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#75 Reply
Posted by
PlainName
on 11 May, 2017 17:36
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an adapted version with a small vibration motor
That's an interesting idea. I wonder if lag might be a problem, and the range wouldn't be too great, but well worth a trial. Nice thinking - once I get mine I'll have a go
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#76 Reply
Posted by
Kilrah
on 11 May, 2017 18:19
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I'm still trying to understand how this can give any useful information... Yes it will allow you to recognise temperature differences, but not quantify them. Say you go over a board, there are always temperature differences as every component will run at a different temperature even in normal operation. Everytime you can hear the temperature of something is higher you'll have no idea by how much and whether it's normal or not without using another tool...
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#77 Reply
Posted by
garnix
on 11 May, 2017 18:32
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Is this sensor capable of measuring absolute temperatures? If so (and I assume after some calibration) you could add 3 x 7segment LCD/LED to it to display the absolute temperature?
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I'm still trying to understand how this can give any useful information... Yes it will allow you to recognise temperature differences, but not quantify them. Say you go over a board, there are always temperature differences as every component will run at a different temperature even in normal operation. Everytime you can hear the temperature of something is higher you'll have no idea by how much and whether it's normal or not without using another tool...
Relative temperature data = thermal camera image without a legend, and just colors. A heat map, literally. There is plenty you can derive from that even before you add in what else you know, such as the nature of the circuit and the thermal signature of a properly operating board of the same type.
Generally malfunctioning parts get much hotter or much cooler than their surrounding parts, or than they are when operating normally. All this can be detected without absolute temperature data.
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Is this sensor capable of measuring absolute temperatures? If so (and I assume after some calibration) you could add 3 x 7segment LCD/LED to it to display the absolute temperature?
It is. Its something I might add in the future, but the open source design is inviting someone else to do it as well. Absolute temperature is not really important for what the deltaK is useful for, but adding it might somehow open up new uses. Still I have to not let feature creep set in and keep on adding things or it will never be finished. My goal here is to release a tool I have been using for years and found very useful for certain electronics tasks.
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FUNCTIONAL REQUESTS!!
So for the relaunch video I want to pack in as many uses as possible, demonstrating each, if I can.
Any ideas?
I can do a better circuit board scan than the original video, maybe short the output of some SMT SOIC's or put in some wrong resistors or what not.
Maybe some stud-finding to show off sensitivity
Scanning things in a running car engine
?
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#81 Reply
Posted by
PlainName
on 11 May, 2017 19:06
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Can it detect joists under floorboards or in the ceiling/walls?
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Can it detect joists under floorboards or in the ceiling/walls?
I've detected studs in a wall before but I dont know if it would be useful for that regularly. There needs to be a temperature difference and that might not be present in a situation where the entire wall has reached equilibrium. But I'll do some tests and see what I find
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#83 Reply
Posted by
mtdoc
on 11 May, 2017 19:41
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exoticelectron,
The new prototype looks good except that as discussed, it will be too large and heavy to entice myself or other physicians to carry in our pockets for occasional use.
How about a second, smaller version with smaller button, switch, and speaker - powered by a smaller battery(s)?. Battery life would not be critical for that use case. Maybe after the initial product release?
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#84 Reply
Posted by
PlainName
on 12 May, 2017 06:29
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I've detected studs in a wall before but I dont know if it would be useful for that regularly.
I mentioned it as something you could demo in a video. Doesn't have to work perfectly every time, just the once that you're showing it off
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#85 Reply
Posted by
frenky
on 12 May, 2017 11:14
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I think that main feature missing is this:
https://goo.gl/9T1RZQ I would love to have a tiny thermal module (able to show actual temp) on my keychain.
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#86 Reply
Posted by
frenky
on 15 May, 2017 08:07
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#87 Reply
Posted by
garnix
on 15 May, 2017 09:04
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Yes, but all those seem to have a measure time of 0.8 sec. So a “swipe operation” over an electronic board to quickly find temperature differences is not possible, you would have to point to each patch of the board for 1 sec to find the hotspot.
Nevertheless, I still like to have absolute temperature displayed - then you have like two devices in one: Swipe operation and spot-measuring. Otherwise I still need to buy two devices ;-)
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#88 Reply
Posted by
fcb
on 15 May, 2017 10:42
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Not sure if it's possible, but could you add an LED (red?) that illuminates the approximate area the sensor detects.
This might give the user a better understanding of what they are scanning and build up a 'feel' for the DUT (device-under-test), if you were feeling super jazzy, perhaps use a tri-colour LED and change the colour of the illuminated 'spot' depending on temperature.
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#89 Reply
Posted by
CJay
on 15 May, 2017 11:10
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Now I like that idea, dim the room, listen to the note and watch the LED illuminating the board change colour
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Hi guys, sorry for the delay, I've been swamped with major projects.
So yes, there seems to be some major misunderstandings about why the deltaK is special.
First of all, if you dont have a sub 50ms time constant for temperature to indicator, you don't have a scanner, you have a thermometer. All those devices with displays out there have very slow time constants and arent useful for scanning surfaces.
