Covid 19 virus

[SiliconWizard]

Oh-oh

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-24/youtube-to-limit-video-quality-around-the-world-for-a-month

That makes sense. Imagine a major outage of Internet access in various parts of the world during this crisis. It would be a complete disaster.
Some providers already had a hard time keeping up the last few days...

[SilverSolder]

Quote from the top video 'If you do not have symptoms then don't use a mask because there is no evidence it protects you'.

If everyone wears masks, even those that don't know they have the disease are protecting the rest of the population?

[nctnico]

The general public masks (ie DIY) protect the environment around the Wearer from droplets he/she is spreading by coughing and sneezing and talking. Those are his/her droplets with his/her viruses caught by the mask he/she is wearing. That has been explicitly said here many times, afaik.

That is a misconception. Just read the WHO guidelines again. A mask only works if the wearer knows how to use a mask. Note that I used the word 'use' and not 'wear'. Wearing is mask is one thing, knowing how to use it effectively is another. IF it served a purpose for everyone to wear a mask then the WHO would have certainly recommended it. Now ofcourse people will chime in and say there aren't enough masks but even the WHO would be clever enough to tell us how to make our own mask from whatever material we have available. But they don't. So there is your answer.

[SiliconWizard]

I've never ever heard or seen somebody saying those general public face masks can protect you against the virus. In opposite, all say "be aware the simple mask do not protect against the virus".  All what CDC or WHO says is true, absolutely. The argument "you need trained medical personnel who can handle masks properly" is perfectly valid for laboratory and medical environment where the personnel is exposed to bacterial or viral infection.

The general public masks (ie DIY) protect the environment around the Wearer from droplets he/she is spreading by coughing and sneezing and talking. Those are his/her droplets with his/her viruses caught by the mask he/she is wearing. That has been explicitly said here many times, afaik.

Absolutely. Knowing that most of the viral charge from one person to another comes from droplets AFAIK, so it's very important to at least contain them.

And again, no one said that was a bulletproof solution. But anything that can objectively lower the viral charge people are likely to be exposed to is a good thing, and that can just be the difference between life and death.

[nctnico]

I've never ever heard or seen somebody saying those general public face masks can protect you against the virus. In opposite, all say "be aware the simple mask do not protect against the virus".  All what CDC or WHO says is true, absolutely. The argument "you need trained medical personnel who can handle masks properly" is perfectly valid for laboratory and medical environment where the personnel is exposed to bacterial or viral infection.

The general public masks (ie DIY) protect the environment around the Wearer from droplets he/she is spreading by coughing and sneezing and talking. Those are his/her droplets with his/her viruses caught by the mask he/she is wearing. That has been explicitly said here many times, afaik.

Absolutely. Knowing that most of the viral charge from one person to another comes from droplets AFAIK, so it's very important to at least contain them.

And again, no one said that was a bulletproof solution. But anything that can objectively lower the viral charge people are likely to be exposed to is a good thing, and that can just be the difference between life and death.

IF this where true then the WHO would certainly recommend it. See my reply above. I don't get why people keep insisting on denying what the experts who are literally at the front line are saying.

[Mr. Scram]

I've never ever heard or seen somebody saying those general public face masks can protect you against the virus. In opposite, all say "be aware the simple mask do not protect against the virus".  All what CDC or WHO says is true, absolutely. The argument "you need trained medical personnel who can handle masks properly" is perfectly valid for laboratory and medical environment where the personnel is exposed to bacterial or viral infection.

The general public masks (ie DIY) protect the environment around the Wearer from droplets he/she is spreading by coughing and sneezing and talking. Those are his/her droplets with his/her viruses caught by the mask he/she is wearing. That has been explicitly said here many times, afaik.

An infected person tugging at a virus soaked mask sounds like a great idea.

[SilverSolder]

An infected person who is not safely at home is a problem no matter what they are doing...

[PlainName]

A mask only works if the wearer knows how to use a mask.

For varying values of 'work'. If you wear a mask incorrectly, does it do anything at all? I would suggest it has some effect - it won't be the 'proper' working fully protective effect, but it would surely be better than nothing at all, wouldn't it?

