Why not do this?
Much more stable (high open loop gain). Note the regulator is heatsunk to the same heat spreader as the transistor, because it dissipates a proportional amount of power.
(And no, the TL431 isn't necessary.)
Tim
This is a great suggestion, and for a similar application too - thanks! The 7805 will indeed get toasty dropping 12V down to 5V, but for a heater circuit couldn't the voltage regulator be eliminated altogether? The heater circuit should run fine at 12V assuming the op-amp can take it, right?
Why not do this? ... Much more stable (high open loop gain). Note the regulator is heatsunk to the same heat spreader as the transistor, because it dissipates a proportional amount of power.
are you expecting self oscillating "bang-bang" control? Linear would be better but you have to have the pass Q pkg handle the heat too in a Linear design not that that's a problem with SOT-223 or 89, Dpak, D2...
Your schematic has problems:
- Self heating of the thermistor may cause a few degrees of error. (Probably a small niggle, but it causes VCC sensitivity, and is an easily solved design issue.)
- The op-amp is fixed gain, so the accuracy won't be good anyway.
- Putting caps on op-amp inputs is a bad idea.
The darlington has the same gain as the MOSFET -- the source/emitter degeneration resistor dominates. Either is fine. I didn't have a PMOS handy for that project, and BJTs are cheaper anyway.
SMTs for an oven are kind of dubious, just because you don't have any good way to spread the heat out. In my project, the regulator and transistor were soldered to a sheet of, I think, 8oz copper, which wrapped around the PCB.
D/D2PAKs could be soldered to a heat slug very nicely, but you need to arrange that somehow. (You can even get PCBs with heavy copper, and slugs, and stuff in them, but... yeah... custom $$$...)
Anyway, FETs comparable to IRF510 (which itself is stupid cheap!) are available in anything you can think of: SO-8, SOT-223, SOT-89, DPAK... Likewise, TIP32C --> MJD32C (DPAK).
LM358 will be an okay replacement for TLV2372. It obviously works fine under the 5V conditions, and is okay for 12V, but not if it's dirty 12V. Nice thing about the bipolar output: it biases the op-amp's output stage, which eliminates LM358 crossover distortion. That's something you might miss with a MOSFET output.
Tim
Why not put the transistor inside too? It dissipates as much as the resistors (if not more). And that way, you only need one pair of high current wires (+V and GND) to the blob, not three.
The dissipations aren't evenly shared, though (between transistor and resistors). It might be beneficial to split the transistor into several, one for each resistor. Then each transistor-resistor pair is a linear (voltage to power) element, which helps control loop stability! (In my project, notice everything is one big current sink, so the total power is linear with control voltage.) And those can be distributed around to reduce gradient. The transistors won't need to be very big, probably the SOT-89 version of 2N3904 would be fine.
A cap from the thermistor is good, yes. A cap on the negative input pin is not a good idea, however..
Tim
I'm not entirely confident in my prediction of power dissipation of the transistor, and I want to make sure I appropriately match the power handling capability of my resistor/transistor combo. Could you look over my shoulder on this one? I understand that a full open transistor would produce about 12V on the 150 Ohm resistor (80 mA / 1W dissiptation of the resistor), but when partially open what is the maximum power dissipation I should expect in the NPN?
[Q1 would dissipate] exactly 1/4W.
I would love to work this out for myself, but that's part of my question... When I did it [a few posts above] I came up with 80mW dissipation in the NPN which is different than your 1/4W, so I'm assuming I'm doing something incorrectly... where are you getting the values to calculate power dissipation for the transistor?
Why not do this?
Much more stable (high open loop gain). Note the regulator is heatsunk to the same heat spreader as the transistor, because it dissipates a proportional amount of power.
(And no, the TL431 isn't necessary.)
Tim
It certainly can't be omitted!
5A would be the short circuit figure, if the TIP32 died. But since that doesn't happen,
The op-amp output can only go as low as ~0V. It has a 1k + 1k voltage divider on its output, so the transistors see a minimum 2.5V.
Stack two Vbe's on top, for the Darlington transistor configuration, and you're at a worst case ~3.9V, which is only 1.1A. Quite cozy!
Indeed, if the transistors ran away and the 7805 limited instead, 1.5A would be a fine limit, too.
I found this circuit took about a minute to come up to temperature (saturated at ~1A), and idled at about 200mA (12V supply), using some plastic to insulate it.
The resistor is also required because it sets the transconductance of the output stage. Without a resistor, not only would the range be nearly unlimited (more than enough to pull the 7805 into current limiting), but it might never stabilize, because the loop gain would then vary exponentially with setpoint. (This is still true at very low power, where there is a threshold before the transistors conduct (~3V on the op-amp output), and where the transition from "off" to "linear" occurs exponentially. But the gain can only be lower than the resistor-limited linear gain is, so this will not cause instability.)
Matching up the operating ranges (the op-amp's output to the transistors' input) is the first goal towards stabilizing a control loop.
Tim
I wonder if an LM317 and an NTC couldn't do almost all of it and at the same time be procted against over temp
I wonder if an LM317 and an NTC couldn't do almost all of it and at the same time be procted against over temp
This seems ideal because it minimizes component count, has current limiting and thermal protection built in, and the LM317 (which would be the primary heating element) is in a package easy to mount to a metal enclosure... It feels weird to short the output of the LM317 (or LM7805) to ground to use the regulator as the primary heating element, but it should be able to take it right?
Ah, that makes sense. It's important in stabilizing the loop in this op-amp / analog control configuration. Curiously, if the base of the Darlington were driven with TTL levels (slow PWM or even bang-bang temperature regulation), would the 1 Ohm resistor then become unnecessary? [appreciating it may not control temperature as finely, and may be undesired for RF applications, but also that the power dissipation of the transistor would be greatly diminished, and that the 7805 would become the primary heating element, and the 1.5A internal regulation of the 7805 would always be used while heating]