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Does anyone share my concern that there is not enough emphasis placed on the safe usage of Lithium batteries - given how much public proliferation there is an DIY hobbyist activity.
Im sure most viewers here will be well aware of the high profile Lion battery fires, burning down houses etc plenty to see on Google and YT.
What is alarming to me is the numerous YT vids of rank amateurs/informed persons who should know better messing around building battery banks on kitchen tables without realising the risks and the inherently bad practices they are promoting.
Those little batteries look so harmless and inoffensive lying on a bench - dont they.
IMHO the experimenter should be approaching the topic with the same dedicated care you might devote to building an IED land mine.
Way too OTT you might say - till you see how many silly mistakes are made with accidental short circuits, blowing things up etc - all because of careless hasty quick fix practice (we all do that dont we?)
Its the in built belief that we are dealing with ELVs 12-48vdc so not a shock hazard in the code sense (not always true btw ask a sailor).
But its the hidden potential for large stored energy releases suddenly in bursts of 1000's even 20,000 Amps, causing fire, explosion, Arc Flash - instant damage to unprotected skin and eyes from UV and arc spatter. Think of a stick welder arc x 1000. This is to put the topic into perspective and maybe at the extreme end of what can happen in practice.
Do you need to be aware of the risks?
Why do you build Battery banks, wiring, exposed live parts etc and messing with them so blatantly? Would you do the same thing if these part were live at 240v or higher?
See what I mean guys?
IMHO as a responsible forum we should develop a sticky on Safe Practice for Lithium Battery Banks here - cos I haven't seen one anywhere else
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There's an entire Facebook group of people whose DIY PowerWalls have gone a bit firey. I personally would only put a DIY battery at least 3m away from my home and on a structure that would not be devastating if it was destroyed (like a garden shed). I would definitely NEVER have such equipment in or on my house.
I have noticed that 18650 batteries from bare cell providers like Samsung and Panasonic are now printed with disclaimers, for instance:
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fbattery-warning-labels-v0-jeeer1xcjhtb1.png%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3De89e3cccfc651251c2539bc91e113faa766de409
And they are running campaigns to discourage their usage by non-professionals...
https://www.prba.org/press-releases/battery-industry-begins-public-safety-campaign-against-misuse-of-li-ion-cells-in-e-cigarettes-6396/
Though most of these campaigns refer to e-cigs as the most common source of hazard, I am sure they are aware of the home powerwall guys. -
Does anyone share my concern that there is not enough emphasis placed on the safe usage of Lithium batteries - given how much public proliferation there is an DIY hobbyist activity.
Yes. I'm personally not all for babysitting adults too much, but I'm all for informing them properly.Im sure most viewers here will be well aware of the high profile Lion battery fires, burning down houses etc plenty to see on Google and YT.
While most are probably well aware, I think (judging from a lot of posts) that many of them downplay the risks a lot, sometimes to the point of not even being convinced there is any risk at all.
While admittedly the actual risks are pretty low with *well-designed* batteries, even if you abuse them, not-so-well designed batteries are just everywhere, and the risks with these is pretty real. Especially for larger capacities.
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Why do you build Battery banks, wiring, exposed live parts etc and messing with them so blatantly? Would you do the same thing if these part were live at 240v or higher?
See what I mean guys?
Yes and do so frequently. -
What you do alone in the privacy of your shed is your funeral.
Would you let your kids loose to play around with these batteries. Would you make smart ass vids on YT "look and me see what I have done"
You dont see many vids - I hope - encouraging numpties to mess with live mains electrics?
So why dont we treat Lithium batteries with the same respect - they can burn your house down as per Escooter vids left on charge over night etc, Cheapo Vapers,
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Get some strong coffee and look at booking a holiday, sound like you really need one.
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I think we really just have to leave the user to be responsible with the stuff they buy. Otherwise we would have to just ban absolutely everything!
Think Alcohol, cleaning chemicals, pool chemicals, petrol, power tools, knives, etc. etc. All of these can be extremely dangerous (even in normal use) but we shouldn’t be banning them or making people sign liability waivers to use them or what not.
Don’t get me wrong, if a company is making something unsafe, we should shit all over them and I am all for sharing as much info as possible to keep people safe
Plus, I think the vast majority of people know LiIon or LIPO batteries can be dangerous. Problem is you have to consider the lowest common denominator who will never take the time to learn about safety about anything cos it’s “boring”. -
I think we really just have to leave the user to be responsible with the stuff they buy.
