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Our 3+ hour interview with free_electron
Posted by
ChrisGammell
on 30 Oct, 2013 05:46
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Holy cow - haven't listened to it yet.....but, why did it end up so long? Must have been a good talk!
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Vincent has a LOT of stories. We hardly got through any of them.
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Will be sure to listen! Love the show BTW!
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#4 Reply
Posted by
Kempy
on 30 Oct, 2013 11:30
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Holy cow - haven't listened to it yet.....but, why did it end up so long? Must have been a good talk!
I've only got about 1/4 of the way through it listening in the car on the way to work - it is great - I can't wait to drive home to listen to more
Favourite story so far is where Vincent talks about how he saved the chip fab from days of shut down by throwing a leaking canister of highly toxic gas out through a door and into the adjacent farmers field.
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#5 Reply
Posted by
cosmos
on 30 Oct, 2013 12:45
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This was fun to listen to.
I have actually been to a Alcatel Mietec FAB, possibly the one in Oudenaarde some time around 1993.
I also got the FAB tour, emergency showers and poison/corrosive warning signs everywhere.
We did at least one mixed signal circuit with with them (in 0.8u if memory serves).
The Kalma and PDP11 system were just discontinued when I started (late 80s), we where on a pair of Apollo (DN300?) and maybe one or two DN550s work stations with mentor graphics IC tools (these where 68K machines with 8-12Mhz CPU clocks).
Lots of other familiar items in this interview ...
1980s layout tools including trying Autotrax around 1990, hand routed First generation Xilinx 2000 (released around 1986 or so), had access to very early Bluetooth radios used with custom protocols, and being a general purpose problem solving resource.
Thanks for bringing back the good old times.
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#6 Reply
Posted by
jancumps
on 30 Oct, 2013 12:53
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He stole my accent
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#7 Reply
Posted by
Bored@Work
on 30 Oct, 2013 13:47
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He stole my accent
Don't worry, there is more of it where it came from.
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#8 Reply
Posted by
jucole
on 30 Oct, 2013 17:26
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Superb!!! the graduate course story was my favourite! - it sounded like the H.N.D level courses here in the UK.
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#9 Reply
Posted by
Kjelt
on 30 Oct, 2013 18:41
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3 hours? I downloaded it so I can listen to it going from home to work and back
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Favourite story so far is where Vincent talks about how he saved the chip fab from days of shut down by throwing a leaking canister of highly toxic gas out through a door and into the adjacent farmers field.
by the way : maybe it was not clear but that wasn't me .It was a collegue of mine that did that. i was off that shift. But it is a true story that has happened... i got plenty of others .like a collegue sticking his hand in the high voltage tank of an implanter ( charged at 100 kilovolt and full of PCB oil ) and getting a good jolt of a still charged capacitor dousing the entire ceiling , floor , himself and all bystanders in high voltage oil ... the door falling of the implanter in the nightshift ( i was the first responder to that one.. it completely crushed the feeder robot that sat underneath ... ) going through multiple gas and fluid alarms. seeing plant and facilities accidentally trip the main breaker of a fully loaded implanter under high vacum , turning and around and re-rengaging it... with catastrophic results .....
it'd have to be a 10 hour show just for the waferfab antics alone ...
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#11 Reply
Posted by
Kempy
on 30 Oct, 2013 19:37
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Favourite story so far is where Vincent talks about how he saved the chip fab from days of shut down by throwing a leaking canister of highly toxic gas out through a door and into the adjacent farmers field.
by the way : maybe it was not clear but that wasn't me .It was a collegue of mine that did that. i was off that shift. But it is a true story that has happened... i got plenty of others .like a collegue sticking his hand in the high voltage tank of an implanter ( charged at 100 kilovolt and full of PCB oil ) and getting a good jolt of a still charged capacitor dousing the entire ceiling , floor , himself and all bystanders in high voltage oil ... the door falling of the implanter in the nightshift ( i was the first responder to that one.. it completely crushed the feeder robot that sat underneath ... ) going through multiple gas and fluid alarms. seeing plant and facilities accidentally trip the main breaker of a fully loaded implanter under high vacum , turning and around and re-rengaging it... with catastrophic results .....
it'd have to be a 10 hour show just for the waferfab antics alone ...
You can be sure that I'll be listening to this show again - with any luck I'll get it right next time.
A 10 hour show will do just fine - about a weeks worth of driving to and from work - roll it on.
