Snake oil

[Mr. Scram]

Here's a simple guide to the biggest bullshit cosmetics (I learned this from TV and common knowledge, so not an expert)

-essenial oils, , they can say that about anything
-detoxifying, total utter , it's not possible to remove chemicals out through skin (skin is one way)
-random organic bits (X extract, essence of X, exc), these are more tricky, this is where you need to know organic chemistry to know if they will actually effect the skin, but alot of it is just for smell anyway

Not that I disagree with your story in general, but how do you suppose skin is one way? It adsorbs certain substances quite readily, while also expelling various other substances like oils and water.

[Cyberdragon]

Here's a simple guide to the biggest bullshit cosmetics (I learned this from TV and common knowledge, so not an expert)

-essenial oils, , they can say that about anything
-detoxifying, total utter , it's not possible to remove chemicals out through skin (skin is one way)
-random organic bits (X extract, essence of X, exc), these are more tricky, this is where you need to know organic chemistry to know if they will actually effect the skin, but alot of it is just for smell anyway

Not that I disagree with your story in general, but how do you suppose skin is one way? It adsorbs certain substances quite readily, while also expelling various other substances like oils and water.

Those are produced by the skin, waste and contaminants in your blood can only be filtered by your liver and kidneys. I mean, yes, the chemicals from the skin do come from the body ultimately (it has to come from somewhere), but skin is not a primary means of excretion for waste or contaminates in the body. So while you can absorb nasty crap through your skin, it's not coming back out the same way.

[Specmaster]

Let me do the math. So we take the price of a Tesla model X, add income tax and accounting fees, operating costs, massage service and divide by 1000 and we set the minimum batch size of 1000 and there you go!

You haven't factored in anything to cover for the hospital treatment and compensation for your appendages getting damaged by the Tesla model X if the door button gets pressed to early, the door sensors don't work effectively.

[djos]

Here's a simple guide to the biggest bullshit cosmetics (I learned this from TV and common knowledge, so not an expert)

-essenial oils, , they can say that about anything
-detoxifying, total utter , it's not possible to remove chemicals out through skin (skin is one way)
-random organic bits (X extract, essence of X, exc), these are more tricky, this is where you need to know organic chemistry to know if they will actually effect the skin, but alot of it is just for smell anyway

Not that I disagree with your story in general, but how do you suppose skin is one way? It adsorbs certain substances quite readily, while also expelling various other substances like oils and water.

Those are produced by the skin, waste and contaminants in your blood can only be filtered by your liver and kidneys. I mean, yes, the chemicals from the skin do come from the body ultimately (it has to come from somewhere), but skin is not a primary means of excretion for waste or contaminates in the body. So while you can absorb nasty crap through your skin, it's not coming back out the same way.

Hmmm, I was under the impression that Sweat frequently expelled contaminants & oils?

Just eat a bucket of KFC and watch your skin turn nasty! 

[bd139]

KFC gives me a healthy shine 

[djos]

KFC gives me a healthy shine 

Despite being 42, that stuff breaks me out in Acne!   

[Mr. Scram]

Hmmm, I was under the impression that Sweat frequently expelled contaminants & oils?

Just eat a bucket of KFC and watch your skin turn nasty! 

It does. This is illustrated by the fact that some drug tests are based on samples taken from the skin. The notion that this is not the primary method of dealing with contaminants by the body would be correct.

[cprobertson1]

My time to shine! [dusts off biochemistry degree that I've not really used...]

If it's soluble in oil and it's in your blood, some of it will come out through your skin - mostly through the sebum. Likewise if it's water-soluble, some of it will come out in your sweat.

Regardless of solubility, as a rule of thumb, most of everything that enters your blood leaves it through the urine - except carbon, which mostly leaves through your lungs as CO₂ That's right! You get lighter with each breath!

I have a much more detailed version of this post that I decided not to post (despite writing it) - I'll cover the subject on youtube at some point, but if anybody actually want's the detailed explanation give me a shout and I'll post my rambling here

[grumpydoc]

I’ve worked out my scam idea now.

I’m going to scam the scammers by setting up the best independent cable conditioning service in the business. You mail your cables to me and I’ll freeze them, burn them in and then run them through an audio VNA of my own dubious creation which will determine the best direction of the electron flow, label them up and provide a report as good as a your average Chinese AD584 paper report. I will charge $100 per cable plus shipping.

What will actually happen: fuck all other than unpack it and stick it in a nicer box and stick a piece of paper in with a plausible looking bode plot plus  some random noise from excel’s RNG in it.

If you do that it will be possible to find you guilty of fraud as you are promising a service which you do not deliver.