This is a big part of these problems of "unsafe" items ending up in consumer hands, buying desirable object (laser pointer, collimated LED torch, bare lithium batteries, pure metals, etc before getting to boring things like knock-off USB charger) and unwittingly becoming the importer responsible for the legal ramifications.
For instance Panasonic make a good portion of the worlds lithium batteries (historically, and now). This is their position:QuoteFAQ0139 Can an individual customer purchase batteries that are not available in stores?
Yet people go out of their way to obtain the bare cells through unapproved channels (with all the risks that poses).
Answer:
Batteries not available in stores are exclusively for OEM use.
They are for industrial use and therefore not available for sales to individual users.Problem is you have to consider the lowest common denominator who will never take the time to learn about safety about anything cos it’s “boring”.
Even without going to lowest common denominator extremes, having certain things available on the open market just invites their misuse. Australia banned rewireable "piggyback" mains connectors because despite their valuable uses, and clear instructions on the packaging, idiots were occasionally making dangerous extension leads. Which they still can with regular male plugs!
Remove supply and/or information and the unwashed accuse people of protectionism/gatekeeping/restraint. But they don't want to take on the liability when things go wrong. -
There's an entire Facebook group of people whose DIY PowerWalls have gone a bit firey. I personally would only put a DIY battery at least 3m away from my home and on a structure that would not be devastating if it was destroyed (like a garden shed). I would definitely NEVER have such equipment in or on my house.
I find this interesting/confusing - as I'm considering a repair to my Makita 18V battery (10 cell pack) with a likely bricked BMS.
My premise is that, I could understand how it operates, do the work safely, and test it. And that is what electronics hobbyists do.
And I could be able to do it, or "safely" fail to do it, or at least haul a few single cells from it for other project/repairs.
I do agree that I won't be building very large batteries or delving into very high voltage equipment anytime soon, on safety concerns.
Some DIY projects look safe - perhaps deceptively.
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Yeah guys its easy to take the far out, laid back, outa sight position, BUT what enflames me is that YT openly allows vids created by amateurs making lithium battery banks on a kitchen table, no warnings, unsafe handling and design practices. YT prohibit vids on making explosive devices. It suggest age restricted categories
Q
Age-restricted content
Note: The list below isn't complete.
Sometimes content doesn't violate our policies, but it may not be appropriate for viewers under 18. When we decide whether to age-restrict or remove content, we may consider what’s listed below. Saying, “Don’t try this at home” may not result in an exception if the content promotes or celebrates dangerous behavior.
The act in question could lead to serious injury or death.
The individuals participating in the act are trained professionals and take precautions to prevent injury.
Minors could easily imitate the act.
The content is educational, documentary, scientific, or artistic in nature.
There's commentary that discourages the act.
The viewer can tell that the act is real or fake.
UQ
What about the MMMs Middle-aged menopausal muddler, no technical background, self taught by buzzwords. We've all seen these Granpa vids - in your face - waste of space but sadly messing with Lithium banks not realising the potential hazards - cos they dont shock you, must be ok.
I'll see if I get any joy with YT in insisting on displaying a public warning banner but will it infringe on AD revenue $$$
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You should start a protest then, you obviously feel very strongly about what other people choose to get up to.
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And why not start here - board promotes itself as a fund of knowledge on electrical matters
Big Yawn so far - but not trivial by those who have experienced the hazards of dc over-current faults - notably the yachties
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No small 18650 pack is outputting 20kA so your fears of arc flash etc are overstated. The biggest risk with 18650s and the like is thermal runaway due to short circuits.
Even a Tesla Model S 85kWh battery fully charged has a short circuit capacity of only around 5kA. If you're fucking around with that though I'm sure the 400V will get you before the arc flash does. A direct short across the pack will blow the main fuse and probably even some cell level fuses, so the party ends pretty quick. Bypass the main fuse for thermal runaway. (Do not do this!!) -
Yeah guys its easy to take the far out, laid back, outa sight position, BUT what enflames me is that YT openly allows vids created by amateurs making lithium battery banks on a kitchen table, no warnings, unsafe handling and design practices. YT prohibit vids on making explosive devices. It suggest age restricted categories
If your concern is YT censoring some content while letting some very other dubious content flourish, well certainly.