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Maybe we can just convince Vincent to start a second podcast? It ain't hard to do, if me and Dave can do it, anyone can!
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quick, somebody build a new datacenter to store podcasts ...
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I just joined the EEVBlog forum to say what a great episode this was. I did not even realize it was that long till the end and I could have listened to more stories. Great job!
-Adam
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#15 Reply
Posted by
orion242
on 30 Oct, 2013 22:16
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Maybe we can just convince Vincent to start a second podcast? It ain't hard to do, if me and Dave can do it, anyone can!
I would listen. Great show.
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#16 Reply
Posted by
miceuz
on 30 Oct, 2013 22:28
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It's probably THE most industry anecdote-loaded amphour I've ever listened to. Thanks Vincent, it was very interesting and entertaining.
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#17 Reply
Posted by
Nermash
on 31 Oct, 2013 09:09
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Great show guys, 3+ hours of very interesting stuff! Looking forward to episode no. 2
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#18 Reply
Posted by
BravoV
on 31 Oct, 2013 09:55
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Another vote, +1 for episode II.
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Great show - the 3 hours flew by - please have him on again.
Ah man - I had no clue free_electron had such a great back ground. I'll pay more attention to his posts from how on - for sure. Unlike Board@work - I usually do the opposite of what that dude says!
So you started the show with some assumptions I think the audience wasn't privy to. Did he never graduate college?
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#20 Reply
Posted by
c4757p
on 31 Oct, 2013 11:12
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This was fun to listen to. Thanks for taking the time to do it! I'd also love another one... though Dave and Chris's server might not agree
Some people seem to have an endless repository of good stories to tell.
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Was a great listen, made the work day go very quickly, a very fun show. Also, thanks for commenting on the 8051/6502.
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#22 Reply
Posted by
deephaven
on 31 Oct, 2013 12:04
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Just want to add my thanks to Vincent for giving 3 hours + of his time to make this excellent and entertaining show. Also thanks to Dave and Chris too for making it possible
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#23 Reply
Posted by
SeanB
on 31 Oct, 2013 19:11
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Vince was definitely an enjoyable and entertaining talk. You could see the commonality with Chris in the fab work as well, though it was definitely way past Chris's regular bedtime.......... I would also add a +1 for a part 2 and a part 3-25 as well. Just give Vincent a few Gb of storage and a weekend to talk to a microphone and it will be interesting as a monologue anyway.
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#24 Reply
Posted by
timb
on 31 Oct, 2013 22:57
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quick, somebody build a new datacenter to store podcasts ...
I could seriously have sat there all day (and the next, and the next and all weekend) listening, what a great show!
Though, I do have a few questions about the issues you raised with Bluetooth:
I am curious, what's your source on Apple not allowing A2DP (stereo audio) streaming from the iPhone? Because if I remember correctly, that's been available since at least iOS 2.0/iPhone 3G debuted in 2008. The original iPhone came out in June of 2007, however Apple had already gone DRM free on all their music in April of that year so I can't really see them being concerned with somebody ripping a stream when the music is already available DRM free in 256Kbps AAC.
(Not to mention the fact that Bluetooth supports SCMT for the streaming of DRM secured audio.)
Stereo audio quality over Bluetooth can be quite good, as AVDTP is just a transport protocol and can encapsulate everything from MP3 to AAC and beyond. If you use something like APT-X it's basically impossible to tell the difference between a wired connection and for most OEM car audio systems the default SBC codec is actually quite good!
As for battery life, I have a BT (2.1) keyboard here that's at least 5 years old. I get about a year on a set of two AA batteries. Maybe 3 months on the mouse. Considering I don't have a tiny dongle to use that also takes up a USB port, I feel like I can live with dropping a set of rechargeable batteries in every now and then. (That figure will also drastically increase for newer BT4 devices!)
Bluetooth is alive and well and not dying out anytime soon. Headset + Stereo Audio streaming is here to stay and BT4 (Bluetooth Low Energy) is the future of low-speed device interconnects mainly because of the traction they already have with Wireless Human Interface Devices like mice and keyboards.
That little fruit company in Cupertino is pushing it as *the* way to connect third-party gizmos and gadgets to iOS devices (without having to go through their certification process like you would using a Lightning Cable). They've even recently released an API (as part of iOS 7) and protocol to allow actual BT4 gamepads with real analog sticks and lots of buttons to work in iOS games, which is pretty rad.
