Covid 19 virus

[Cerebus]

As far as cleaning masks for reuse goes: Hospitals used to reuse a lot of things, fabric masks and so on, but in recent history medical equipment has moved from reuse (with suitable cleaning) to single use disposable items. Hospitals used to have huge banks of autoclaves and staff that knew how to use them - now, I just don't know if they have anything more than the most minimal facilities for handling reusable surgical instruments.

On the subject of cleaning masks for home reuse, jury rigging an autoclave is a real practical possibility. Basically anyone that has a pressure cooker has an autoclave. Put some water in the bottom, put something suitable in as a shelf to keep items above the (boiling) water level. Put in items to be sterilised, close, run up to pressure, leave there 30 minutes (a pure guess, research needed), leave to cool down, decant sterile items.

When you stack up a proper autoclave you put items to be sterilised inside paper bags which are then sealed with specialised autoclave tape. Autoclave tape will withstand the heat and moisture, often has an indicator that shows whether it has been through an autoclave cycle, and seals the bag afterward, keeping the contents sterile. If jury rigging, masking tape might work.  A typical lab autoclave cycle is anything from 30 minutes to overnight depending on what you're sterilising from a tray of small instruments up to 2 litre bottles full of culture medium.

[peter-h]

"Therefore your Country needs ALL CITIZENS shall wear the DIY face mask when outside of home."

That's way too simplistic.

If you live in a packed city then yes.

If you live in the countryside, or are in the countryside, or are anywhere where there is nobody around (say an empty street) then wearing a mask is pointless.

The problem is that most of the general public are totally clueless about just about anything beyond how to eat a Big Mac, and reproduce. Here in the UK we have just had a big clampdown and it came a day after they got restaurants etc to shut. Millions thought it was a great holiday and went out in big crowds, everywhere, including the countryside which was packed. No way was the 2m spacing observed.

You could tell the public 1000 times how this thing is spread and they still won't get it. Most people are totally clueless about basic hygiene; sit in a cafe and watch them touch all the toilet door handles and then eat with their hands. Washing hands in the toilet isn't much good if you then touch the door handle. But most people will never get this. If there is something going around which you really don't watch to catch (like this thing) then you have to use smarter procedures and actually think about how this works.

Here we have mostly pretty smart people but out there...??

[iMo]

https://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/3075289/china-boosts-face-mask-production-capacity-450-cent-month

Total daily capacity rose to 110 million from 20 million in February with 3,000 new entrants; China made half of the global output in 2019
Carmakers BYD and SAIC, iPhone assembler Foxconn and oil company Sinopec are among ‘new faces’ in the industry
China's daily output of face masks reached 116 million units as of Saturday, 12 times the figure reported on Feb. 1 as factories of all stripes crank up new production lines to meet a surge in demands, the National Development and Reform Commission said
The biggest public health crisis in two decades has enticed 3,000 newcomers to the industry this year, according to Sina news portal, adding to a field of 4,000 who produced 4.2 billion face masks last year or half the world’s output, according to government data.

[SiliconWizard]

Counter evidence: Everyone in Singapore wears a mask - it works. Everyone in Wuhan, maybe all of China wears a mask - it works. Make it clear to people _why_ they're wearing a mask and that it's not for self-protection and that it doesn't replace social distancing. Works everywhere in the world except the USA? I cannot believe that.

Yep. As we have said multiple times, the places where it doesn't work is conveniently where mask stocks are too low.

[iMo]

Now, let us assume we are all here on the EEVblog people who can "count till 10" 

When a "barrier" consisting of 2+ layers of a fabric/textile sheets would decrease the number of infectious droplets flying OUT your mouth or nose by 30% (that is only 1/3 of claimed efficiency by some "experts"), would the R0
1. increase
2. stay unchanged
3. decrease
?