If you do, in fact, freeze them, burn them in and provide documented evidence of the steps you took to establish the directionality etc you will be fine.

Won't make any difference to the cable either way, of course. 

[Mr. Scram]

My time to shine! [dusts off biochemistry degree that I've not really used...]

If it's soluble in oil and it's in your blood, some of it will come out through your skin - mostly through the sebum. Likewise if it's water-soluble, some of it will come out in your sweat.

Regardless of solubility, as a rule of thumb, most of everything that enters your blood leaves it through the urine - except carbon, which mostly leaves through your lungs as CO₂ That's right! You get lighter with each breath!

I have a much more detailed version of this post that I decided not to post (despite writing it) - I'll cover the subject on youtube at some point, but if anybody actually want's the detailed explanation give me a shout and I'll post my rambling here

Yes please!

[cprobertson1]

Yes please!
[/quote]

Okay! You asked for it!

I've revised a little of it - but it gets a bit ropey towards the ened because I ran out of time - I might refine it with edits during my train journey later - but can't make any promises!



The Long Version...

Skin is designed to be mostly impermeable - it's main purpose is to stop pathogens entering the more sensitive underlayers - it's secondary purpose is thermal regulation.

As you know, it accomplishes this by sweating, and in mammals, having a subcutaneous layer of fat and hairs that stand on end to trap an insulating layer of air underneath the hairs (except in humans we don't have enough hair to do that anymore so our hairs just stand up and make us look very slightly fuzzier.)

As part of it's primary purpose in being a barrier to pathogens (and other toxicants), it produces sebum - which does lots of stuff. It is secreted by exocrine sebaceous glands, which are found wherever there is hair; most notably on the scalp, face, and shoulders. Sebum also helps waterproof you - and can help distribute some of your pheremones so that other people can smell you (did you know that what we call "love" has a worryingly large basis in smell?)

Sebum contains wax esters and some fatty acids and oils and stuff - and as a result, there is a concentration gradient between it and the blood vessels supplying the sebaceous gland - and as a result, a small, usually tiny amount of whatever is in your blood will dissolve into the sebum.

Most of this doesn't matter - the concentration is so miniscule that you only really notice it if something particularly pungent ("smelly", to use the technical term) is excreted by this pathway, in which case you notice it on the skin.

If you have more oil-soluble (non-polar) molecules in your blood, say, from drinking oil every day (don't try that, by the way), the concentration gradient is slightly higher, and this results in more of it diffusing across - the larger the molecule the harder it is to get into the sebum (because there is a barrier between the blood and the excretory side of the sebaceous gland... to stop you bleeding through your hairs - which would be pretty scary)

And that is how certain oily substances that you eat (and digested) end up on your skin: some examples include certain drugs, oils, and esters - often smelling sweet or musky.

Next up we have the water soluble (polar) stuff - this one's easy - it comes out in your sweat. Your body produces salty water (perspiration) to act as an evaporative cooling mechanism - this makes it slightly less pleasant for microbes to grow in, and makes it easier to evaporate - which means it can cool you quicker.

Once again, as it's secreted, water-soluble molecules can partition across your membranes into it - but, as I mentioned, most of anything in your blood ultimately exits through your urine (except carbon, which exits through your lungs as CO₂)

Anything water soluble can come out through your sweat - the most obvious example is "allicinic acid" - the chemical that makes garlic smell... garlicky. Well, one of the chemicals. It's also a minor antibacterial (only minor though - if you have no access to any medicine it might help you a little... but even the worst antibiotics these days are still orders of magnitude more effective).

And that's why you smell garlicky when you eat garlic - well - one of the reasons, some of it also comes out in your saliva and you swallow it - and likewise, some of it ends up in your lungs - both of which contribute to garlic/anti-vampire breath after eating garlic bread.


NOW - the reverse is also possible; if you smear something onto your skin - some of it can end up in your blood. Certain chemicals are better at this than others - but generally speaking your skin is good at keeping chemicals out - this is why you don't swell up and die when you take a shower; this is why you can wash the dishes without poisoning yourself with dish soap; and this is why froliking in a field of grass doesn't cause you to have a massive allergic reaction to everything around you - it's physically isolated from your immune system. Obviously some people are more sensitive to certain proteins than others - and some people are orders of magnitude more sensitive to certain things - case and point - try rubbing some peanuts on somebody with a peanut allergy and see how quickly they start to panic once they realise what you're doing.

SO - now we have a plausible mechanism for absorbing some chemicals through your skin to varying degrees: good - you've got chemicals in you. Now what?

