EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[edy]

why? Thats just overcomplicating things, assuming the batteriser works ( ) then two regular AA batterisers would work just fine. A figure 8 design would not work even in the image you posted because they often have plastic dividers between the batteries and it would also be more complicated for the end user to use

Yes, I know.     It was meant as a joke....  I am trying to expand the product line, just like they announced some Batterisers for side-by-side and reverse battery orientations, to handle the assumed issues of having boost converters in series... This eliminates having 2 Batteriser sleeves in series with each other. This would just apply one boost converter to the combination of both batteries in series, which would address this problem.

There are multiple issues with this idea just as there are with the sleeves, including the practicality of getting through the plastic divider between battery compartments, physically inserting it and getting it pushed against the spring of one side, and actually figuring out which side of the battery compartment is just a simple SHORT through to the battery terminals, and which side actually goes to the load.

All said tongue-in-cheek to jab this preposterous idea of having Batterisers for different configurations of parallel and series battery compartments which the average user would need to decypher. 

But in the interest of having fun, I will propose more Batteriser products so they can expand their line. Actually this idea would be easier and cheaper to make and would not require a metallic sleeve. And you could have 2 disc-shaped PCBs with a flexible wire interconnect so you could theoretically have it jump across the plastic divider.

[dexters_lab]

why? Thats just overcomplicating things, assuming the batteriser works ( ) then two regular AA batterisers would work just fine. A figure 8 design would not work even in the image you posted because they often have plastic dividers between the batteries and it would also be more complicated for the end user to use

Yes, I know.     It was meant as a joke....  I am trying to expand the product line, just like they announced some Batterisers for side-by-side and reverse battery orientations, to handle the assumed issues of having boost converters in series... This eliminates having 2 Batteriser sleeves in series with each other. This would just apply one boost converter to the combination of both batteries in series, which would address this problem.

There are multiple issues with this idea just as there are with the sleeves, including the practicality of getting through the plastic divider between battery compartments, physically inserting it and getting it pushed against the spring of one side, and actually figuring out which side of the battery compartment is just a simple SHORT through to the battery terminals, and which side actually goes to the load.

All said tongue-in-cheek to jab this preposterous idea of having Batterisers for different configurations of parallel and series battery compartments which the average user would need to decypher. 

But in the interest of having fun, I will propose more Batteriser products so they can expand their line. Actually this idea would be easier and cheaper to make and would not require a metallic sleeve. And you could have 2 disc-shaped PCBs with a flexible wire interconnect so you could theoretically have it jump across the plastic divider.

lol, ok fair enough!

i am looking forward to getting my batterisers, if they dont work, i'll just blow them up 

[Galenbo]

Galenbo, can you please stop all this conspiracy talk about how the real prototypes don't exist. You are the only one who thinks so, and harping on and on about it will just make this forum thread look like conspiracy central.
A lot of people (including media) come here to read the technical rebuttals, this stuff does not make the technical arguments look good.

With all possible data we have and with all possible deduction, applied in a scientific way, there is simply not 1 reason to state a prototype "exists", "works" or "is shown",
but I will respect your decision to not talk about the hidden reasons you have to state the inverse.
I assume those reasons are "important" and "reputable", even to the level of starting to state other reasonable ideas "conspiracies"

[edy]

With all possible data we have and with all possible deduction, applied in a scientific way, there is simply not 1 reason to state a prototype "exists", "works" or "is shown",
but I will respect your decision to not talk about the hidden reasons you have to state the inverse.
I assume those reasons are "important" and "reputable", even to the level of starting to state other reasonable ideas "conspiracies"

I think another reason to down-play the conspiracy theory and such is because with this thread being public and now attracting much more attention, especially from media, is that we want to continue to provide an objective and scientific analysis of what is going on engineering merits ONLY. This keeps it "professional" and immaculate in behaviour. We don't want to tarnish all the wonderful contributions made by members who have actually done vigorous testing and analysis in their own labs to disprove the claims.

I know we all have various ideas of what is going on with the Batteroo company and the Roohparvar's and V.C. funding and IndieGogo campaign and their fans and so on. We have seen and obtained plenty of proof about the shenanigans they are willing to go through to make this thing happen and silence any objective critical analysis and engineering opinion. Don't give them anything to latch on to... The conspiracy is that nothing exists and it is all a scam to make money from people, but we have no way to prove or disprove that at the moment. We will know soon enough, and if that is the case your claim will be vindicated.

