Covid 19 virus

[Cerebus]

[...]  This fellow's attitude has been one ranging from passive aggressive to taking veiled swipes at anybody who might have brought any intelligence, informed background or actual domain expertise to the discussion.  [...]

Welcome to the Internet!   

Back in the day, when I was setting up one of the UK's first ISPs, it attracted a slightly better calibre of interlocutor, where reasoned argument rather than the loudest and most obnoxious voice held sway. Well, some of the time. Now, where was I? Oh yes. What are you doing on my lawn young man!?! 

[SilverSolder]

[...]  This fellow's attitude has been one ranging from passive aggressive to taking veiled swipes at anybody who might have brought any intelligence, informed background or actual domain expertise to the discussion.  [...]

Welcome to the Internet!   

Back in the day, when I was setting up one of the UK's first ISPs, it attracted a slightly better calibre of interlocutor, where reasoned argument rather than the loudest and most obnoxious voice held sway. Well, some of the time. Now, where was I? Oh yes. What are you doing on my lawn young man!?! 

Which ISP was that?

Nowadays, any forum without moderation will be overrun by pests...    the best moderators help evolve pests to useful contributors.  We have to allow people to be young and stupid, like we were! 

[Siwastaja]

Don't forget that vaccination is only safe because we do a lot of safety testing nowadays and that, even with that, otherwise safe vaccinations do in very rare cases cause more harm than good.

One such example is the swine flu vaccine, which caused some very strange, AFAIK still non-identified interaction with the Finnish gene pool, causing quite a few of severe cases of life-long narcolepsy on children and the young here, but almost nowhere else in the world. These people are still without compensation and little social security. The sad thing is, most of them were not in the risk group for the swine flu, so the vaccination, in this case, did more harm than good.

Of course, such cases are extremely rare, and that's the price we need to pay to have vaccinations at all; the average risk is almost zero due to all the testing, as you say.

[SiliconWizard]

Don't forget that vaccination is only safe because we do a lot of safety testing nowadays and that, even with that, otherwise safe vaccinations do in very rare cases cause more harm than good.

One such example is the swine flu vaccine, which caused some very strange, AFAIK still non-identified interaction with the Finnish gene pool, causing quite a few of severe cases of life-long narcolepsy on children and the young here, but almost nowhere else in the world. These people are still without compensation and little social security. The sad thing is, most of them were not in the risk group for the swine flu, so the vaccination, in this case, did more harm than good.

Of course, such cases are extremely rare, and that's the price we need to pay to have vaccinations at all; the average risk is almost zero due to all the testing, as you say.

Yes - except for the seasonal flu vaccines, that get modified and released with ultra short cycles. We can say they are mainly variants of well known vaccines, but still.

[Zero999]

Don't forget that vaccination is only safe because we do a lot of safety testing nowadays and that, even with that, otherwise safe vaccinations do in very rare cases cause more harm than good.

One such example is the swine flu vaccine, which caused some very strange, AFAIK still non-identified interaction with the Finnish gene pool, causing quite a few of severe cases of life-long narcolepsy on children and the young here, but almost nowhere else in the world. These people are still without compensation and little social security. The sad thing is, most of them were not in the risk group for the swine flu, so the vaccination, in this case, did more harm than good.

Of course, such cases are extremely rare, and that's the price we need to pay to have vaccinations at all; the average risk is almost zero due to all the testing, as you say.

Do you have any data/facts to support that? It sounds implausible, like the supposed link between autism and MMR vaccine, which was proven to be BS and cost lives.

[SilverSolder]

Don't forget that vaccination is only safe because we do a lot of safety testing nowadays and that, even with that, otherwise safe vaccinations do in very rare cases cause more harm than good.

One such example is the swine flu vaccine, which caused some very strange, AFAIK still non-identified interaction with the Finnish gene pool, causing quite a few of severe cases of life-long narcolepsy on children and the young here, but almost nowhere else in the world. These people are still without compensation and little social security. The sad thing is, most of them were not in the risk group for the swine flu, so the vaccination, in this case, did more harm than good.

Of course, such cases are extremely rare, and that's the price we need to pay to have vaccinations at all; the average risk is almost zero due to all the testing, as you say.

Yes - except for the seasonal flu vaccines, that get modified and released with ultra short cycles. We can say they are mainly variants of well known vaccines, but still.

That kind of approach may end up being the best bet against Covid-19 and its future mutations...

[Mr. Scram]

What should be the penalty for advocating torture to death which is essentially what you're doing?

