EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[AmmoJammo]

This is the only way I can explain things like the font changes and the 3rd "blank" page.  And about that--there is no need to put an "INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK" third page.  You would only do this on an actual blank page, such as between sections of a document, or on the last even page, so that when printed duplex you don't have an ACTUAL blank page.  By putting a 3rd blank page, you'd end up with a 4th blank page you'd need to mark as well.

Nope, most of the reports changed fonts from the cover letter, to the report, and I also found another one or two with "this page is intentionally left blank"

It was me that first questioned the dates, and names of the file! But I'm not convinced they're stupid enough to fake a UL report....

The fact that the logo changed location does have me curious though....

[Kire Pûdsje]

One of batterisers images is showing what looks like an xbox one controller.
I found the following statement here

While you can use standard AA (LR6) batteries in your Xbox One Wireless Controller, standard rechargeable AA batteries are not recommended.

Maybe Microsoft wants to sell their own battery packs, or is this statement indicative of a high cut-off voltage?
I try to follow this thread, but did not read every post, anyone measured this controller yet?

[joseph.anand]

One of batterisers images is showing what looks like an xbox one controller.
I found the following statement here

While you can use standard AA (LR6) batteries in your Xbox One Wireless Controller, standard rechargeable AA batteries are not recommended.

Maybe Microsoft wants to sell their own battery packs, or is this statement indicative of a high cut-off voltage?
I try to follow this thread, but did not read every post, anyone measured this controller yet?

I think by "standard" rechargeable they mean Alkaline (LR6) rechargeables and not NiMH. Further down the same page says

Note: Rechargeable (LR6) AA batteries do not charge while in the Xbox One Wireless Controller. Only the Xbox One battery that comes with the Play & Charge Kit can charge while in the controller. Recharge standard AA batteries by the method recommended by the manufacturer.

Based on my interaction with my relatives that stay in the US I have to clearly differentiate NiMH from rechargeable's since they consider rechargeable = rechargeable Alkaline.

[Kire Pûdsje]

Being from the Netherlands, I assumed "standard rechargable " to mean NiCd.

[AmmoJammo]

The UL test didn't measure voltage or current, therefore, the batteries, (with and without batteriser) should have been directly inserted into the GPS, as there was no reason to have them external....

The UL test isn't even testing the butteriser, but in fact, their test setup....

And what the UL test has confirmed, is that the test setup and procedure is completely flawed, and giving false results...

I don't think this is quite what butteriser had in mind 

[joseph.anand]

Being from the Netherlands, I assumed "standard rechargable " to mean NiCd.

In India standard AA/AAA rechargeable means NiMH. NiCd's are for "cordless phones".

[EEVblog]

Being appointed a company board director usually comes with some financial compensation.
Coupled with the inflated management team, that's an awful lot of people on the payroll already, for a tiny company that hasn't yet released its $2.50 flawed product.

According to the Indiegogo page they have 8 people, not including the board.
They would not survive without the VC funding. The indieogo money won't last long at all.

[Fsck]

Being from the Netherlands, I assumed "standard rechargable " to mean NiCd.

In India standard AA/AAA rechargeable means NiMH. NiCd's are for "cordless phones".

you won't find NiCd commonly in canada either, so rechargeable would mean NiMH here too.

[wraper]

Based on my interaction with my relatives that stay in the US I have to clearly differentiate NiMH from rechargeable's since they consider rechargeable = rechargeable Alkaline.

I've yet to see rechargeable Alkaline. Although they seem to exist according to Wikipedia, for sure they are not to be considered as standard type of rechargeables. Good luck to even finding a charger which officially supports them.

Being from the Netherlands, I assumed "standard rechargable " to mean NiCd.

Not for last 10 years, NiCd batteries are relic of the past. The vast majority of rechargeable AA batteries are NiMh.

[Davey_Jonez]

Why they'd add a blank page to a 2 page 'report'? That's a different question...

It is because they faked the report in MS Word... Suffered from "font-itis" between pages... Ran out of BS ideas at the start of that page.

