want to go and get one of these GPS's and repeat the test myself...

say the word and the G3 will be on its way to 'STRALYA

I'm sure then they would say that it was not an original device. What, Dave didn't test the GPS function? Probably was desoldered for longer battery life time

[Mr.B]

Yep, that's British humour (really!)

Sorry, I don't get your point Fungus...

Point: Somebody in Britain thought it would be funny to do that.

Thank for clarifying.
I thought that exactly, but your comment made me second guess myself.

Medication and bed now...

[Muttley Snickers]

That response from Batteriser just makes me want to go and get one of these GPS's and repeat the test myself...

Funny thing really, I was in at a cash thieves shop down here last week and they had a brand new Garmin G3 Golf in the box for eighty bucks, I pulled it out and had a look and was so impressed that when I got home the first thing I did was searched for video reviews all of which by the way indicated around fifteen hours of use.

Anyway I was tenpted but walked out with an AEG 1300 watt sabre saw instead, handy for cutting sandwiches you know, I can go back or ring them to see if it's still there but this whole thing is almost over and I think that Sky did more than enough already, your call.

They are only handy if you play golf as the course layouts are down loaded into the unit and they can also tally up your shot count, I wanted to ask Sky if they save the shot count after the batteries die as that might be awkward in a serious match, anyway no good for general GPS usage just for ball whackers.

[Joule Thief]

That response from Batteriser just makes me want to go and get one of these GPS's and repeat the test myself...

waste of time

the 15 to 17 hour difference is ~ a 15% variance, not a 600% variance their test results indicated.

The 15% could easily be the difference of battery manufacturer used in their tests versus 5KY's test. Most of the difference is likely an "under promise and over deliver" factor in Garmin's claim for battery life.

[Godzil]

Anyway I was tenpted but walked out with an AEG 1300 watt sabre saw instead, handy for cutting sandwiches you know

That's a really neat idea!