Well, that's all we need to sell you something: "your absorbs it" - and unless you know a lot of biochemistry, you'll have no idea what it's going to do - if anything. For instance, let's take a simple example - cyanide. We all know cyanide is bad - it's a poison... well, what defines a poison is the dose required to kill you - the smaller the dose required to kill you, the more poisonous it is. Cyanide doesn't require a whole lot to kill you - but guess what... your body makes it. OOOH NO! So do many plants. Some plants (like clover) produce a lot of it as a defence mechanism to ward off predators (like bunnies, who avoid it like the plague) - while other plants, like us, only produce traces as a byproduct - but that still means there is (trace) cycanide in food - just because something is detectable does not mean it has an effect; the dose makes the poison - and likewise, the dose makes the medicine.

One of my favourite examples of this is "Pantenne Pro-V" - you know, pro-vitamins! I have no idea what a pro-vitamin is... I know what a pro-drug is - it's a molecule that you eat - and when you eat it, it's not the drug - but your body digests it and makes it INTO the drug (like codeine - which turns into morphine when you metabolise it - thanks liver!).

Except... that doesn't make sense - does that mean a pro-vitamin is something you take that's not a vitamin but your body makes it into a vitamin? No, it can't be - a vitamin is,  by definition, something your body cannot make itself, and thus must be acquired (eaten) from the environment!

Not that it matters, because you're plastering this stuff on your hair - where it doesn't get absorbed (much).

So what is it actually? Probably "just a protein" that sticks to your hair, maybe it grabs water (hygroscopic), maybe it's waxy (makes your hair shiny), or maybe it's a random vitamin that's been added - either deliberately or by accident as a result of some side reaction or other ingredient.


As cyberdragon mentioned, Essential Oils are another good example: an essential oil (literally an oil that is the essence of something - for instance, essence of rose, garlick, bluebell, whatever - it's just a distilled oil, usually from a plant, and it usually smells nice if you're going to put it on your skin, but there's no requirement for it to smell nice)

How this ties into BS is related to psychology, ignorance of science in general, and ignorance of how to do basic research.

Consumers know that some plants have magical medicinal properties - so in their mind, there is now a coupling of the two ideas; that of "a chemical is on/in my skin" and "medicines are chemicals" - and that is the premise of the various tinctures/oils/lotions/solutions/treatments. On top of that, you have a placebo effect - which can be amazingly powerful - like, performing surgery with placebo anaesthetics and the patients are fine with it kind of amazingly powerful.

Ultimately you end up with two ingredients to BS - a plausible mechanism, and, ideally, ignorance of the subject. Unfortunately, ignorance is the default position on every subject; so there's a lot of BS out there! As James Randi said; "Ignorance is both hereditary and contagious" - a most poignant point in this day and age.

Anyway, I have ran out of time - I'll no doubt continue my ramblings at some point

Any questions - feel free to ask!

[Don Hills]

DMSO (Dimethyl sulfoxide) readily passes from the skin into the bloodstream. It's often used to carry other chemicals in transdermal treatments.

[Cerebus]

I have no idea what a pro-vitamin is...

I'll bet you do if you think about it for a second or two. Retinoids like the various carotenes are the obvious ones (pro-vitamin A if you will) and I'm sure there's others, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Of course, what good a pro-anything would be dumped onto biologically inactive keratin is another question entirely.

[cprobertson1]

I have no idea what a pro-vitamin is...

I'll bet you do if you think about it for a second or two. Retinoids like the various carotenes are the obvious ones (pro-vitamin A if you will) and I'm sure there's others, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Of course, what good a pro-anything would be dumped onto biologically inactive keratin is another question entirely.

Ha! Fair point I had actually forgotten about these! Many thanks! I was taught them as "previtamins" rather than pro-vitamins; same thing though. TBH, we didn't really do much on vitamins... they were always there, lurking in the background - my field was immunology and we didn't generally have to go near the vitamin side of things: nasty, horrible-sounding molecules that nobody can pronounce (that's not an hyperbole - they cannot be pronounced by mortal tongues ) and tonnes of cells that carry those molecules except when they don't... and the pathways - oh gawd, the pathways! So many pathways...

ANYWAY - we didn't really bother with metabolism of vitamins, and only rarely interacted with them - usually only when they were describing something going wrong with a related process. I'm out the game as well - I hate to think of all the other things I've simply forgotten through lack of use

DMSO (Dimethyl sulfoxide) readily passes from the skin into the bloodstream. It's often used to carry other chemicals in transdermal treatments.

DMSO (Dimethyl sulfoxide) readily passes from the skin into the bloodstream. It's often used to carry other chemicals in transdermal treatments.

