EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[mikerj]

Given the lack of communication this seems rather apt:

[zal42]

  I agree, I could easily see this happening if all the initial testing was performed using only unloaded cell voltage.  It would mean you'd need to be completely ignorant of internal resistance i.e. not have even the most basic of electrical/electronics knowledge.

Which would mean that no competent and/or honest engineer came within a mile of this thing. No surprise.

I realized years ago that people are easily suckered into believing impossible things about fields they aren't educated in. The sad thing is that it's so easy to avoid the worst of these by following a simple rule of thumb: if experts are saying that something is impossible, give up all hope. If they're something is impractical or infeasible, you may allow some seed of hope to remain -- those are matters of economics, and economics change.

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

SO;
At this point; is this guy just plain stupid thinking his idea would work?
OR;
Was his intent to rip off his backers?

He has a BS, MS, and PhD in electrical engineering, is a professor at a Uni, and was in the tech sector for a while, his brother has a BS CE and a MS EE and is in the tech sector. Not so knowledgeable PhDs do exist though (really it's not that uncommon, especially if they're outside of their PhD work which is usually pretty narrow). A 3rd possibility is inventor blindness or whatever (believing it works because one wants it to work despite reality). That is actually really common. But at this point, most people would be aware I'd think.

Also, the concept probably does work at some level... but probably not on devices that were properly designed in the first place.

[McBryce]

yet with countess people after him with pitchforks, he can't say a single thing about production after all this time?

Ooo, so he's even got royalty after him at this stage! 

McBryce.

[rich]

Given the lack of communication this seems rather apt:

I had no idea of the cultural reference* for your creation, so I followed the image tag to your photobucket which tried to sell me a calendar. Very appropriate.

* Silent Bob for anyone who's wondering.

[LabSpokane]

If there isn't a bin of production units by now for show and tell, there isn't going to be.  60 days from IGG funding to shipping was a stupid estimate, but there's now been a perfectly reasonable amount of time for pre-production units.  There just isn't that much to this thing. 

[EEVblog]

SO;
At this point; is this guy just plain stupid thinking his idea would work?

Yes, demonstrably so.

OR;
Was his intent to rip off his backers?

He likely thought people would never to do the proper testing required to show it's claims are BS. They'd get something out of it and then just toss them.
He did not count on the entire engineering community taking him to task over the grossly exaggerated claims, and becoming the laughing stock of the industry.

[EEVblog]

60 days from IGG funding to shipping was a stupid estimate

Not so if you are the former CEO of Flextronics, and you had pre-production prototypes which they claimed in no uncertain terms that they had.

Backers should never forget this!, direct from their IGG campaign page it clearly states they had pre-production prototypes before the IGG campaign was launched. Yep no evidence has ever been presented that they had "pre-production" prototypes. In fact all the evidence is to the contrary.

[Brumby]

I corrected the image....

[mikerj]

[I had no idea of the cultural reference* for your creation, so I followed the image tag to your photobucket which tried to sell me a calendar. Very appropriate.

  I'm not sure a standard calendar will have enough months to cover the delivery schedule.

[digsys]

  .. I'm not sure a standard calendar will have enough months to cover the delivery schedule ... 

WOOHOOO Just thought of a new IGG campaign !!! an 800% MORE months calendar !! MINE ! All MINE !!

[lpickup]

  I'm not sure a standard calendar will have enough months to cover the delivery schedule.

Every month would have to be labeled "Next Month" without any reference to actual month names.

[Howardlong]

The regulators might finally be waking up to dodgy crowdfunding and the pisspoor VC industry.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/01/sec_chair_blasts_silicon_valley_valuations/

[Fungus]

SO;
At this point; is this guy just plain stupid thinking his idea would work?

Yes, demonstrably so.

I disagree. The "technical explanation" video they came up with after your first round of debunking showed that they understand batteries perfectly.

The "Probes the Monkey" video also shows that they know perfectly well what ESR is.

The explanations were bullshit, but they were cleverly crafted bullshit that showed quite a lot of understanding of the underlying theories.

I don't know what he started out thinking when he came up with the original idea but there's no way he believed Batteriser worked as claimed when those two videos were made. No Sir. Nope.

OR;
Was his intent to rip off his backers?

He likely thought people would never to do the proper testing required to show it's claims are BS. They'd get something out of it and then just toss them.

"Hoping nobody would notice" is really the same as "intending to rip them off".

[rich]

60 days from IGG funding to shipping was a stupid estimate

Not so if you are the former CEO of Flextronics, and you had pre-production prototypes which they claimed in no uncertain terms that they had.