Meanwhile, let's keep a high-brow and stand proud and above all keep scientific about it, and not provide the Batteriser fans with any reason to say "I told you so", especially if the Batteriser is released. Then what will happen is they will appear to have won the argument because it would have become "it is a scam and doesn't exist VS. it exists"... When the real argument is "it exists and claims 800% improvement in battery life VS. it exists and doesn't really help much at all, and may actually worsen device performance".

The reason we don't have demo media units in the wild is probably not because they don't exist, it is probably because they are embarassed to let someone independently pick it apart without them watching everything and scripting and controlling your ever movement with it. They know that if Dave got a hold of one, he would DaveCAD the PCB and do rigorous testing with it and have undeniable final proof of the actual performance before it reaches the main market, and possibly cause even more damage to their reputation.

[jancumps]

...
I think another reason to down-play the conspiracy theory and such is because with this thread being public and now attracting much more attention, especially from media, is that we want to continue to provide an objective and scientific analysis of what is going on engineering merits ONLY.
...

It's also the very subject that we are good at. Once we stray from that path, our expertise is a bit dodgy - being EEs and all

[miguelvp]

Underwriters Laboratories (UL) have seen and tested the device. Only to the limits of what Batteroo or however the company is called asked them to test.

After all UL does a lot of things other than certify devices:
http://ul.com/aboutul/what-we-do/

There is no doubt the device exists.

[dexters_lab]

The reason we don't have demo media units in the wild is probably not because they don't exist, it is probably because they are embarassed to let someone independently pick it apart without them watching everything and scripting and controlling your ever movement with it. They know that if Dave got a hold of one, he would DaveCAD the PCB and do rigorous testing with it and have undeniable final proof of the actual performance before it reaches the main market, and possibly cause even more damage to their reputation.

of course, the experts can pull it apart but there will be many more 'users' who will sing it's praises

i am trying to think of an analogy but i can only think of Homoeopathy

[Galenbo]

There is no doubt the device exists.

The boss decided that, so on this forum there really is no doubt anymore. No need to repeat it. But before, I preferred to think like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

Meanwhile, let's keep a high-brow and stand proud and above all keep scientific about it, and not provide the Batteriser fans with any reason to say "I told you so", especially if the Batteriser is released. Then what will happen is they will appear to have won the argument because it would have become "it is a scam and doesn't exist VS. it exists"... When the real argument is "it exists and claims 800% improvement in battery life VS. it exists and doesn't really help much at all, and may actually worsen device performance".

I don't agree with you, but respect the way you try to avoid false victory claims from them.
Meanwhile, I remember their victory quotes about internal resistance and power supply.

..., is that we want to continue to provide an objective and scientific analysis of what is going on engineering merits ONLY.

Ok. Understood. Back to the engineering-only questions:

What's your engineering idea about what was called miniaturisation?
Is it necessary to create new components to get a working device in a keyboard?
Is it possible to get an EMC filtered schematic with existing components around the positive pole in all existing batterisers?

[Fungus]

With all possible data we have and with all possible deduction, applied in a scientific way, there is simply not 1 reason to state a prototype "exists", "works" or "is shown","conspiracies"

There's no reason to think there ISN'T a prototype.

It's not magic, it's a DC voltage booster. It could be built at home by many of the people on this forum using off-the-shelf components (suitable parts have been listed earlier in this thread).

[Galenbo]

...There's no reason to think there ISN'T a prototype.

Please stop it, like asked before, +you fail even in the most basic scientific methods.
Don't turn it around and expect rationality. There is no reason to think there ISN'T a God.

[dexters_lab]

...There's no reason to think there ISN'T a prototype.

Please stop it, like asked before, +you fail even in the most basic scientific methods.
Don't turn it around and expect rationality. There is no reason to think there ISN'T a God.

quite clearly there is a prototype... probably many of them.

The fact that UL labs tested a prototype, which is featured as a photo in the report and the UL test has been confirmed you must be deluded to think still it does not exist.

In this case there is evidence to prove a prototype does exist for the batteriser.

If you want to bring imaginary friends into it, i would say any good atheist should be willing to accept that god exists if the evidence is provided to prove it does, but we cant make a conclusion either way until there is some evidence... making a conclusion based on the LACK of evidence is just irrational.

[Godzil]

There are prototype, that's for sure, what is clearly not sure is the "800%", "8x", "80%" and "1.3V" claims.

[EEVblog]

Please don't engage Galenbo any further on this issue, clearly he's not going to stop replying to people.