Ah, indeed - I have had very little exposure to this as a transdermal drug delivery method - though if you're interested I know a pharmacologist who can probably tell you a lot more about it than I!

My main experience with it was using it as a solvent in the lab as it's good at dissolving polar and nonpolar stuff; it was used a lot in the PCR reaction for amplifying DNA if I recall. It's a bit of an exception though - most chemicals don't penetrate the skin, and those that do don't tend to make it very far into it, precisely because they tend to be much more soluble in a polar or non-polar solvent but not in it's polar opposite (PUNS!).

Of course - some do penetrate it - but they tend to be relatively rare compared to what won't go too far through your skin. There are plenty of things that do go through your skin though - lots of factors influence it - but generally, if you want something to end up in the blood, through the skin may not be the best choice (but it does have it's place - for instance, nicotine patches and fentanyl patches are good for the end-consumer - precisely because they aren't good at going through the skin, it takes a while to pass through and you get a sustained release - rather than an acute dose; and it also bypasses your stomach - meaning you don't need to do weird chemistry to stop it getting digested immediately).

Either way, DMSO isn't something you generally find in cosmetics... but as always, there are exceptions - and of course, it's becoming increasingly popular in cosmetics because it's fairly non-toxic (LD₅₀ is 14'500mg/kg in rats) - you can put it in your cream and it will saturate your skin with it without too much damage. What you dissolve in it may or may not pass through the skin with it, it depends on a bunch of factors - exampli gratia, the larger the molecule generally the harder it is to push through the skin with this method.

This is a prime example of "it has an effect in some situations" - but the average consumer mistakes that as meaning "science says it works" =/

[Mr. Scram]

DMSO (Dimethyl sulfoxide) readily passes from the skin into the bloodstream. It's often used to carry other chemicals in transdermal treatments.

Paint thinner does also apparently pass through skin. It also passes through the blood-brain barrier and eats up rubber gloves. Not a great combination. The more I learn about it, the more I'm surprised people can by it without a problem. I think most danger comes from people not realizing the nastiness they're dealing with.

[McBryce]

-detoxifying, total utter , it's not possible to remove chemicals out through skin (skin is one way)

As most humans sweat, I would tend to disagree with that one.

McBryce.


Gesendet von meinem Motorola DynaTAC 8000x mit Tapatalk

[cprobertson1]

DMSO (Dimethyl sulfoxide) readily passes from the skin into the bloodstream. It's often used to carry other chemicals in transdermal treatments.

Paint thinner does also apparently pass through skin. It also passes through the blood-brain barrier and eats up rubber gloves. Not a great combination. The more I learn about it, the more I'm surprised people can by it without a problem. I think most danger comes from people not realizing the nastiness they're dealing with.

Again, it all comes down to dosing: the dose makes the poison; you're much more likely to get paint thinner into you from inhalation (your lungs are designed to transfer chemicals: skin, not so much) - so while possible, it's much less of a concern - obviously, if you were bathing in it, it might be an issue - but from casual use it's not likely to be enough to have a terrible effect on you - and if it does have an effect it's likely to be mild compared to an inhalation injury with the same chemical. As for passing throug hte blood-brain barrier; most chemicals do that - the barrier is designed to stop big things like cells and viruses crossing over - chemicals can diffuse across it with relative ease unless they are very large, complex, or have specific characteristics that stop them passing through it - if they didn't, you would struggle to actually give your brain oxygen and glucose and take away it's waste products.

-detoxifying, total utter , it's not possible to remove chemicals out through skin (skin is one way)

As most humans sweat, I would tend to disagree with that one.
McBryce.

Gesendet von meinem Motorola DynaTAC 8000x mit Tapatalk

Detox is indeed utter ******** - it can be debunked with the simple nursery-level question - "so what actual toxin is being removed". As for moving a lot of material through your skin - it is generally one-way, your skin is designed to act as a barrier - sweating is a deliberate excretion from specific organs in your skin, and because of that you can't get just anything coming out of it.

To quote my original post:

If it's soluble in oil and it's in your blood, some of it will come out through your skin - mostly through the sebum. Likewise if it's water-soluble, some of it will come out in your sweat.

Regardless of solubility, as a rule of thumb, most of everything that enters your blood leaves it through the urine - except carbon, which mostly leaves through your lungs as CO₂


Anyway, I'm going to stop typing now - I've gotten waaaaaaay off topic

[Cerebus]

DMSO (Dimethyl sulfoxide) readily passes from the skin into the bloodstream. It's often used to carry other chemicals in transdermal treatments.