Backers should never forget this!, direct from their IGG campaign page it clearly states they had pre-production prototypes before the IGG campaign was launched. Yep no evidence has ever been presented that they had "pre-production" prototypes. In fact all the evidence is to the contrary.

Like all things written by Bob 'king of doublespeak' Roohparvar you must be reading or testing it wrong

To add weight to Dave's assertion:

June 2nd:  PC World early prototypes shown
July: Chip redesigned, not yet fabricated (expected October?) so no PPP
End of July (27th?): Indiegogo campaign starts. No mention of redesigned IC
End of August: Campaign over funded (300%?) and extended for another 30days.

In BobQuotes™:
Late October/early Nov 2015: "The early prototype that we took to PC World wasn't optimized yet for high-drain devices."
November 24th "We expected our final IC to be ready and out of the fabrication facility (FAB) over a month ago."
Dec 22nd 2015: "As you may recall, we initially planned to ship the 500 milli-amp beta version of the Batteriser; however, we made a strategic decision to deliver Batterisers with a  new IC (Integrated circuit)"

Ali Roohparvar's comment (that was later deleted) eventually undermined the intention to ship the 500mA story, admitting they had redesigned the IC before the campaign started:
Ali Roohparvar, Dec 10th 2015: "We were ready to producte [sic] those over the summer. We designed a new IC in July to handle higher current."

Not relevant to pre-production prototypes, but still my favourite smoking gun quote:
Dec 22nd 2015: "The Batteriser final assembly is underway and packaging is nearly complete."

[rich]

I don't know what he started out thinking when he came up with the original idea but there's no way he believed Batteriser worked as claimed when those two videos were made. No Sir. Nope.

I seem to recall even the engineer driving the oscilloscope for Bob in the video response looked deeply uncomfortable, and I don't think that was just from being camera shy.

OR;
Was his intent to rip off his backers?

He likely thought people would never to do the proper testing required to show it's claims are BS. They'd get something out of it and then just toss them.

"Hoping nobody would notice" is really the same as "intending to rip them off".

Agree with both of you here. There is a small positive effect for poorly designed devices, but videos purposely tried to spin it differently.

[Fungus]

I don't know what he started out thinking when he came up with the original idea but there's no way he believed Batteriser worked as claimed when those two videos were made. No Sir. Nope.

I seem to recall even the engineer driving the oscilloscope for Bob in the video response looked deeply uncomfortable, and I don't think that was just from being camera shy.

He knew his career prospects as an electronics engineer were about to be destroyed?

Maybe we should get in touch with him. We figured out who he was (somewhere in this thread).

If we can get him to talk openly on video it might restore his career prospects. 

[rx8pilot]

If consumers put these n their remote controls and other devices that last for years - they would never know it did not work and Batteriser would have long ago spent the profits from that.

The the common person, electricity and electronics are black magic. It's an easy scam.

[EEVblog]

At this point; is this guy just plain stupid thinking his idea would work?

I think that's how it started.  If you don't know much about batteries, or the difference between voltage and power, and you make the mistake of measuring the unloaded voltage of a 'dead' battery thinking it's the cut-off voltage of the device, and you don't stop to think "wouldn't someone have done this already?", then it sounds like a great idea.
The 800% claim is exactly what you get if you make all those mistakes.  You start with a nominal 1.5V (don't measure it, that's what's written on the battery).  Run your device until it stops.  Take the battery out and measure the voltage.  1.4V!  It's hardly used anything!  If we can boost it back up to 1.5V, we can keep going.  Between 0.6V and 1.4V is another 8 steps of 0.1V.
But it must have become clear to them long ago that it couldn't possibly work.  I don't know what they're doing now.

Yes, and all the evidence points toward this as an explanation. The number of times they have changed their story and revised their battery voltage cutoff point theory shows it.
e.g. IIRC, the patent says 1.4V and makes no mention of unloaded voltage. The campaign originally said 1.4V in some places and then 1.3V, but still no mention of open circuit voltage testing. Then they changed their claim to 1.3V. Then only after all that they finally admitted they measure the battery voltage unloaded. Then they had to admit what it goes down to under load, but still had to refuse to admit that's the correct way to measure it otherwise they would lose face. So then they doubled down and produced the infamous monkey video with it's absurd claims and hand waving.
After engineers still laughed at them they doubled down again and produced the snail video and the bogus GPS testing videos.