Speaking of gamepads, all the last generation consoles (Wii, PS3 and 360) all used BT controllers; the current generation Wii U uses a combination of WiFi, BT4 and NFC while the upcoming PS4 will only have BT2.1. Curiously, the Xbox One seems to lack BT altogether in favor of WiFi Direct, which seems like an odd choice, but this is Microsoft we're talking about so...
Anyway, I didn't mean to write an essay on Bluetooth! Just my take.
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#25 Reply
Posted by
BeanerSA
on 31 Oct, 2013 23:10
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Yep. Epic episode. Add it to my list of favourite TAH guests.
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#26 Reply
Posted by
madires
on 31 Oct, 2013 23:25
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Really enjoyed listening to Vincent's stories! I would appreciate a second part
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#27 Reply
Posted by
w2aew
on 01 Nov, 2013 03:18
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Really interesting show. Listen to the entire thing on my drive from Massachusetts to New Jersey yesterday.
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I enjoyed it too.
Managed to get some code monkey stuff done while listening.
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#29 Reply
Posted by
IanJ
on 01 Nov, 2013 23:14
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Really enjoyed the show.......I listened to it all in one take whilst troubleshooting a board........great stuff!
Ian.
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#30 Reply
Posted by
benst
on 02 Nov, 2013 01:04
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Thanks Vincent, Chris & Dave! I really enjoyed it. Chris & Dave couldn't get a word in! Fun to hear Vincent talk Dutch (well, Flemish?) suddenly. I had to rewind twice because my mind was still in English mode and couldn't parse a word of it.
The I2C faq reminded me that I actually mailed him a correction for it back in 1996 when I was implementing some bit-banging routines on an MC68332.
Ben
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#31 Reply
Posted by
carpelux
on 02 Nov, 2013 05:06
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Thanks for a great show!
It saved may day yesterday when I had a long train travel home after a week of work away.
Even though it was long it was so interesting and packed with information so could listen to it twice. In fact i might even get to listen to it a third time next week when tarveling again.
Great work!
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#32 Reply
Posted by
LapTop006
on 03 Nov, 2013 05:37
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I loved it, although I strongly disagree with the section bashing Open Source, sure a lot of it's crap, but if you don't think the same is true of commercial software you've not looked very far.
I end up using mostly open source software, but regularly pick up commercial tools where they're actually better.
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#33 Reply
Posted by
Razor512
on 03 Nov, 2013 13:39
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Awesome show though I wished the Q&A section was longer than 19 minutes
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Great show - the 3 hours flew by - please have him on again.
Ah man - I had no clue free_electron had such a great back ground. I'll pay more attention to his posts from how on - for sure. Unlike Board@work - I usually do the opposite of what that dude says!
So you started the show with some assumptions I think the audience wasn't privy to. Did he never graduate college?
I just joined, but it seems like no matter what I Google I always end up getting this forum in the search results, so I have been a lurker for a couple years now. It's so funny you mention Board@work because he is one of just a few names I recognize on here. That guy seems to be in almost every thread I stumble upon and is ruffling somone's feathers. I think he purposely says things out in left field just to get a rise out of everyone. He is so smooth, stealh, and ninja-like in his trolling that the guy should get an award or something, lol. I'm pretty sure he get's a good laugh at people who take him seriously.
I have listened to a lot of Amp Hour episodes, and I don't know what happened over the past month or so, but all of a sudden the show got magnitudes better than before. Chris seemed to have went from spending most episodes just laughing and not contributing much to being really focused and asking some very skillful interview questions and contributing great content. Not only did he get his sea legs and become a great host, but the content and the guests have got much better too. I have gone from listening to one episode per month to all of them.
Just like you, I'm sure I will pay more attention when I see a post by free_electron from this point on!
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#35 Reply
Posted by
tehmeme
on 04 Nov, 2013 16:48
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i second a followup interview. I found it very entertaining and enlightening.
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I loved it, although I strongly disagree with the section bashing Open Source, sure a lot of it's crap, but if you don't think the same is true of commercial software you've not looked very far.
I end up using mostly open source software, but regularly pick up commercial tools where they're actually better.
Don't pull my words out of context. Sure there are many great open source programs out there. It is just that , for what i do , i am used to the professional tools and the open source alternates don't come near anywhere close...
You can compare inkscape to illustrator, if you compare it to a 3 year old version of illustrator.