I can quite understand the attitude of someone who thinks that their personal risk profile for this disease is low and wants to get it over with. Sitting around waiting for this is like seeing the Sword of Damocles  dangling over your head or waiting in the dentist's chair for the bastard to get on with it and actually pull that tooth. I'm in a high risk group, I'm 60 and I have asthma - this disease is literately an existential threat to me - but even I can feel some of that desire to "have it done and over with". Just because someone expresses that does not mean that they have a longing to catch it and become a Typhoid Mary spreading it about left right and centre or behave in any other way irresponsibly. Someone expressing their thoughts and fears is not an acceptable reason for advocating burning people to death.

Perhaps we should ship a small field hospital and some instant barracks to Gruinard Island and let folks like Maginnovision and Stray Electron go to the 'leper colony' thus created to deliberately catch it, on the understanding that, once recovered, they have to come back and volunteer for the jobs that need doing by people with immunity for a set period of time as payment for the dubious privilege of being allowed to deliberately catch it while offering safety to others from their infected selves.

There shouldn't be conditions involved, except perhaps one. This whole thing is about getting it over with without overwhelming heath care. As long as there is room to spare going early may be as effective as going later but with the added benefit of being able to time your infection. You're not only flattening the curve but also load balancing to where we now we can handle it. I'm not as much advocating the idea as saying it may have its merits. Branding people as terrorists and threatening them with a tortuous death is obviously a ridiculous hyperbole fanned by mindless fear. Not everyone seems to cope equally well to being endlessly bombarded with news from every corner.

[Cerebus]

[...]  This fellow's attitude has been one ranging from passive aggressive to taking veiled swipes at anybody who might have brought any intelligence, informed background or actual domain expertise to the discussion.  [...]

Welcome to the Internet!   

Back in the day, when I was setting up one of the UK's first ISPs, it attracted a slightly better calibre of interlocutor, where reasoned argument rather than the loudest and most obnoxious voice held sway. Well, some of the time. Now, where was I? Oh yes. What are you doing on my lawn young man!?! 

Which ISP was that?

Nowadays, any forum without moderation will be overrun by pests...    the best moderators help evolve pests to useful contributors.  We have to allow people to be young and stupid, like we were! 

Zoo Internet, now long forgotten, around No. 10 to get started going by LINX membership.

[Cerebus]

These people are still without compensation and little social security. The sad thing is, most of them were not in the risk group for the swine flu, so the vaccination, in this case, did more harm than good.

Sad. That's why the UK and US (and doubtless others) have statutory compensation schemes, to encourage vaccination that protects us all with the knowledge that the very rare cases that harm a few will be taken care of by all of us. (In theory. In practice, like with all things governmental, penny pinching is done and the compensation is never as generous as it ought to be, and it can take a bit of quibbling before people who deserve it get it. But that's governments for you, and it least it does exist and gets paid.)

[Cerebus]

Don't forget that vaccination is only safe because we do a lot of safety testing nowadays and that, even with that, otherwise safe vaccinations do in very rare cases cause more harm than good.

One such example is the swine flu vaccine, which caused some very strange, AFAIK still non-identified interaction with the Finnish gene pool, causing quite a few of severe cases of life-long narcolepsy on children and the young here, but almost nowhere else in the world. These people are still without compensation and little social security. The sad thing is, most of them were not in the risk group for the swine flu, so the vaccination, in this case, did more harm than good.

Of course, such cases are extremely rare, and that's the price we need to pay to have vaccinations at all; the average risk is almost zero due to all the testing, as you say.

Do you have any data/facts to support that? It sounds implausible, like the supposed link between autism and MMR vaccine, which was proven to be BS and cost lives.

Why should it be implausible? All things involve risk, like going for a walk.  Injecting attenuated/modified pathogens or parts of them into the human bloodstream doesn't exactly sound like the least risky thing one might do. Start at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_adverse_event if you need convincing that vaccine related damage isn't "implausible".

[coppice]

Don't forget that vaccination is only safe because we do a lot of safety testing nowadays and that, even with that, otherwise safe vaccinations do in very rare cases cause more harm than good.

One such example is the swine flu vaccine, which caused some very strange, AFAIK still non-identified interaction with the Finnish gene pool, causing quite a few of severe cases of life-long narcolepsy on children and the young here, but almost nowhere else in the world. These people are still without compensation and little social security. The sad thing is, most of them were not in the risk group for the swine flu, so the vaccination, in this case, did more harm than good.