Usually the rationale is easy to understand once your follow the money. -
No small 18650 pack is outputting 20kA so your fears of arc flash etc are overstated. The biggest risk with 18650s and the like is thermal runaway due to short circuits.
Fears of arc flash are NOT overstated. I've seen this happen on light mobility battery packs (like the ones found in small motor cycles) causing the pack to catch fire. Even with all the safeties in place and properly rated fuses. I'll admit this was in a special condition outside normal operating parameters but still... In the end a battery is a device which can release it's contained energy in a violent way. -
Doubtless most EEVbloggers will be familiar with Andy (certainly in Offgridder DIY solar power circles) https://www.youtube.com/@OffGridGarageAustralia
Not in any way to disrespect the tremendous work he has done on Solar batteries etc over 3-4 years. Truly a dedicated proponent of this new technology. My point of concern is that he makes it so well presented that it may attract many amateur DIY wannabe off gridders who may have only elementary grasp of electrical fundamentsl. I daresay that meany here will admit to a limited experience of ELV high dc current systems. It certainly woke my own ideas up as I never had need to venture into that specialised area of Electrical Engineering.
So Andy is now encouraging all these followers into this potentially hazardous area. Fortunately the Cousins are ahead of most as they have a very large community of time served off gridders and their own NEC 2020 has now come into force to lay down codes and safe practices
. Same goes for the Yachties - hello Sailor - who have their own code of practice for Marine environments and also a long traditional with LAB storage batteries and ELV electrical installations ABYC codes A31
Even Andy's own garage is nowhere near code compliant - no outside firemans breaker switch and primary main fuse for example etc for his 100 + kWh stored energy rig.
ABYC owners had to be compliant or they wouldnt get insurance cover for their floating assets.
Off gridders put their solar gear into a shed a good way away from the main house - and the shed and kit probably isnt insurable (what do the neighbours think?)
I am simply pointing out here that we are tacitly accepting the situation on YT where the "kids are being encouraged to play with matches" Andy hasnt responded about my warning sounds, and he still meddles with lives circuits, open busbars etc WITHOUT WEARING GOGGLES -
Even the professionals get it wrong
https://fsri.org/research-update/report-four-firefighters-injured-lithium-ion-battery-energy-storage-system
OBTW all the codes and regulations are fine till you go out and try and source suitable gear to fit your splendid set of roof panels (the salesman sold you). What the industry doesnt tell, is how much extra kit you need to hook these panels properly up to a storage and inverter installation (before you even considered selling it to the Utility Company). They have a proprietary system under government grant in OZ but AFAIK it just covers panels and c/o switchgear to the house circuit - no storage batteries involved - in fact against the terms of contract- I think. Andy knows
Trying to find dc rated gear for switches, contactors, fuse links, isolators, breakers - it all appears to me as rampant quackery carpetbagging
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Not really, it's more because there's no 100/120Hz zero crossing point like there is in AC systems to help you disconnect and extinguish the arc, so DC protection gear has to be more robust for a given current/voltage.
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Not really, it's more because there's no 100/120Hz zero crossing point like there is in AC systems to help you disconnect and extinguish the arc, so DC protection gear has to be more robust for a given current/voltage.
You will find listing for switchgear (from PRC) under the solar power bandwagon rated 63A mains voltage - and higher. Are you suggesting DIY enthusiasts apply a factor of safety? What should it be, HOW MUCH MORE ROBUST? eg 2:1 (32Adc) 4:1 (16Adc) 10:1 (6Adc) or do not use.
What is safe to use under
a) Isolation but can carry full load A
b) Breaking Full load A at max voltage
c) Withstanding fault current spike - without contact welding
Reputable Manufacturers give these ratings for ac often supported by independent Authorities like UL. They even sometimes give dc ratings derated by a significant amount
Are there reliable products on the market to meet the Solar power needs at a price he is willing to pay (industrial product may cost more that the Panel installation)?
What do they do in EVs? Given high dc volts (50kW @ 400V in a public charging station). What circuit protection devices do they use - actual practice - not speculation pls.
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Not really, it's more because there's no 100/120Hz zero crossing point like there is in AC systems to help you disconnect and extinguish the arc, so DC protection gear has to be more robust for a given current/voltage.
You will find listing for switchgear (from PRC) under the solar power bandwagon rated 63A mains voltage - and higher. Are you suggesting DIY enthusiasts apply a factor of safety? What should it be, HOW MUCH MORE ROBUST? eg 2:1 (32Adc) 4:1 (16Adc) 10:1 (6Adc) or do not use.
