Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 3086840 times)

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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3100 on: October 25, 2015, 10:06:32 am »
Cheap chip fab maybe, but serious one I doubt.

And making the sample quicker does not change the design time nor debug time. That's what takes a lot of time

Since when does Batterizer care about quality? The whole product is a ripoff! They're not going to spend any money to make it 5% better (or whatever).

Nope. The only reason they'd want to make their own chip is "unit price".

People here are talking about "need to improve the efficiency under 1.5A load", but... seriously? The dimmest of tech bloggers knows how to use a stopwatch, people are going to know Batteriser is a scam as soon as it hits the streets. No amount of chip tweaking will change that.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 11:35:30 am by Fungus »
 

Offline crispy_tofu

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3101 on: October 25, 2015, 10:08:21 am »
Where's my hoverboard Batteriser?

(I really do mean hoverboard)

Guaranteed to get 800% more board for your hover!  :-DD
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3102 on: October 25, 2015, 10:38:26 am »
People here are talking about "need to improve the efficiency under 1.5A load", but... seriously? The dimmest of tech bloggers knows how to use a stopwatch and people are going to know Batteriser is a scam as soon as it hits the streets. No amount of chip tweaking will change that.

That's going to be the ultimate test.
Anyone can put it in a product and drain it, and then compare without Batteriser, no test gear required, just a stopwatch. If they have to have the time and inclination to do it that is.
IIRC Batteriser used to be all gun-ho about using it on fresh batteriers, and then kinda back-tracked on that saying you can "also" use it on fresh batteries?
But now no mention o that on the website, so simple full cycle product testing with a stopwatch is all that is required to bust this thing wide open.
And their front page is still sprouting a definitive statement that only 20% of a batteries capacity is used. The way it's worded still implies all products do that.
They are going to get hammered! :box:
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3103 on: October 25, 2015, 11:40:11 am »
Anyone can put it in a product and drain it, and then compare without Batteriser, no test gear required, just a stopwatch. If they have to have the time and inclination to do it that is.

I think a lot of people will want to do that. It's new, it's exciting, it's the reason they bought the damn thing in the first place.

Whether they'll boast about the results is another matter, nobody likes to admit they were ripped off. Most likely it'll end up in the same cupboard as all those abdominal exercisers and workout tapes they bought.

 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3104 on: October 25, 2015, 10:57:15 pm »
...
And the time for the three steps I would says 3 months is the bare minimum

Thanks for this info.
I'm really not into chip design, and wanted to know the line where to start calling production claims BS.

In the same budget situation (non-nasa) what is a reasonable minimum batch for IC production per version?
0.1K, 10K, 1M ?
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline Godzil

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3105 on: October 25, 2015, 11:09:00 pm »
I don't know, but for the ASIC on the company where I work (much more complex than the batteriser chip, and made from an FPGA) it seems that the reasonable minimum was about 1K to 10k chip, but it was comparing to a FPGA solution, so it's strictly depends on the product and the price you agree to put on the chip. (The product we made is not cheap)

I would says that 10K is the "standard" minimum, mais I may be wrong, there are maybe people there that knows more than me on this point

Oh and for the three step, the chip took at least 2 years between the FPGA to the ASIC, and the ASIC had multiple revision (at least 4 or 5) and there are still bugs found and more to be found, the QA was a bit poor TBH on that project, that explain why it was so slow, and there is no real expert in this company on making ASIC, nor FPGA programming, yeah, at some point they wanted to put everything, even the CPU in the FPGA, without good knowledge in the company for that, as for the fact that we use Linux with no one that had experience on it, that was before I joined..., at least 2 years after the project started, yeah that's crazy.
Anyway, the ASIC made by my company is much more complex than the bateroo one, but you can't do anything on the first time perfect, you'll need a lot of test and trial, there are a lots of reason for failure, not necessarily because of your design..

I would recommend to read the Parallax Inc. forum, especially about the propeller, Chip Gracey give a lot of information about the design of his chip the Propeller (yes he made it all by himself, and mostly by hand) about all the problem they had during the first batch and testing of the chip, it's quite interesting.


And for my three months, that's a rough estimation, I seriously doubt that any company was able to make a chip in a three month time span, even small changes will takes a lot of test, either from the manufacturing point of view, and from the usage point of view. A single change could easily break the whole chip... See it as PCB design 100 to 1000x more complex (or even more)
And it's especially true when you want to have the level of performance they claim.
It's for purely the digital domain, but look at all the compilation options you have for "simple" FPGA design, plus all the optimisation that can be done (and need to be done) if you want more than what the automatic optimiser will do...
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 11:27:55 pm by Godzil »
When you make hardware without taking into account the needs of the eventual software developers, you end up with bloated hardware full of pointless excess. From the outset one must consider design from both a hardware and software perspective.
-- Yokoi Gunpei
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3106 on: October 26, 2015, 06:23:59 am »
I'm a bit confused how they claim 1.5amp output, and upto 8x run time, when they haven't even finalised the chip design yet....
 

Offline Smokey

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3107 on: October 26, 2015, 07:59:01 am »
It would be funny to put together a basic test procedure that non-EE types could do when these things come out so everyone can do a similar test and share results meaningfully.  Like step by step with pictures. 
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3108 on: October 26, 2015, 08:29:28 am »
It would be funny to put together a basic test procedure that non-EE types could do when these things come out so everyone can do a similar test and share results meaningfully.  Like step by step with pictures.
Don't know, only the result would be funny. But if someone really needs a test procedure:
  • buy two sets of fresh batteries
  • use the first set of batteries, without the batteriser, for a device and measure how long the device runs
  • use the second set of batteries, with the batteriser, for the same device and measure how long it runs
  • finally, use the first set of batteries, now with the batteriser, for the same device (hint: you won't need a stopwatch this time)
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3109 on: October 26, 2015, 08:52:20 am »
It would be funny to put together a basic test procedure that non-EE types could do when these things come out so everyone can do a similar test and share results meaningfully.  Like step by step with pictures.