For those following from the beginning it's obvious they knew nothing about battery technology or proper measurement, and they got called out on it. Their responses have been classic weasel responses and intimidation to silence critics. But of course it all backfired spectacularly.

I really still do believe they originally had honest intentions, and thought they were on winning idea. Unfortunately for them, engineering reality has a habit of biting flawed ideas in the arse.

[EEVblog]

Not relevant to pre-production prototypes, but still my favourite smoking gun quote:
Dec 22nd 2015: "The Batteriser final assembly is underway and packaging is nearly complete."

For that to be true, you must have had pre-productions units done and tested to satisfaction. Yet 3 months after that statement not even a single photo has been shown after countless requests.

[Howardlong]

Not relevant to pre-production prototypes, but still my favourite smoking gun quote:
Dec 22nd 2015: "The Batteriser final assembly is underway and packaging is nearly complete."

For that to be true, you must have had pre-productions units done and tested to satisfaction. Yet 3 months after that statement not even a single photo has been shown after countless requests.

Remind me, was that before or after the 800% bullshit landslip?

[rich]

Confirming "final assembly was underway" was exactly once sentence before continuing with
Dec 22: "Unfortunately, due to a tragic heavy landslide in Shenzhen, China  this week,  we are now facing additional slight delays. " ... "We are continuing to communicate with our Contract manufacturing partners in Shenzhen every day. As of today, we are pleased to have received news from Shenzhen that our partners will do their best to ship Batteriser to our designated warehouse in the US within the next couple weeks. "

Seeing as I'm posting summaries, it descends into the following Q1 2016 lowlights:
Feb 10: "While facing the challenge of working during the Chinese New Year holiday season, two of our executive team members have been in China and Taiwan working very closely with our contract manufacturer these past few weeks" ... "As a result of this productive collaboration and our team’s diligence, our Contract Manufacturer has confirmed their commitment to ship Batterisers this coming March"
Feb 17: "Sure, William, we can certainly update with more Batteriser photos"

Then: Bob said nothing.
Then: Bob said nothing, but louder this time.*

April 1st: "I will be heading to China to work with the team to expedite the shipping of Batterisers"



[* hat tip to the late, great, Terry Pratchett.]

[Brumby]

Indeed.

The silence is deafening.

[samgab]

At this point; is this guy just plain stupid thinking his idea would work?

I think that's how it started.  If you don't know much about batteries, or the difference between voltage and power, and you make the mistake of measuring the unloaded voltage of a 'dead' battery thinking it's the cut-off voltage of the device, and you don't stop to think "wouldn't someone have done this already?", then it sounds like a great idea.
The 800% claim is exactly what you get if you make all those mistakes.  You start with a nominal 1.5V (don't measure it, that's what's written on the battery).  Run your device until it stops.  Take the battery out and measure the voltage.  1.4V!  It's hardly used anything!  If we can boost it back up to 1.5V, we can keep going.  Between 0.6V and 1.4V is another 8 steps of 0.1V.
But it must have become clear to them long ago that it couldn't possibly work.  I don't know what they're doing now.

Yes, and all the evidence points toward this as an explanation. The number of times they have changed their story and revised their battery voltage cutoff point theory shows it.
e.g. IIRC, the patent says 1.4V and makes no mention of unloaded voltage. The campaign originally said 1.4V in some places and then 1.3V, but still no mention of open circuit voltage testing. Then they changed their claim to 1.3V. Then only after all that they finally admitted they measure the battery voltage unloaded. Then they had to admit what it goes down to under load, but still had to refuse to admit that's the correct way to measure it otherwise they would lose face. So then they doubled down and produced the infamous monkey video with it's absurd claims and hand waving.
After engineers still laughed at them they doubled down again and produced the snail video and the bogus GPS testing videos.

For those following from the beginning it's obvious they knew nothing about battery technology or proper measurement, and they got called out on it. Their responses have been classic weasel responses and intimidation to silence critics. But of course it all backfired spectacularly.

I really still do believe they originally had honest intentions, and thought they were on winning idea. Unfortunately for them, engineering reality has a habit of biting flawed ideas in the arse.

...and what about all that stuff about their offices being burgled for their intellectual property??!! 

Nobody would really want any of their IP, as even calling it that is a catachresis or misnomer...

[Brumby]

...and what about all that stuff about their offices being burgled for their intellectual property??!! 

Nobody would really want any of their IP, as even calling it that is a catachresis or misnomer...

From the evidence we have at hand, it would seem their intellectual property would be about two reams of blank photocopy paper...

... but not worth as much.