Of course, such cases are extremely rare, and that's the price we need to pay to have vaccinations at all; the average risk is almost zero due to all the testing, as you say.

Do you have any data/facts to support that? It sounds implausible, like the supposed link between autism and MMR vaccine, which was proven to be BS and cost lives.

Why should it be implausible? All things involve risk, like going for a walk.  Injecting attenuated/modified pathogens or parts of them into the human bloodstream doesn't exactly sound like the least risky thing one might do. Start at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_adverse_event if you need convincing that vaccine related damage isn't "implausible".

There are a number of infections which can result in long term mental impairment, and vaccines are just impaired infections.

[vodka]

Don't forget that vaccination is only safe because we do a lot of safety testing nowadays and that, even with that, otherwise safe vaccinations do in very rare cases cause more harm than good.

One such example is the swine flu vaccine, which caused some very strange, AFAIK still non-identified interaction with the Finnish gene pool, causing quite a few of severe cases of life-long narcolepsy on children and the young here, but almost nowhere else in the world. These people are still without compensation and little social security. The sad thing is, most of them were not in the risk group for the swine flu, so the vaccination, in this case, did more harm than good.

Of course, such cases are extremely rare, and that's the price we need to pay to have vaccinations at all; the average risk is almost zero due to all the testing, as you say.

Yes - except for the seasonal flu vaccines, that get modified and released with ultra short cycles. We can say they are mainly variants of well known vaccines, but still.

That kind of approach may end up being the best bet against Covid-19 and its future mutations...

Until than  the world owner "mutate" the Covid-19 in another pest more mortal . Today, i found a interest video of the Covid-19 origins. Regrettably, this is in italian and translated in spanish.

An italian TV program from the public channel RAI 3,specialized in scientist info, told in 2015 , the "achievement " of the chinese scientists to modify the SARS virus for difusing the bats to humans  and affect their respiratory tract.

https://youtu.be/YHD5bfIghNU   Rafael Palacios ,alias "Rafapal" ,investigation journalist.
 

[Siwastaja]

These people are still without compensation and little social security. The sad thing is, most of them were not in the risk group for the swine flu, so the vaccination, in this case, did more harm than good.

Sad. That's why the UK and US (and doubtless others) have statutory compensation schemes, to encourage vaccination that protects us all with the knowledge that the very rare cases that harm a few will be taken care of by all of us. (In theory. In practice, ...

Of course we have very good compensation schemes in place just for this - in theory.

Zero999, you have to do some research on this if you are interested, but you can start at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemrix  and https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcolepsy-flu.html . The narcolepsy cases are not limited to Finland alone, just the occurrence was in higher proportion here. Elsewhere, it was rare enough to mix into noise, hence it was first found here because here it was well above the noise floor.

[Cerebus]

... and vaccines are just impaired infections.

Yes and no. It depends on the type of vaccine. There are basically three types of vaccine.

• Live vaccines These contain a live organism that is capable of stimulating an immune response to the thing you are vaccinating against. In turn these have two subtypes
  • Related organisms. This is where an organism that is related to the one you're vaccinating against - but that is not itself disease causing - is used. The classic case is the use of cowpox to vaccinate against smallpox.
  • Attenuated organisms. This introduces the actual disease causing pathogen using either a sub-strain that has been 'bred' to be non-pathogenic, or an organism that has been chemically 'attenuated' so it is still 'live' but the biochemical mechanisms of pathogenicity have been crippled.
• Killed vaccines These use the disease causing organism but it has been 'killed' stone dead so that you're just introducing its 'dead body', but the presence of the 'dead body' is still enough to induce an immune response.
• Component vaccines Just a part or parts of the organism are introduced, typically isolated surface proteins, which are still enough to train your immune system to recognise the pathogen if it actually turns up intact.

[SiliconWizard]

... and vaccines are just impaired infections.

Yes and no. It depends on the type of vaccine. There are basically three types of vaccine.

• Live vaccines These contain a live organism that is capable of stimulating an immune response to the thing you are vaccinating against. In turn these have two subtypes
  • Related organisms. This is where an organism that is related to the one you're vaccinating against - but that is not itself disease causing - is used. The classic case is the use of cowpox to vaccinate against smallpox.
  • Attenuated organisms. This introduces the actual disease causing pathogen using either a sub-strain that has been 'bred' to be non-pathogenic, or an organism that has been chemically 'attenuated' so it is still 'live' but the biochemical mechanisms of pathogenicity have been crippled.
• Killed vaccines These use the disease causing organism but it has been 'killed' stone dead so that you're just introducing its 'dead body', but the presence of the 'dead body' is still enough to induce an immune response.
• Component vaccines Just a part or parts of the organism are introduced, typically isolated surface proteins, which are still enough to train your immune system to recognise the pathogen if it actually turns up intact.