Chose random product
Insert fresh batteries without Batteriser, run widget and time how long until until dead (whatever indicator that is)
Insert fresh batteries (from same packet) with Batteriser, run widget and time how long until until dead (whatever indicator that is)
Take first set of batteries and reinsert  into Batteriser and time how long until until dead (whatever indicator that is)
Measure product battery cutoff voltage if you are able.
We should all do this and collate the info for many different types of product.
First cab off the rank, that Golf GPS.

Other testing is just just for kicks and niche use cases.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 08:53:58 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3110 on: October 26, 2015, 09:54:42 am »
Right, using batteries from the same package is important. If possible, measure the open loop voltage of all batteries before testing, should be the same.

And when running the widget, it is important to run it exactly the same way for both tests. For example for a MP3 player, don't use random shuffle, but auto-repeat the same song. An appropriate song for the task would be this: http://tinyurl.com/pqqux9a
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
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Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3111 on: October 26, 2015, 06:47:14 pm »
Right, using batteries from the same package is important. If possible, measure the open loop voltage of all batteries before testing, should be the same.

And when running the widget, it is important to run it exactly the same way for both tests. For example for a MP3 player, don't use random shuffle, but auto-repeat the same song. An appropriate song for the task would be this: http://tinyurl.com/pqqux9a

 >:D +1 for that one..............  :-+

 

Offline crispy_tofu

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3112 on: October 26, 2015, 07:34:45 pm »
Right, using batteries from the same package is important. If possible, measure the open loop voltage of all batteries before testing, should be the same.

And when running the widget, it is important to run it exactly the same way for both tests. For example for a MP3 player, don't use random shuffle, but auto-repeat the same song. An appropriate song for the task would be this: http://tinyurl.com/pqqux9a

 >:D +1 for that one..............  :-+

Agh, you got me... +1  :-+
 

Offline pdunz

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3113 on: October 26, 2015, 09:47:16 pm »
Just seen a facebook post few hours ago, their AAA versions apparently have arrived.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 09:51:58 pm by pdunz »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3114 on: October 26, 2015, 10:07:18 pm »
Just seen a facebook post few hours ago, their AAA versions apparently have arrived.
'Sleeves' - no PCB or electronics.

 

Offline kezat

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3115 on: October 26, 2015, 10:09:44 pm »
Its hard to tell but it almost looks like the batteriser at the top of the photo has the positive end blurred out. :-//

Just seen a facebook post few hours ago, their AAA versions apparently have arrived.
'Sleeves' - no PCB or electronics.
 

Offline crispy_tofu

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3116 on: October 26, 2015, 10:11:24 pm »
Just seen a facebook post few hours ago, their AAA versions apparently have arrived.
'Sleeves' - no PCB or electronics.
Now if they put stripes on it...
 

Offline Godzil

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3117 on: October 26, 2015, 10:11:56 pm »
Just seen a facebook post few hours ago, their AAA versions apparently have arrived.

This picture is quite strange, looks almost like a 3D rendering, and what the f* it is upside down?

If it's a real photo, the one who took it was stupid enough to take it with the product upside down, so they 180° rotated the photo to show the text in the good direction?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 10:13:38 pm by Godzil »
When you make hardware without taking into account the needs of the eventual software developers, you end up with bloated hardware full of pointless excess. From the outset one must consider design from both a hardware and software perspective.
-- Yokoi Gunpei
 

Offline pdunz

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3118 on: October 27, 2015, 06:39:50 am »
Just seen a facebook post few hours ago, their AAA versions apparently have arrived.
'Sleeves' - no PCB or electronics.

Forgot to mention that. 


 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3119 on: October 27, 2015, 06:47:58 am »
Just seen a facebook post few hours ago, their AAA versions apparently have arrived.
'Sleeves' - no PCB or electronics.

Details... details...
 

Offline Joule Thief

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3120 on: October 27, 2015, 07:05:09 am »
Just seen a facebook post few hours ago, their AAA versions apparently have arrived.

This picture is quite strange, looks almost like a 3D rendering, and what the f* it is upside down?

If it's a real photo, the one who took it was stupid enough to take it with the product upside down, so they 180° rotated the photo to show the text in the good direction?

There just seems to be a certain level of intrigue in and about every single step they take.

That image looks like they glued one shell to the ceiling and the case is glued into a corner of the room.

I stared at it for a few seconds and now I'm dizzy.  :-[
Perturb and observe.
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3121 on: October 27, 2015, 07:47:42 am »
NoveDecember?

 

Offline andtfoot

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3122 on: October 27, 2015, 08:33:25 am »
NoveDecember?


Depends how you define the holiday season. I've already seen Christmas stuff on shelves here a couple of days ago...  ::)

Actually, after a quick search the US 'holiday season' appears to be, "...(in the US) the period of time from Thanksgiving until New Year, including such festivals as Christmas, Hanukkah, and Kwanzaa.".
Sooo... late November?
 

Offline crispy_tofu

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3123 on: October 27, 2015, 08:37:26 am »
They never said what they were delivering...  >:D
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 08:48:22 am by crispy_tofu »
 

Offline andtfoot

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3124 on: October 27, 2015, 08:45:15 am »
They never said what they were delivering...  >:D
I think they are delivering a shipping plan.   :D
What/when stuff gets shipped, well...  :-//
 


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