Wrong as usual.
Muppets are wrong a lot.
UL did the test and of course you will say the test is rigged so UL ran a rigged test.
Grow up and accept you are wrong sometimes. It is not a scam, you lose.

[AmmoJammo]

So "Davey", how did butteriser manage to break the gps so it only ran for 2 hours? Lol

[EEVblog]

Wrong as usual.
Muppets are wrong a lot.
UL did the test and of course you will say the test is rigged so UL ran a rigged test.
Grow up and accept you are wrong sometimes. It is not a scam, you lose.

Going to tell us who you are?

[ez24]

Wrong as usual.
Muppets are wrong a lot.
UL did the test and of course you will say the test is rigged so UL ran a rigged test.
Grow up and accept you are wrong sometimes. It is not a scam, you lose.

Give Davey a break.  He is probably stuck in his locker.  A euphemism for drowning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Jones%27_Locker       or   

[EEVblog]

Sounds more like chicken shit. Cannot discuss anything without your blog goons?

Chicken shit is hiding behind an anonymous fake account and name.
Tell us who you are and you might have some legitimacy.

[joseph.anand]

I've yet to see rechargeable Alkaline. Although they seem to exist according to Wikipedia, for sure they are not to be considered as standard type of rechargeables. Good luck to even finding a charger which officially supports them.

Till a few years back the only rechargeable's  Duracell and Energizer were selling were rechargeable Alkalines in the US. "NiMH" was generally considered Japanese Technology. Anyway this discussion got me spending some more time online and discovering that NiCd actually use/used an alkaline electrolyte. Any battery chemistry experts her to verify this?

[nitro2k01]

Going to tell us who you are?

I can't know, but I'm guessing it's this guy, or one of his fanboys:

[EEVblog]

It is not a scam, you lose.

No, it's not a scam, it's just a flashy product with grossly exaggerated marketing claims that can't be backed up with any real engineering data and repeatable tests.

[ez24]

I have a Ray O Vac  reusable alkaline Renewal rechargeable D cell battery.  It will not die!  Every year I take it out and discharge it and recharge it.  Every time I cannot believe it and double check it.

Of course the other dozen Renewal batteries that I had failed many years ago.

[timofonic]

Wrong as usual.
Muppets are wrong a lot.
UL did the test and of course you will say the test is rigged so UL ran a rigged test.
Grow up and accept you are wrong sometimes. It is not a scam, you lose.

Going to tell us who you are?

I think she's Big Monkey. She got upset because you did put probes inside the anus of her little Clamping Monkey.

Now she's trying some very sophisticated plot to disprove you. I'm sure!

[helius]

Till a few years back the only rechargeable's  Duracell and Energizer were selling were rechargeable Alkalines in the US. "NiMH" was generally considered Japanese Technology. Anyway this discussion got me spending some more time online and discovering that NiCd actually use/used an alkaline electrolyte. Any battery chemistry experts her to verify this?

That's correct, rechargeable alkalines were commonly seen during the 1980s. They had a reputation for leaking or exploding during charging, and many devices from that period carried warnings not to use them.
NiCd uses potassium hydroxide as an electrolyte, which as you say is alkaline (basic). When NiCd cells leak, the CO₂ in the air reacts with it to form potassium carbonate, seen as blue crystals. Most damage to devices with NiCds happens when they leak in a sealed chamber without air exchange, so the KOH remains to react with metals in the device.

[isaiahA]

I think she's Big Monkey. She got upset because you did put probes inside the anus of her little Clamping Monkey.

Now she's trying some very sophisticated plot to disprove you. I'm sure!

Chicken shit is hiding behind an anonymous fake account and name.
Tell us who you are and you might have some legitimacy.

Give Davey a break.  He is probably stuck in his locker.  A euphemism for drowning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Jones%27_Locker       or   

[joseph.anand]

Wrong as usual.
Muppets are wrong a lot.
UL did the test and of course you will say the test is rigged so UL ran a rigged test.
Grow up and accept you are wrong sometimes. It is not a scam, you lose.