[thinkfat]

Counter evidence: Everyone in Singapore wears a mask - it works. Everyone in Wuhan, maybe all of China wears a mask - it works. Make it clear to people _why_ they're wearing a mask and that it's not for self-protection and that it doesn't replace social distancing. Works everywhere in the world except the USA? I cannot believe that.

Does it work? That's assuming a fair bit of causality where there may be none. Meanwhile the behaviour of people I referred to has been actually researched by the CDC. If they recommend masks then go ahead but thinking you're doing good while you may be doing a lot of harm isn't what we need right now.

I don't get it. Everybody, especially in the USA, have been using scare tactics to get people moving. Nothing moves people quicker than fear. But this virus has been played down by everyone to the level of "a bad cold" and even with the evidence from Italy and Spain in front of their very eyes, they claim "it cannot happen here, because!".

[BravoV]

Counter evidence: Everyone in Singapore wears a mask - it works. Everyone in Wuhan, maybe all of China wears a mask - it works. Make it clear to people _why_ they're wearing a mask and that it's not for self-protection and that it doesn't replace social distancing. Works everywhere in the world except the USA? I cannot believe that.

Does it work? That's assuming a fair bit of causality where there may be none. Meanwhile the behaviour of people I referred to has been actually researched by the CDC. If they recommend masks then go ahead but thinking you're doing good while you may be doing a lot of harm isn't what we need right now.

I don't get it. Everybody, especially in the USA, have been using scare tactics to get people moving. Nothing moves people quicker than fear. But this virus has been played down by everyone to the level of "a bad cold" and even with the evidence from Italy and Spain in front of their very eyes, they claim "it cannot happen here, because!".

The problem is, their leader already claimed 1st in advanced and proudly, that this virus will eventually gone by it self in just next few months, and also shouted out loud that the virus histeria is used by his political opposition to hurt him.

So what do you expect ? When the next real threats and new dangerously escalating situations popping out, the strong and fanatic supporters will still see these as fake news. 

[SiliconWizard]

Counter evidence: Everyone in Singapore wears a mask - it works. Everyone in Wuhan, maybe all of China wears a mask - it works. Make it clear to people _why_ they're wearing a mask and that it's not for self-protection and that it doesn't replace social distancing. Works everywhere in the world except the USA? I cannot believe that.

Does it work? That's assuming a fair bit of causality where there may be none. Meanwhile the behaviour of people I referred to has been actually researched by the CDC. If they recommend masks then go ahead but thinking you're doing good while you may be doing a lot of harm isn't what we need right now.

In South Korea, there was no real confinement to speak of - from all witnessing I've got, people were almost living their lives as usual, few shops/companies shut down, and almost everyone with a mask. Meanwhile, we keep saying it doesn't work, yet we had to confine people in a lot stricter way than they ever did in SK, and we still don't know what's going to happen.

Oh, and if masks don't work, why do all the medical practitioners currently wear one? Explain the conundrum.

[SilverSolder]

Oh, and if masks don't work, why do all the medical practitioners currently wear one? Explain the conundrum.

[irony mode on]  Do medical practitioners know what they are doing???    Typical, wasting our hard earned resources on unnecessary vanity purchases!!  [irony mode off]

[Cerebus]

Oh, and if masks don't work, why do all the medical practitioners currently wear one? Explain the conundrum.

Do you have evidence for this assertion or is it just an assumption?

[SilverSolder]

Oh, and if masks don't work, why do all the medical practitioners currently wear one? Explain the conundrum.

Do you have evidence for this assertion or is it just an assumption?

Never seen doctors and nurses wear masks in operating theaters etc.?  Not sure what point you are trying to make...

[SiliconWizard]

Oh, and if masks don't work, why do all the medical practitioners currently wear one? Explain the conundrum.

Do you have evidence for this assertion or is it just an assumption?

I absolutely do have evidence.

But maybe it's just all a sad costume party?