Paint thinner does also apparently pass through skin. It also passes through the blood-brain barrier and eats up rubber gloves. Not a great combination. The more I learn about it, the more I'm surprised people can by it without a problem. I think most danger comes from people not realizing the nastiness they're dealing with.

Again, it all comes down to dosing: the dose makes the poison; you're much more likely to get paint thinner into you from inhalation (your lungs are designed to transfer chemicals: skin, not so much) - so while possible, it's much less of a concern - obviously, if you were bathing in it, it might be an issue - but from casual use it's not likely to be enough to have a terrible effect on you - and if it does have an effect it's likely to be mild compared to an inhalation injury with the same chemical. As for passing throug hte blood-brain barrier; most chemicals do that - the barrier is designed to stop big things like cells and viruses crossing over - chemicals can diffuse across it with relative ease unless they are very large, complex, or have specific characteristics that stop them passing through it - if they didn't, you would struggle to actually give your brain oxygen and glucose and take away it's waste products.

Some pthalates will make it through the skin. This was discovered from testicular atrophy in painters who kept paint and solvent contaminated rags in the pockets of their overalls. Anybody really interested ought to be able to find a paper from ICI's reproductive toxicity lab entitled something like "Lactate Dehydrogenase as a Marker of Sertoli Cell damage" by HJ Barker and Andy somebody from the early eighties which contains the background. The take-away message is "Gentlemen, do not keep painter's rags in your trouser pockets or your balls will shrivel.".

[Specmaster]

The take-away message is "Gentlemen, do not keep painter's rags in your trouser pockets or your balls will shrivel.".

Darn It!!!

[skarecrow]

I have come to the conclusion I'm in the wrong business.

The thing that gets me is, would I be a bad person if I sold people tiny bottles of shit and shiny cables for a fortune?

Is taking money from idiots bad or a justifiable punishment?

I've long been of that opinion about my own career, there is a yuge resource of idiocy out there just waiting to be exploited, in fact they're often begging to be exploited and will hand over their money with a smile on their face, but even better, they'll then tell other gullible idiots how great the deal was and be completely sincere about it.

It is absolutely clear that in the majority of cases of audiophoolery that there isn't any downside (other than mild, easily ignored ridicule) to selling the BS because people *want* to be conned, they want to believe they are somehow special, golden ears listeners.

I'm thinking I may have to visit my local stone merchant and see if they'll sell me some of their waste stone offcuts.

That reminds me of people who buy Apple products.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

[bd139]

Like me with my 2x MBP's, 4x iPhones, 1x iMac, 1x Apple TV in the house 

(I use them because I make glorious piles of money rather than fixing shit)

[Mr. Scram]

Like me with my 2x MBP's, 4x iPhones, 1x iMac, 1x Apple TV in the house 

(I use them because I make glorious piles of money rather than fixing shit)

Are you implying Apple products don't need fixing, or are you saying something else?

[bd139]

No I'm saying that it's a tool. It is a device for producing something. It's a complicated screwdriver. It's an income generator for me. The screwdriver happens not to disintegrate in your hands. The implication that you are a dumbass for picking a tool is immature and reminiscent of the "my dad can fight your dad" in the playground 

If something doesn't do something at all or fails to live up to its claims then that's on topic.

[djos]

Like me with my 2x MBP's, 4x iPhones, 1x iMac, 1x Apple TV in the house 

(I use them because I make glorious piles of money rather than fixing shit)

Apple fan boi here too, our 3 main computers in our house are Mac's, but I also run a Linux server and a Windows server. Using Mac's means ease of use and a generally hassle free computing experience. They also last 7 - 10 years (my 2007 MacBook is only just EOL now) so are worth the cost.

[Cerebus]

The implication that you are a dumbass for picking a tool is immature and reminiscent of the "my dad can fight your dad" in the playground 

Indeed. Please people, can the Apple haters just please knock it off. On average every couple of days I see some muppet randomly spout off in some completely unrelated thread about how lame Apple are, or how lame Apple users are. It's tiresome, it's childish. There are much better things to talk about and comment on.

What does it say about one, if one is defined by hating what other people do, or like, or use, so much that one must mention it at every opportunity, and if an opportunity doesn't present itself, saying it anyway? I'm reminded of those persistently outspoken homophobic politicians - and then we get to hear about the string of rent boys. What are you lot doing, renting MacBooks by the half hour in seedy dark alleyways?

What would it get like around here if people started giving Fluke, or HP, or Keithley, or Siglent, or Rigol,  the 'Apple treatment'?

Oh, and I always won those playground "my dad can fight your dad" contests; WWII Commando and unarmed combat instructor, you bet my dad could beat them.