When "test" and "theory/math" contradict each other and there are other tests that do confirm the math then there is something seriously wrong with the test contradicting the math. When you have a product that does serve a particular purpose and then you start making ridiculous claims to market the product even to the extent of ditching common (engineering) sense in attempting to justify your claims, you are just making life more difficult for yourselves. Any (little) credibility Frank had with the EE community on EEVblog vanished with the technical video the "Batteriser Fan Page" posted. I would rate cat videos higher than that video.

[drussell]

Being from the Netherlands, I assumed "standard rechargable " to mean NiCd.

In India standard AA/AAA rechargeable means NiMH. NiCd's are for "cordless phones".

you won't find NiCd commonly in canada either, so rechargeable would mean NiMH here too.

Based on my interaction with my relatives that stay in the US I have to clearly differentiate NiMH from rechargeable's since they consider rechargeable = rechargeable Alkaline.

I've yet to see rechargeable Alkaline. Although they seem to exist according to Wikipedia, for sure they are not to be considered as standard type of rechargeables. Good luck to even finding a charger which officially supports them.

Being from the Netherlands, I assumed "standard rechargable " to mean NiCd.

Not for last 10 years, NiCd batteries are relic of the past. The vast majority of rechargeable AA batteries are NiMh.

What?!  Are you guys all nuts? 

- NiCd are readily available in Canada just like NiMH, though most of the super-expensive retail brands like Duracell and Energizer you will normally find NiMH being pushed by the retail stores because they can charge more for that bit of extra capacity and they are easier to build with lower self-discharge characteristics which is important for low-drain devices like a remote control.  NiCd is far superior for heavy cycle heavy loads and huge multi-cell packs of them are even used in some off-grid or battery backup inverter setups.
- Every cordless phone I've seen in the past 10 years that uses standard cells comes with NiMH cells in them.
- Alkalines that are specifically designed to be recharged (like PureEnergy, which was developed in Canada) are readily available also, though you can partially recharge any standard alkaline cells several times as long as they haven't been ultra-deep discharged by somehting like a Batteriser before the internal elements just aren't there anymore.  If you try to recharge ones that have been over-discharged, that's when they leak.  They just aren't designed to be robust enough (the case and seals or the anode and cathode) for many charge/discharge cycles since they're intended to be discharged once and discarded.
- Alkaline rechargers are readily availble also...  Where are you guys looking? 
- Just like NiCd or NiMH, you can recharge alkalines using your bench power supply, just go nice and slow and limit the current to a nice low value (and don't accidentally leave them for days and days to ultra-overcharge...)    lol

All batteries are just electrochemical cells, which is chemistry, which is just a a glorified form of Physics. 

When I think "rechargeable" in a size like AA, I think NiCd first, then NiMH by default....  Alkaline rechargeables only when specified as "alkaline rechargeable" but everyones's probably going to think of whatever they personally use.

NiCd is used in things like power tools because they have FAR better cycle life at high charge/discharge rates than NiMH and are significantly cheaper for close to the same capacity.

NiCd and NiMH can be charged in the same chargers at low charge rates, it's only when you get to rapid chargers that you need to do it a bit differently for the two chemistries.

[Mr.B]

snip
NiCd is used in things like power tools...
snip

I haven't seen NiCd in power tools for years.
Every battery powered tool I have purchased in the last 8 to 10 years has had Li-ion.


EDIT: Spelling

[drussell]

As much as I hate to feed the trolls.....

Wrong as usual.
Muppets are wrong a lot.
UL did the test and of course you will say the test is rigged so UL ran a rigged test.
Grow up and accept you are wrong sometimes. It is not a scam, you lose.

The UL did the tests on the Batteriser using the test jig and methodology supplied by Batteroo and reported the results.

If the test was completely invalid (which I personally believe it was) that's not the UL's fault.  They did exactly what they were asked to and supplied a (humourous) report to that effect.  There is absolutely no scientific data provided in that report, nor has there been any credible scientific evidence or any valid data at all supplied by Bateroo regarding the Batteriser.  We're still patiently waiting.

As for who's wrong or needs to grow up, I think everyone with any kind of professionalism and credibility in this industry will find that information to be glaringly self-evident...