[BravoV]

-> Nigeria records chloroquine poisoning after Trump endorses it for coronavirus treatment

-> Fearing coronavirus, Arizona man dies after taking a form of chloroquine used to treat aquariums

[Sal Ammoniac]

-> Fearing coronavirus, Arizona man dies after taking a form of chloroquine used to treat aquariums

More chlorine for the gene pool...

[Cerebus]

Oh, and if masks don't work, why do all the medical practitioners currently wear one? Explain the conundrum.

Do you have evidence for this assertion or is it just an assumption?

I absolutely do have evidence.

Well I'd be interested to see it, because I took the trouble to check the CDC recommendations for infection control (the CDC ones simply because they were easy to find, follow links here [url=https://www.cdc.gov/hai/prevent/ppe.html]https://www.cdc.gov/hai/prevent/ppe.html[/url]) and these do not recommend the routine wearing of masks by medical staff for infection control, only in specific circumstances. Next to each recommendation they call out the strength of the evidential basis for that recommendation. Folks here are treating masks as some kind of magic panacea, they are not. The CDC do recommend giving masks to patients who have or may have a infection that is airborne. They do recommend medical personnel to wear masks and face shields when undertaking some procedures vis: "procedures and patient-care activities that are likely to generate splashes or sprays of blood, body fluids, secretions and excretions" and "During aerosol-generating procedures (e.g., bronchoscopy, suctioning of the respiratory tract , endotracheal intubation) in patients who are not suspected of being infected with an agent for which respiratory protection is otherwise recommended (e.g., M. tuberculosis, SARS or hemorrhagic fever viruses), wear one of the following: a face shield that fully covers the front and sides of the face, a mask with attached shield, or a mask and goggles (in addition to gloves and gown)". They do recommend wearing masks when treating patients with certain respiratory diseases (partially called out above).

Masks are not called for in medical settings anywhere near as much as you'd imagine if you get your information from stock photography and film and television drama. I can't remember the last time I saw a real live doctor or nurse wearing a mask in real life - including lying on my back in A&E/resus/on wards watching other patients being treated around me.

In a pandemic situation I imagine that a lot of medical personnel are wearing masks as a routine precaution, but that doesn't necessarily imply that there's a good evidential basis for doing so - amazingly doctors and nurses are as susceptible to cargo cults as much as the rest of us. There is evidence to follow a recommendation to use one when actively treating a patient with a suspected or known serious respiratory infection.

[Mr. Scram]

In South Korea, there was no real confinement to speak of - from all witnessing I've got, people were almost living their lives as usual, few shops/companies shut down, and almost everyone with a mask. Meanwhile, we keep saying it doesn't work, yet we had to confine people in a lot stricter way than they ever did in SK, and we still don't know what's going to happen.

Oh, and if masks don't work, why do all the medical practitioners currently wear one? Explain the conundrum.

The reason for any difference should be abundantly clear. Not only do medics know they're actually in close contact with the airborne virus, crucially they're also properly trained and have the discipline to properly implement their training. Meanwhile, the medical industry has huge trouble getting people to adhere to even the most basic instructions. You know what they say about making things idiot proof.

Just pointing at masks and speculating that must be the reason things were different in South Korea is dangerous unless you're very sure that's true. Just a few idiots adding to the problem would have a massive fallout. Expecting the public at large to behave on par with well trained medical professionals is inviting disaster. The food industry has trouble with it so there really is no hope.

I don't think the proponents of masks understand that in some medical laboratories gloves are actually prohibited for general use as a measure to promote better hand hygiene. What you intuitively think is better and what actually is better aren't always the same. Don't just do something just to do something and because it makes you feel better about things.

[PlainName]

Unfortunately there's a small portion who become gravely ill

About 20% isn't it? And an similarly small portion of those that will die even after treatment. If it were just those numbers one could be forgiven for considering the risk pretty low.

The trouble with this is that those 20% who would just have a bad time and recover only do so with the help of ICU. Once the hospitals run out of resources those 20% are going to be lucky to live. And they'll be taking non-CV patients with them that would ordinarily have survived whatever they're suffering from but now won't because there is no health service available to treat them.