That's what i'm getting at. I want stuff that just works. I don't want stuff i need to compile myself, figure out how to install because the package manager used is not compatible with my version or flavor of OS. Nor do i want stuff that requires command lines.
Open source guys need to pull their head out of their arses and make their tools usable by USERS , not programmers. Too many open source stuff is written because they have fun writing it. focus on the user, not the coder.
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#37 Reply
Posted by
SeanB
on 04 Nov, 2013 19:27
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Chris's sudden improvement = Contextual Electronics. He has definitely improved and is a lot more relaxed with a camera looking at him.
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Completely agree, CE has helped him loosen up a bunch. He feels more comfortable talking in the third person now too.
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#39 Reply
Posted by
Christe4nM
on 04 Nov, 2013 20:45
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It's said quite a lot of times already, here's another thank you to Vincent, Dave and Chris for a great show. That 3+ hours went past way too fast. Great to find such an experienced engineer like Vincent to be so down to earth and willing to help others as well. Looking forward to the "the escaped electron rendezvous"
Although while being Dutch I could for the life of me not understand what he said to his mom even after listening it a few times. Must have been quite the Flemish dialect
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#40 Reply
Posted by
timb
on 04 Nov, 2013 22:00
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I loved it, although I strongly disagree with the section bashing Open Source, sure a lot of it's crap, but if you don't think the same is true of commercial software you've not looked very far.
I end up using mostly open source software, but regularly pick up commercial tools where they're actually better.
Don't pull my words out of context. Sure there are many great open source programs out there. It is just that , for what i do , i am used to the professional tools and the open source alternates don't come near anywhere close...
You can compare inkscape to illustrator, if you compare it to a 3 year old version of illustrator.
That's what i'm getting at. I want stuff that just works. I don't want stuff i need to compile myself, figure out how to install because the package manager used is not compatible with my version or flavor of OS. Nor do i want stuff that requires command lines.
Open source guys need to pull their head out of their arses and make their tools usable by USERS , not programmers. Too many open source stuff is written because they have fun writing it. focus on the user, not the coder.
That's what drew me to Mac OS X (and Apple) about 10 years ago. I really liked the idea of running a *NIX based workstation, but let's face it, even today it's pretty much garbage. Back when I was a teenager, I loved putting my own PCs together, tweaking every last option for "MAXXXIMUM XTREME GAMING PERFORMANCE!!!!11one" but then I grew up and didn't have time to fiddle with all this stuff, I wanted something that just worked. Windows worked but required a lot of maintenance. OS X married a wonderful 3D accelerated GUI with a BSD core that was built up with Open Source software.
This is another reason why I don't mind paying for a professional compiler/debug package; when I've got a looming project deadline and client breathing down my neck, I don't have time to sit around tweaking Makefiles and hoping GCC will work.
That's not to say professional tools aren't without their flaws, they're often times a nightmare of old code dating back decades with one fix glued on top of the next. That's not even mentioning the outrageous prices some of them cost!
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I don't understand the criticism of open source. No-one HAS to use it. You aren't required to pay for it. Open source programmers don't have there heads in their arses just because they enjoy writing it and have no pressing desire to make it into something in a form someone else wants. Many of them do enjoy making it useable for others and devote a good proportion of their time doing just that.
It exists as just another option. Open source is like a living organism, it evolves over time and the strongest thrive by attracting willing hosts to nurture them and the weaker stagnate and wither. The community decides which is which. It is the ultimate expression of democracy. The cream ALWAYS rises to the top.
None of that is the issue nor the problems i have with open source.
The problem is there are no open source equivalents that offer the same (ease of use, ease of install ,learning curve, maintenance, workability and fit-for-purpose) to the commercial tools i am used to. That is all.
Give me an open source equivalent with the SAME or more Capabilities than Altium and will switch in a minute. I don't use a lot of tools . Here is the list
Altium , Keil ARM and 8051 toolchain, MikroE ARM/PIC/AVR Basic compiler. Visual Basic , Microsoft Office. Adobe Premiere and After Effects and the whole master Suite from Adobe).
That's about it. So far i haven't found anything that comes even close to those tools in the Open source market. There's always things the tools can't do , files formats they can't read , libraries that need compilation or installers that are not compatible with whatever flavor of Linux you are running. I don't want to deal with any of that. I want a setup.exe ( or the equivalent) that installs it and done. I am a USER , not a coder. i have zero interest in the source. absolutely none. I also don't want to hear excuses about 'the file formats are proprietary or non standard compliant. Not my problem. you are the coder : you solve it. i am a user. can you or can you not do it ? No ? thank you goodbye. Come back when it works. It is that easy. you don't need to look for any other motivation behind it.