What is safe to use under
a) Isolation but can carry full load A
b) Breaking Full load A at max voltage
c) Withstanding fault current spike - without contact welding
Reputable Manufacturers give these ratings for ac often supported by independent Authorities like UL. They even sometimes give dc ratings derated by a significant amount
Are there reliable products on the market to meet the Solar power needs at a price he is willing to pay (industrial product may cost more that the Panel installation)?
What do they do in EVs? Given high dc volts (50kW @ 400V in a public charging station). What circuit protection devices do they use - actual practice - not speculation pls.
I'd use something locally certified, it certainly looks like a problem though. The short answer is the stuff is available, but might be more expensive than you'd like.
As for EVs, idk, you'd have to employ the services of your favourite search engine for that. I'm going to speculate that it's a combination of HBC fuses in the battery pack, and isolation of the AC supply to the charger rather than trying to break the DC when the AC supply is still on. -
OK try and suggest a UK/EU available lockable isolator, circuit breaker and separate fuse link for 63A dc @ 48Vdc working @5kAdc min fault condition
As for EV's the industry it is very coy about revealing safety details and (quite rightly) seeks to keep meddling DIY car owners well away from lethal 400Vdc battery systems.
Is there a Fireman's switch, master isolator on an EV? We have seen many spectacular fires when these EVs go ape. Firemen can only stand and let it burnt hour for 8 hours and stop the fire spreading to other property Notice our ICE cars have large energy storage fuel tanks. Fault conditions with those are mercifully few and Firemen know how to handle that situation.
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From what I understand EV battery fires are more to do with thermal runaway than electrical isolation issues. Tesla have started using LiFePO cells to try and mitigate against this, I believe?
As for the solar PV parts, I'd try talking to your local branch of electrical trade suppliers. If they're any good, they'll find what you need. My involvement with high current DC stuff is decades out of date, and my solar PV experience is limited to smaller installs and also years out of date, so I don't know the current (sorry) state of the market. -
From what I understand EV battery fires are more to do with thermal runaway than electrical isolation issues. Tesla have started using LiFePO cells to try and mitigate against this, I believe?
Think it has more to do with cost and availability. -
WOW I get the impression that my banging on about Lithium battery safety has produced a big yawn here - yeah whatever
Ive just seen an astonishing vid
made from a conference of Fire safety professionals and presented by a a leading expert Professor of 20 + years studying the risks of Lithium battery cells to the public. I though I was being super careful and have realised I need to go one level further and move all such cells out of my house to an outdoor open space as the consequences of getting it wrong are disastrous and battery fires cant be extinguished. I will not be meddling with LiBs indoors anymore - strictly outdoors testing. If one cell goes goes critical it can burn your house down.
Watch this video and make up you own minds - I feel totally chastened and humbled by my own lack of appreciation of what can happen
The closing words from the Prof were " Spread the word and educate people". This is a world wide problem. The London Fire Brigade reported an average 2 fires per week caused by Lithium batteries (similar for New York) -
Also the misinformation is big, people think using water on li-ion battery fires will make the fire worse....
The risks are growing. There are many companies selling home batteries today. People also DIY-ing them. Using even scrap EV units.
Lots of them advertise the unit placed near the fusebox, in the attic next to the pv inverter, or even in a cupboard indoors.
Complete disregard for safety because they're done by enthausistic "innovators". And many youtube electrician influencers happily follow this trend without any second thoughts.
There still needs to be much legislation and standards drawn up for safety of these things in residentials and small business.
You should not put any big battery within or attached to the livable area of a home. Put it outdoors, or in your concrete shed meters away from your home.
Recently a dutch government body published some guidelines PGS-37 with things you should take into consideration when developing storage systems for companies. It's a start!
Any english stuff available yet? -
The sentiment of unwillingness to restrict human beings from doing something dangerous ignores a basic issue. Everyone else has to pay to clean up the mess. This includes the first responders whose lives and health are put at risk, and the taxpayers who have to pay.
Human self determination is a complicated thing. It is like in the USA, people would cross Lake Erie on foot knowing that if they got into trouble they would get a free ride on a USCG helicopter. At least that changed. New Hampshire is finally charging people for back country rescues that were entirely avoidable.
I am all for freedom to do what we want with our own bodies. But, I am totally against helmet free motorcycle use when I have to pay for housing the resulting vegetable.