Secondly, numeric displays are useless for scanning. Tones and colors are much better. Cameras use colors because they have a fixed display you stare at. A hand held device should use a tone, that leaves your eyes free to swipe the scanner and locate where its tone is peaking.
These two things are CRITICAL. They are what make the deltaK different and special.
Adding a colored led to indicate temperature would be a gimmick only really. Different surfaces have all kinds of colors and you'd never be able to get precise temperature information from a projected color, especially if its a dark surface. Same goes for LED's you look at directly, the eye is nowhere near as sensitive to color as it is to tone, and you dont want to be watching the scanner as you also move it, that doesnt make sense.
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#91 Reply
Posted by
PlainName
on 21 May, 2017 20:07
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dont want to be watching the scanner as you also move it, that doesnt make sense
How do you know what it's pointing at?
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dont want to be watching the scanner as you also move it, that doesnt make sense
How do you know what it's pointing at?
Thats my point..its one or the other. What its pointing at, or what temperature its indicating. Not both. There is no reason to want both. Its much simpler and works great by using an audio tone for temperature and using your eyes to scan.
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#93 Reply
Posted by
fcb
on 21 May, 2017 20:36
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How do you set the height of the scanner?
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#94 Reply
Posted by
garnix
on 21 May, 2017 21:05
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I think I understand what is special about the deltaK - but at the same time I'm not sure if a lot of people (outside of detecting faults on electronics boards) initially find the scanning feature very useful, without some research what could be done with such a device - I'm not even sure if it will help for my use cases ;-)
That's why adding a color LED or vibration indicator does not really help, it would just be another GUI for the very same idea, a gimmick.
But adding an absolute temperature display would "double" your feature set. Anybody understands what a temperature measuring device is and probably some will buy it just because of that... and then later might find out the usefulness of scanning fine temperature differences.
Of course those are just my 10 cents ;-) and my guess and wishes are as good as anybody else's.
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#95 Reply
Posted by
Ben321
on 21 May, 2017 23:39
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That's not a thermal scanner. That's an IR thermometer (and those cost about $50 at Radio Shack, so they are pretty cheap). A thermal scanner is a type of thermal imager that has a pair of motorized mirrors that scan horizontally and vertical, and only a single-element thermal sensor (rather than a sensor array and stationary optics like in modern thermal imagers).
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Its interesting how some people instantly grasp what this device is and how it needs to work, and others are still thinking its a point and shoot IR thermometer.
Take a stopwatch with a numeric display. Now start the stopwatch. Now run the stopwatch over a surface while you try to accurately read the rapidly changing display while simultaneously keeping track of where the stopwatch is and what you are scanning. Cumbersome isn't it? Careful, remember you need to spot the slightest change in the numbers to have any sort of high precision.
Now take your point and shoot IR thermometer, and try mapping out a surface to find anomalies. Your time constant is about 0.5 to 1 second. So to make a 12 inch long scan with 1/4" resolution its going to take you 24 seconds. Now try scanning a 12 inch square surface with 1/8" resolution. See you in 38 minutes.
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#97 Reply
Posted by
CJay
on 22 May, 2017 06:38
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I imagine it as the thermal equivalent of a metal detector. Potentially very handy and cheap enough to be worth playing with.
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#98 Reply
Posted by
PlainName
on 22 May, 2017 07:38
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dont want to be watching the scanner as you also move it, that doesnt make sense
How do you know what it's pointing at?
Thats my point..its one or the other. What its pointing at, or what temperature its indicating. Not both.
I think you missed my drift, or I wasn't clear (more likely). If you can't see the scanner, how do you know it's pointing at the board where you're looking? It could be pointing off to the side. My supposition is that you know it is pointing the right way because you can see it in your peripheral vision. Actually, probably more to centre since it will be much closer to the board than your eyes! But the thing is that you won't be
focused on it.
That's obviously not very good for reading numbers, but for seeing colour change (or just an LED going on or off) it is perfectly adequate.
I know you're set against an LED of any kind as an indicator with this and I accept that. I'm just correcting what I think is an erroneous view that having such an indicator requires more concentration on it than a sounder does.
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#99 Reply
Posted by
Kilrah
on 22 May, 2017 14:11
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Its interesting how some people instantly grasp what this device is and how it needs to work, and others are still thinking its a point and shoot IR thermometer.
No, people have fully understood the difference - but as garnix says:
I think I understand what is special about the deltaK - but at the same time I'm not sure if a lot of people (outside of detecting faults on electronics boards) initially find the scanning feature very useful, without some research what could be done with such a device - I'm not even sure if it will help for my use cases ;-)
We understand you made a scanner, but we don't see in what common situations we might be in a scanner is good for if it doesn't ALSO have a thermometer function.
We are not good at quantizing a change in tone, so we won't be good at quantizing a temperature difference with this. And when you scan a board there will always be temperature differences between components, only when you know how much can you figure out whether they're normal or not.