It is not a matter of love/hate. I don't hate open source. I frequently download open source tools like inkscape and others to see how they evolve.
Then the three questions come :
did the install work ? <-if i need to mess around finding libraries / other prerequisites and executing command line stuff this fails immediately.
does it do ALL i expect it to do ? (read same file formats , have same functionality as my current tool)
Is it just as easy to use as the tool i know ?
if one of em fails : game over.
Don't look for any other reasons.
inkscape is not a replacement for illustrator
gimp is not a replacement for photoshop
openoffice is not a replacement for microsoft office
simply because there is always base functionality i expect that doesn't work ( file format inconsistencies , data exchange problems , not being able to run my VB macros , problems with video codecs , )
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I haven't listened to much of this interview yet. I planned to go through the whole thing tonight.
But I find his open source comments kind of shocking. I'm a web developer and programmer, and open source is absolutely king in this space. A good example of this is WordPress. It is installed on at least 60 million websites, and I heard a talk by the founder and he said it is installed on a new website on average of something like 5 times every second of the day. I don't think anyone can name a paid blogging software that is better.
The Inkscape example is just silly. 3 years ago Illustrator was better than it is currently. Now they have version CC which means it's cloud based so you never own it and must keep paying membership fees to use it. Going back to when CS6 came out it was mostly cosmetic changes with just a handful of new features. Just because something doesn't have all the whiz bang features doesn't make it garbage. Illustrator is a good example of why sometimes open-source is better. I don't actually care much for Illustrator and years ago there was a product far superior to it called FreeHand. Adobe bought Macromedia, the company that made it, and killed it off. In opensource you don't have innovation being held back for financial reasons. With a hive mind formed by a group of people the best ideas usually go forward. In contrast Adobe has a long history of holding back features so they can keep making small incremental changes to charge huge money for uprades.
I have nothing against open-source or paid software, but to dismiss something as bad just because it's open-source is just plain silly. If it wasn't for open-source software none of us would even be on this forum right now, since the database and server OS are both open-source. Not to mention Dave's blog is also open-source. Over half the Internet is run by open-source. I have never understood people who bash open-source. They defend their point of view with cherry-picked examples, when there are hundreds of examples of excellent open source projects.
As far as Chris. You guys are smart. I never made the connection. It totally makes sense though. He cranked out content like a mad man for CE, so he got years of experience in a matter of weeks. PS. Chris, love your 3rd person comment. Very funny :-)
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#43 Reply
Posted by
c4757p
on 05 Nov, 2013 00:39
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openoffice is not a replacement for microsoft office
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not being able to run my VB macros
It's a shame they don't put more effort into VB macros, because that is one of the few things remaining that don't work. Other than that, it's quite a usable replacement for MS.
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#44 Reply
Posted by
tehmeme
on 05 Nov, 2013 00:54
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Why are people being shocked by free_electrons stance? Is this some sort of over defensiveness?
Unless I missed something (I suspect I have), free_electron made it clear that he isn't against OSS, he uses what suites his needs.
The question on amphour related to electronics related OSS (implied by being asked on an EE podcast) and he responded accordingly.
Nearly all of my software & OS are oss but occasionally I will need to use commercial &/or proprietary software because the oss alternative doesn't suite my needs. Even if the oss will fulfil 95% of my needs, I will use the commercial alternative if the 5% is important to me.
Why the uproar?
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I haven't listened to much of this interview yet. I planned to go through the whole thing tonight.
But I find his open source comments kind of shocking. I'm a web developer and programmer, and open source is absolutely king in this space.
You are again pulling stuff out of context !
The question that was asked is "why don't you use open source tools for what
YOU do"
My answer was : "because none of the open source tools available for what
I DO are up to par to my currently used tools."
It's that easy ! I'm gonna yell now so you get it : I DON'T DO WEB DEVELOPMENT ! I DON'T BUILD SERVERS ! I DON'T ANY OF THE MYRIAD OTHER THINGS LINUX AND OPEN SOURCE MAY EXCEL AT. SO I DON'T CARE THAT OPEN SOURCE IS KING THERE !