[lpickup]

Hey guys, Dave asked Galenbo to stop talking about whether or not there is a prototype, so it's only fair that we as well stop offering rebuttals that technically he can't respond to.  Besides the whole argument comes down to each of our personal definitions of "prototype" anyway, so there is room for everyone to be correct.  Galenbo's definition of a prototype is a device that functions to its stated claims.  Others' definition is simply a device that fits into the necessary form factor, makes electrical contact, and is capable of fooling a battery meter and cutting down the run time of a GPS unit by 7 hours.  So let's just agree to disagree and drop it like Dave has asked.

[GNU_Ninja]

A huge bag of Bingo 1V0 to 5V0 boost converters just arrived from China (ordered via Amazon) 

Now I can begin perfecting my test techniques ready for when I get some propper Batterisers to play with. I for one can't wait for the Batteriser to turn up on the shelf at my local Poundland 

[EEVblog]

Now I can begin perfecting my test techniques ready for when I get some propper Batterisers to play with. I for one can't wait for the Batteriser to turn up on the shelf at my local Poundland 

November is only 3 weeks away 

[Fungus]

Please don't engage Galenbo any further on this issue, clearly he's not going to stop replying to people.

Yep. He/she is now in the idiot bin after that last reply.

[AF6LJ]

Now I can begin perfecting my test techniques ready for when I get some propper Batterisers to play with. I for one can't wait for the Batteriser to turn up on the shelf at my local Poundland 

November is only 3 weeks away 

It is coming all too quickly, I have one of those milestone birthdays that end in a zero in the first half of November....

[Godzil]

Now I can begin perfecting my test techniques ready for when I get some propper Batterisers to play with. I for one can't wait for the Batteriser to turn up on the shelf at my local Poundland 

Maybe we could ask Mr Ashen to do a review of it in that case?

[AF6LJ]

A huge bag of Bingo 1V0 to 5V0 boost converters just arrived from China (ordered via Amazon) 

Now I can begin perfecting my test techniques ready for when I get some propper Batterisers to play with. I for one can't wait for the Batteriser to turn up on the shelf at my local Poundland 

Don't forget the;
Battery in backwards test (battery in backwords in the batterizer.)
and
The Short Circuit test.

[GNU_Ninja]

Don't forget the;
Battery in backwards test (battery in backwords in the batterizer.)
and
The Short Circuit test.

The three year old nephew test is the killer.

I will need:

1x Three year old nephew
1x Electric Monkey (Probes III)
2x Batterisers AA model
2x Well discharged AA batteries

Method. Insert discharged AA batteries into Batteriser sleeves. Insert Batterised batteries into Electric Monkey. Switch on Electric Monkey and give to three year old nephew. Sit back and watch the mayhem if Electric Monkey fails to perform 

I have the three year old nephew, I have ordered an Electric Monkey, and I have some old AA batteries. All I need now are some Batterisers. 

[Fungus]

A huge bag of Bingo 1V0 to 5V0 boost converters just arrived from China (ordered via Amazon) 

Now I can begin perfecting my test techniques ready for when I get some propper Batterisers to play with. I for one can't wait for the Batteriser to turn up on the shelf at my local Poundland 

Boosting from 1V to 5V isn't the same as boosting from 1V to 1.5V.

[Don Hills]

A huge bag of Bingo 1V0 to 5V0 boost converters just arrived from China (ordered via Amazon) 
...

They look like they're designed to have a USB socket soldered to them. I wonder what they were intended for - maybe emergency charging a cell phone from a 1.5 volt cell?

[GNU_Ninja]

Boosting from 1V to 5V isn't the same as boosting from 1V to 1.5V.

The methodology of the test procedure is the same though. I'm actually testing my test procedures prior to getting some actual Batterisers (hope they make it to market)

[McBryce]

Don't forget the;
Battery in backwards test (battery in backwords in the batterizer.)
and
The Short Circuit test.

The three year old nephew test is the killer.

I will need:

1x Three year old nephew
1x Electric Monkey (Probes III)
2x Batterisers AA model
2x Well discharged AA batteries

Method. Insert discharged AA batteries into Batteriser sleeves. Insert Batterised batteries into Electric Monkey. Switch on Electric Monkey and give to three year old nephew. Sit back and watch the mayhem if Electric Monkey fails to perform 

I have the three year old nephew, I have ordered an Electric Monkey, and I have some old AA batteries. All I need now are some Batterisers. 

Good that you already have the three year old nephew sorted out, the delivery time on those is ridiculous!

McBryce.