Kind of like if you wear a crash helmet incorrectly it's not going to be as effective as if you did it up properly, but there's a non-zero possibility that it will lessen a bash on your bonce all the same. [OK, not quite analogous because an incorrectly worn helmet might kill you whereas a mask won't, but let's not go down that kind of rabbit hole.]

[nctnico]

A mask only works if the wearer knows how to use a mask.

For varying values of 'work'. If you wear a mask incorrectly, does it do anything at all? I would suggest it has some effect - it won't be the 'proper' working fully protective effect, but it would surely be better than nothing at all, wouldn't it?

Kind of like if you wear a crash helmet incorrectly it's not going to be as effective as if you did it up properly, but there's a non-zero possibility that it will lessen a bash on your bonce all the same. [OK, not quite analogous because an incorrectly worn helmet might kill you whereas a mask won't, but let's not go down that kind of rabbit hole.]

Look for X-Ray pictures of people who had their feet on the dashboard of a car while the airbag exploded. Now think again about safety features used the wrong way. Just follow the advice from the experts.

[SilverSolder]

In what circumstances would a mask not prevent or significantly reduce "spitting" from someone talking or sneezing?

[Mr. Scram]

A mask only works if the wearer knows how to use a mask.

For varying values of 'work'. If you wear a mask incorrectly, does it do anything at all? I would suggest it has some effect - it won't be the 'proper' working fully protective effect, but it would surely be better than nothing at all, wouldn't it?

Kind of like if you wear a crash helmet incorrectly it's not going to be as effective as if you did it up properly, but there's a non-zero possibility that it will lessen a bash on your bonce all the same. [OK, not quite analogous because an incorrectly worn helmet might kill you whereas a mask won't, but let's not go down that kind of rabbit hole.]

The research that was posted shows that PPE can and often does lead to more careless behaviour. This is a known issue in the medical field and elsewhere. Your assessment that you cannot make it worse is therefore demonstrably incorrect. Professionals know this and still suffer the issue. Laymen absolutely will too.

[iMo]

IF this where true then the WHO would certainly recommend it.

I wonder what happens with "WHO" after this pandemic finishes..

[nctnico]

IF this where true then the WHO would certainly recommend it.

I wonder what happens with "WHO" after this pandemic finishes..

So now all you have to add is a conspiracy theory?

[thinkfat]

Of course it doesn't make sense for Joe Average to wear a face mask that would be suitable for use by a medical practitioner, in a hospital, ER, ICU, etc . It's just wasted on him. Nobody recommends wearing these while we have a shortage of them anyway.

We'll soon see recommendations or even requirements for people to wear something over their mouth and nose when they go to the grocery store.

In what circumstances would a mask not prevent or significantly reduce "spitting" from someone talking or sneezing?

Exactly.

Since this is going to be with us for quite a while, I expect Versace to create a face mask collection. People will want to maintain style while queueing for toilet paper.

[thinkfat]

I've never ever heard or seen somebody saying those general public face masks can protect you against the virus. In opposite, all say "be aware the simple mask do not protect against the virus".  All what CDC or WHO says is true, absolutely. The argument "you need trained medical personnel who can handle masks properly" is perfectly valid for laboratory and medical environment where the personnel is exposed to bacterial or viral infection.

The general public masks (ie DIY) protect the environment around the Wearer from droplets he/she is spreading by coughing and sneezing and talking. Those are his/her droplets with his/her viruses caught by the mask he/she is wearing. That has been explicitly said here many times, afaik.

An infected person tugging at a virus soaked mask sounds like a great idea.

An infected person spitting, coughing and sneezing without one is definitely a worse idea.

[Mr. Scram]

In what circumstances would a mask not prevent or significantly reduce "spitting" from someone talking or sneezing?

It may very well, although it may also not as these masks are not designed for this. People tend to touch and adjust masks and someone may spread the virus around more than they would otherwise. The WHO acknowledges this risk when they say "If you wear a mask, then you must know how to use it and dispose of it properly." The Telegraph tells us why. It's a shit source but they make the right point;

Why do PHE (and others) worry they may make matters worse?