FOR WHAT I WANT TO DO IT IS SIMPLY NOT UP TO PAR TO MY CURRENT TOOLS
got it now ? (sorry for yelling )
I make complex PCB's using Altium , i use Illustrator to make technical drawings that need to be able to be read by Adobe InDesign , i write books in MS Word so Indesign. (My publisher demands documents to be delivered in MS Word format with links to embedded metafiles (EMF format) with drawing sources in Illustrator compatible format or photoshop compatible format )). I write software in Visual Basic and some other compilers for processors.
Are there open source equivalents that offer same capability for those ? No ! it's as simple as that.
If i want to go from US to Europe , i don't want to hear about all the benefits of car's and trains. My question is can they fly across the atlantic ? No ? case closed. Offering me a solution by telling me to put the car on a boat and cross that way is too cumbersome and a waste of my time. i want to be there tomorrow, not 3 weeks from now.
It really is that simple. If it doesn't do what i want it to do i don't use it . Period. So when i am asked why i don't use open source my answer is : because it doesn't or can't do what i want it to do.
I never said open source was bad , i never said all open source is useless. all i said is : it doesn't work for what I want to do and ho i want to do it. period. Don't pull it out of context .
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#46 Reply
Posted by
timb
on 05 Nov, 2013 01:41
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I don't understand the criticism of open source. No-one HAS to use it. You aren't required to pay for it. Open source programmers don't have there heads in their arses just because they enjoy writing it and have no pressing desire to make it into something in a form someone else wants. Many of them do enjoy making it useable for others and devote a good proportion of their time doing just that.
It exists as just another option. Open source is like a living organism, it evolves over time and the strongest thrive by attracting willing hosts to nurture them and the weaker stagnate and wither. The community decides which is which. It is the ultimate expression of democracy. The cream ALWAYS rises to the top.
There's always things the tools can't do , files formats they can't read , libraries that need compilation or installers that are not compatible with whatever flavor of Linux you are running. I don't want to deal with any of that. I want a setup.exe ( or the equivalent) that installs it and done.
Actually, you *are* the problem here. Take Office's file format, for example. It's changed with almost every version, most of which were backwards incompatible with one another to the point of being an entirely new format. You'd think that .docX would solve that, being an XML file, right? Wrong! The data inside essentially a memory dump of the open file with pointers to specific locations for the formatting.
The source code to Word is like like layer after layer of hardened dog shit, complete with anthropomorphic paperclips and flowing ribbons buried many layers down, frozen in time like some sort of Poop Pompeii; so much so that Microsoft literally needs a scatological archeologist—a Dog Shit Indiana Jones, if you will—on staff to retrieve these lost artifacts, just to give them some *tiny* semblance of a clue as to just what the hell any of it actual means before they can once again drop trou and plop the latest steaming turd onto a cloud and call it a day.
There are so many good word processors out there today that would fit people's needs a million times better, but people have been convinced by good marketing that they actually need the myriad of convoluted and poorly coded features that it provides.
The same goes for Excel and Powerpoint, too. Even OpenOffice is also a piece of shit because it tries to be Office and fails miserably. (Java is partly to blame there too.)
Here's a good article on Word, with a nice brief history of word processing:
http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2013/10/why-microsoft-word-must-die.htmlIf people stopped using programs (open or closed source) that don't provide either an open standard for their data (or an easy way to export said data in a vendor neutral format) then they wouldn't find themselves locked into a product like Word. The same applies for every other piece of software too; wouldn't it be great to freely move between EDA software as you pleased, with no worry of vendor lock in?
TL;DR: Open vs Closed Source isn't the problem; Open vs Closed Standards are. Open Standards give you choice.
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#47 Reply
Posted by
AlfBaz
on 05 Nov, 2013 02:12
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One of the biggest problems I find with open source software is that nearly all of it is developed on Linux and eventually somebody ports a binary to windows.
Documentation is scarce and usually written by somebody other than the developers (as I cant imagine documenting would be much fun) and inevitably it makes reference to Linux os command line stuff witch is usually tricky on Linux let alone trying to understand it if you are a windows user.
Most open source documentation is spread all over the net and presumes you can recite Linux kernel's hex dump
. I've also found info in forums where people a gleaning operational info from the source comments and worst still you shouldn't complain because it's free
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Actually, you *are* the problem here. Take Office's file format, for example. It's changed with almost every version, most of which were backwards incompatible with one another to the point of being an entirely new format. You'd think that .docX would solve that, -snip, remaining useless drivel removed-.