Do you happen to know what type of vaccine the seasonal flu vaccines are?

[coppice]

... and vaccines are just impaired infections.

Yes and no. It depends on the type of vaccine. There are basically three types of vaccine.

• Live vaccines These contain a live organism that is capable of stimulating an immune response to the thing you are vaccinating against. In turn these have two subtypes
  • Related organisms. This is where an organism that is related to the one you're vaccinating against - but that is not itself disease causing - is used. The classic case is the use of cowpox to vaccinate against smallpox.
  • Attenuated organisms. This introduces the actual disease causing pathogen using either a sub-strain that has been 'bred' to be non-pathogenic, or an organism that has been chemically 'attenuated' so it is still 'live' but the biochemical mechanisms of pathogenicity have been crippled.
• Killed vaccines These use the disease causing organism but it has been 'killed' stone dead so that you're just introducing its 'dead body', but the presence of the 'dead body' is still enough to induce an immune response.
• Component vaccines Just a part or parts of the organism are introduced, typically isolated surface proteins, which are still enough to train your immune system to recognise the pathogen if it actually turns up intact.

That's why I said impaired. I figured it was a vague enough term to cover all the options. 

[iMo]

While looking for some info on asthma vs. covid I've come across this picture - NO2 concentration in Europe. Would be interesting to compare covid data with the map..

[Cerebus]

Do you happen to know what type of vaccine the seasonal flu vaccines are?

In the UK, for this year, there were 4 vaccines in use. One, a live attenuated influenza vaccine (i.e. laboratory 'bred' to be non-pathogenic), was used in children (ages 2-17), and the three used in adults were the 'dead body' variety with either 3 or 4 strains of virus covered. One of the killed vaccines (used for age group 65+) had an adjuvant that is intended to improve the uptake of immunity, the others were non-adjuvinated.

[Cerebus]

That's why I said impaired. I figured it was a vague enough term to cover all the options. 

Yeah, my objection, or rather desire to cast some more light, was that one can only really characterise the live vaccines as causing infection, and you said "impaired infection". I'm more than happy to stipulate that I'm being pernickety, but in the context of adverse vaccination events I think it helps people understand the territory. It would be easy for people to think that "impaired infection" could imply that adverse events are down to an unimpaired infection happening. That has been the cause of some very notable vaccination tragedies, but is not the only, indeed is probably now the minority, reason for adverse outcomes of vaccination.

[nctnico]

While looking for some info on asthma vs. covid I've come across this picture - NO2 concentration in Europe. Would be interesting to compare covid data with the map..

I don't think you'll find any relevant data. The purple areas are also the most densely populated ones.

[vodka]

Once again, Josep Borrell had to open the mouth , and fuck the situation.

"Huawei will stop donating face masks to Europe after being accused of hiding political intentions

The statements of the European Foreign Minister, Josep Borrell, make Huawei go back on its health donations."

https://translate.google.es/translate?hl=es&sl=es&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fhipertextual.com%2F2020%2F03%2Fhuawei-mascarillas-europa-josep-borrell

"The article"  https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-homepage/76434/node/76434_es

[Cerebus]

The statements of the European Foreign Minister, Josep Borrell, make Huawei go back on its health donations."

https://translate.google.es/translate?hl=es&sl=es&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fhipertextual.com%2F2020%2F03%2Fhuawei-mascarillas-europa-josep-borrell

"The article"  https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-homepage/76434/node/76434_es

I haven't read it yet, so this isn't a comment on the contents. If you're linking to an EU web page there's no need for Google translate links, the EU stuff always has translations in all the 'official' EU languages, done by real human translators who know the context - just pick your language near the top right corner of any page. It'd be a shame to waste the millions the EU spend on translators every year just to get a crappy Google translation instead.

Ignore me, I hadn't followed the Google translate link, but it is still worth bearing in mind.

[Bud]

[SilverSolder]

[...]
"Huawei will stop donating face masks to Europe after being accused of hiding political intentions
[...]

I really don't get how some people can be such awful diplomats, and still hold high positions...

[Simon]

(Attachment Link)

Darwin award