[nctnico]

Oh, and if masks don't work, why do all the medical practitioners currently wear one? Explain the conundrum.

The point is that medical practitioners know how to use masks properly. The general public does not and that likely causes more harm than good. A mask has a limited useful life, needs to be handled right, disposed right, etc. It is pretty much the same discussion when isolation transformers come into play. If you drill down deeper you'll see that there are a lot of (not so obvious) conditions that need to be met for an isolation transformer to increase safety instead of actually reducing safety.

See these mask wearing guidelines from the WHO:
https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks
Quote from the top video 'If you do not have symptoms then don't use a mask because there is no evidence it protects you'.

[Mr. Scram]

About 20% isn't it? And an similarly small portion of those that will die even after treatment. If it were just those numbers one could be forgiven for considering the risk pretty low.

The trouble with this is that those 20% who would just have a bad time and recover only do so with the help of ICU. Once the hospitals run out of resources those 20% are going to be lucky to live. And they'll be taking non-CV patients with them that would ordinarily have survived whatever they're suffering from but now won't because there is no health service available to treat them.

As far as I know the percentage is much smaller for people <60 and probably a bit bigger for those over 70. That's of the known cases. It appears the total number is between 0% and 5% but that number is still being assessed.

[Bud]

Oh-oh

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-24/youtube-to-limit-video-quality-around-the-world-for-a-month

[drussell]

Oh-oh

The default quality.  You can still change it manually.

I believe Netflix was doing something similar in some areas.

[Bud]

I do not think i can change youtube quality on my TV.

[paulca]

A quote that has haunted me for days. 

It seems totally incredible to me now that everyone spent that evening as though it were just like any other. From the railway station came the sound of shunting trains, ringing and rumbling, softened almost into melody by the distance. It all seemed so safe and tranquil...

Around me, the daily routine of life; working, eating, sleeping, was continuing serenely as it had for countless years.

H.G.Wells - War of the Worlds - Jeff Wayne adaption - The Eve of the War | Horsell Common

[nctnico]

A quote that has haunted me for days. 

It seems totally incredible to me now that everyone spent that evening as though it were just like any other. From the railway station came the sound of shunting trains, ringing and rumbling, softened almost into melody by the distance. It all seemed so safe and tranquil...

Around me, the daily routine of life; working, eating, sleeping, was continuing serenely as it had for countless years.

H.G.Wells - War of the Worlds - Jeff Wayne adaption - The Eve of the War | Horsell Common

Every fiction can become reality at some point. We got the flip-phones from Star Trek too.

[iMo]

Oh, and if masks don't work, why do all the medical practitioners currently wear one? Explain the conundrum.

The point is that medical practitioners know how to use masks properly. The general public does not and that likely causes more harm than good. A mask has a limited useful life, needs to be handled right, disposed right, etc. It is pretty much the same discussion when isolation transformers come into play. If you drill down deeper you'll see that there are a lot of (not so obvious) conditions that need to be met for an isolation transformer to increase safety instead of actually reducing safety.

See these mask wearing guidelines from the WHO:
https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks
Quote from the top video 'If you do not have symptoms then don't use a mask because there is no evidence it protects you'.

I've never ever heard or seen somebody saying those general public face masks can protect you against the virus. In opposite, all say "be aware the simple masks do not protect against the virus".  All what CDC or WHO says is true, absolutely. The argument "you need trained medical personnel who can handle masks properly" is perfectly valid for laboratory and medical environment where the personnel is exposed to bacterial or viral infection.

The general public masks (ie DIY) protect the environment around the Wearer from droplets he/she is spreading by coughing and sneezing and talking (with some efficiency). Those are his/her droplets with his/her viruses and his/her bacteria caught by the mask he/she is wearing. That has been explicitly said here many times, afaik.