If people stopped using programs (open or closed source) that don't provide either an open standard for their data
-snip: coulda woulda shouda drivel removed-
You really don't get it do you ?
My publisher asks for MS word documents in either word 2003 or later format , with links to the images. Images need to be supplied as vector art in EMS format. They prefer to have an illustrator compatible source so they can easily import my document in the pre-press software. if an .AI file is found they will read that and the pre-press software (InDesign) will use that to render the artwork in better quality.
So what do i do tell them to bugger off and give them an openoffice document with inkscape pictures instead ?
The answer will be : we can't read that. If we can't read it we can't publish it and you won't get any money off it. Fact of life. live with it. If my publisher would ask me to supply source material written in Latex i would use that. If they would ask OpenOffice format i would use that. But they don't. They want MS Office 2003 or later.
Office costs 295$ , I bought CS5 master suite as i wanted to upgrade my old Premiere and wanted to have PDF creater and Photoshop + Lightroom as well. Upgrade cost was 2400$. First book i had published paid both tools three times over. The other four books i had published basically cost me nothing in tools. i had the tools.
What is there not to understand about that? You can harp on about closed formats and convoluted formats all you want until you have a long beard. If your car needs gas to run , pissing in the tank won't make it move. You can argue until the cows come home that pee has the same color as gasoline so it should work , and harping on about how OPEC controls prices. None of that will make the car move.
I gotta go places. Fill up with gasoline and off i go. (two more months and it will be full electric. Bye OPEC
)
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One of the biggest problems I find with open source software is that nearly all of it is developed on Linux and eventually somebody ports a binary to windows.
Documentation is scarce and usually written by somebody other than the developers (as I cant imagine documenting would be much fun) and inevitably it makes reference to Linux os command line stuff witch is usually tricky on Linux let alone trying to understand it if you are a windows user.
Most open source documentation is spread all over the net and presumes you can recite Linux kernel's hex dump . I've also found info in forums where people a gleaning operational info from the source comments and worst still you shouldn't complain because it's free
worse .. if you dare ask questions it invariably either ends up in shitstorm discussion about VI vs Emacs , KDE vs Gnome and what color scheme you are using.... or you are a NOOB and LUSER because, hey, you got the source , you should be able to fix it yourself...
Sorry Open source community. You live in a different reality...
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#50 Reply
Posted by
Seg
on 05 Nov, 2013 03:19
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Whining about Open Source is soooo 1998.
(Speaking as someone who recently gave up using Fedora on the desktop. Sorry guys, you lost the desktop war. Time's up and the desktop is irrelevant. Windows is dying and Android is the future, which is at least partially open source.)
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#51 Reply
Posted by
c4757p
on 05 Nov, 2013 03:22
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Time's up and the desktop is irrelevant.
Sweet baby Jesus I hope not.
Personally, I do not care who "lost" or "won" or what shiny bullshit is the "future", I will use what I like. Android's nice when I want to accomplish nothing of value. For the rest of the time, it can suck a big fat......
These new tablet/phone/touch systems are the Fisher Price Servin' Surprises Cash Register to a real point of sale terminal.
Read the subject and stop the hijack please.
Thank you - sorry.
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Read the subject and stop the hijack please.
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#53 Reply
Posted by
timb
on 05 Nov, 2013 03:32
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Actually, you *are* the problem here. Take Office's file format, for example. It's changed with almost every version, most of which were backwards incompatible with one another to the point of being an entirely new format. You'd think that .docX would solve that, -snip, remaining useless drivel removed-.
If people stopped using programs (open or closed source) that don't provide either an open standard for their data
-snip: coulda woulda shouda drivel removed-
You really don't get it do you ?
My publisher asks for MS word documents in either word 2003 or later format , with links to the images. Images need to be supplied as vector art in EMS format. They prefer to have an illustrator compatible source so they can easily import my document in the pre-press software. if an .AI file is found they will read that and the pre-press software (InDesign) will use that to render the artwork in better quality.
So what do i do tell them to bugger off and give them an openoffice document with inkscape pictures instead ?
The answer will be : we can't read that. If we can't read it we can't publish it and you won't get any money off it. Fact of life. live with it. If my publisher would ask me to supply source material written in Latex i would use that. If they would ask OpenOffice format i would use that. But they don't. They want MS Office 2003 or later.