There are lots of reasons:

 They cause people to touch their faces more, making the changes of picking up a bug and transferring it to your body via mouth, nose and eyes more likely.
 They know most people will wear them for much longer than a few minutes for which they are designed. How many mask wearers change theirs every five minutes for a clean one? This is a problem because they quickly become damp inside and are therefore an ideal place for viruses to land
There is a risk they can be shared, especially by children.
There is a risk they are not disposed of properly, resulting in viruses being spread further.
And perhaps most important, there is a risk that they distract people from the real problem - that droplets fall on surfaces and are picked up on peoples hands and then passed to their faces. This is the main route for transmission and the only reliable way of breaking it is to keep surfaces and hands clean. Masks just don't help with that.
In Thailand, a factory was found repackaging used face masks as new.
The Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) has banned a swathe of advertisements for face masks, describing them as “misleading, irresponsible and scaremongering”. It says it is wrong for any advertiser to claim that surgical masks can protect against coronavirus and will take action against any that do.

Are there better masks than surgical masks?

Yes, but these are highly specialist, very expensive and again only work if used to very exacting protocols that even experts often struggle to keep to.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/face-masks-do-they-work-coronavirus-truth/

[PlainName]

feet on the dashboard of a car while the airbag exploded

Complete waste of time asking NOT to pull that kind of trick, wasn't it? In what way is a mask going to be similar to having your knees rammed up your arse?

Nah, forget it. I can see it was a bad move to attempt any discussion in this thread.

[Mr. Scram]

An infected person spitting, coughing and sneezing without one is definitely a worse idea.

The WHO recommendation for infected people is to stay inside. An infected person spitting, coughing and sneezing outside is a bad idea full stop.

[Mr. Scram]

Complete waste of time asking NOT to pull that kind of trick, wasn't it? In what way is a mask going to be similar to having your knees rammed up your arse?

Nah, forget it. I can see it was a bad move to attempt any discussion in this thread.

The issue is that some people override the recommendations of the WHO and additional evidence presented in favour of their own seat of the pants reasoning.

[Mr. Scram]

So now all you have to add is a conspiracy theory?

Gotta make it work somehow. 

[PlainName]

can and often does lead to more careless behaviour

Risk compensation, yes. However, wearing a mask in the current situation isn't necessarily akin to isolating vs going down the pub. If one has to go shopping then the behaviour will be the same during that trip with or without the mask, wouldn't it?

[edavid]

IF this where true then the WHO would certainly recommend it. See my reply above. I don't get why people keep insisting on denying what the experts who are literally at the front line are saying.

On the other hand, wearing masks in public is now mandatory in many places, for example Hong Kong and the Czech Republic.  Is WHO telling those countries to change their rules?  (Answer: no)

Here's a good article about the inconsistent and illogical messaging on this subject:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-masks.html

[nctnico]

feet on the dashboard of a car while the airbag exploded

Complete waste of time asking NOT to pull that kind of trick, wasn't it? In what way is a mask going to be similar to having your knees rammed up your arse?

Using a safety device the wrong way. That is the similarity. In one case it is obvious in another it is less so to the untrained eye.

[PlainName]

Complete waste of time asking NOT to pull that kind of trick, wasn't it? In what way is a mask going to be similar to having your knees rammed up your arse?

Nah, forget it. I can see it was a bad move to attempt any discussion in this thread.

The issue is that some people override the recommendations of the WHO and additional evidence presented in favour of their own seat of the pants reasoning.

No, the issue is that totally inappropriate stuff is being passed off as similar. You've pointed out some issues and the Telegraph has been quoted. They're appropriate. Suggesting wearing a mask is like having your legs blown off is not, and just ensures no-one listens to such hyperbolic cobblers.

[Mr. Scram]

Risk compensation, yes. However, wearing a mask in the current situation isn't necessarily akin to isolating vs going down the pub. If one has to go shopping then the behaviour will be the same during that trip with or without the mask, wouldn't it?

If trained medical personnel changes behaviour and somewhat less trained food industry personnel does you can bet your bottom dollar laymen will. It also distracts from the proven important hand hygiene.