Office costs 295$ , I bought CS5 master suite as i wanted to upgrade my old Premiere and wanted to have PDF creater and Photoshop + Lightroom as well. Upgrade cost was 2400$. First book i had published paid both tools three times over. The other four books i had published basically cost me nothing in tools. i had the tools.
What is there not to understand about that? You can harp on about closed formats and convoluted formats all you want until you have a long beard. If your car needs gas to run , pissing in the tank won't make it move. You can argue until the cows come home that pee has the same color as gasoline so it should work , and harping on about how OPEC controls prices. None of that will make the car move.
I gotta go places. Fill up with gasoline and off i go. (two more months and it will be full electric. Bye OPEC )
Actually, I *do* get it. I'm an author too, currently writing a book for McGraw-Hill's TAB label. As long as your editor can open the document in Word with basic markup intact, it doesn't really matter what you wrote it in! That text is just being copied/pasted into layout software and being arranged by hand.
Pretty much any modern word processor these days can save a file in .docX format which will open in word. The trick is opening a .docX file saved from Word in any other software. Hell, you don't even need to save it on .docX format; .RTF or even .HTML would work (and open fine in Word) for the type of formatting you need to submit chapters to your editor!
As for Inkscape, I just took a complex .AI file, opened it in Inkscape, made a change, exported it in .SVG, .EPS and .AI then re-opened it in AI and guess what? All three files look exactly the same. There is no reason whatsoever you can't do your drawings in Inkscape, Sketch or any other Open Source/Third Party vector image software and send it to your editor as an .SVG file, I assure you the production department is smart enough to convert it (if it even needs to be) before pulling it into InDesign.
Hell, you could do your diagrams and schematics in any EDA/CAD program you want and print them straight to a PDF and convert that straight to an .AI or SVG file with some (free!) software really easily.
I use some great software to write with called Scrivener. It lets me organize my entire manuscript into a hierarchy. I can store PDF datasheets and any other research material right inside, link those items to specific pages, attach extensive notes or footnotes to specific sections, have it automatically generate outlines and tons more stuff I can't even think of right now. It's sooooo much better than Word for writing books, something Word was never designed to do.
Now here comes the neat part, there is no concept of exporting your document. Instead, you "compile" your manuscript. You have fine grained control over everything, from filling in placeholders you set to what's included or excluded and what format it's outputted as. Just need a ToC with footnotes? No problem. Want to compile simultaneously in .docX, Kindle, ePub, iBooks Author, PDF and HTML formats with fine grained control over each? Easy as cake.
Using the right tool for the job is important and Word is very much the wrong tool for writing long books, *especially* technical books. You may need all the complex features of AI or the ability to run expensive plugins, but most people don't. Following our tool analogy, Adobe CS is like a full Snap On tool chest, while Inkscape/Sketch and GIMP/Pixelmator is a box of Craftsman tools. They're both tools and will both work for 99% of people, but the Snap On chest costs $30,000 and contains every socket, bit and driver size there is (most of which only an Master Mechanic will ever use) while the toolbox of Craftsman stuff costs $100 and has a few dozen screwdrivers and pliers plus metric and imperial socket sets. Chances are, if you ever need anything outside this basic set you can either go find the specific tool you need or improvise.
As for pissing in the gas tank, you explained that one (and contradicted yourself in the process) for me! If my car took gas to run but I didn't want to use gas, I'd find an alternative mode of transport. Either public (bus/subway/taxi) or private (electric or bio-diesel car/bike). You switching to an electric car to get away from OPEC is contradictory to sticking with bad software when there are better solutions.
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Besides, any decent hobbyist has at least a dual boot machine , or all three . I got a linux, a windows and a Mac , so i can do all.
Restricting yourself to one is like saying : i will only use flathead screws. I don't want to have anything to do with phillips or torx.
Personally i like phillips and torx (windows and mac) flathead screws have a tendency to slip easily.
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#55 Reply
Posted by
BravoV
on 05 Nov, 2013 03:47
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Read the subject and stop the hijack please.
+1
C'mon guys, Vincent already stated clearly he is not against Open Source.
Keep bashing his preference using closed source apps, and also sounds like few number of people somehow keep expecting him (sort of
cmiiw) to start praising OS apps for his works is just pointless.
Back to electronic talk related to his interview, please.
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Actually, I *do* get it. I'm an author too, currently writing a book for McGraw-Hill's TAB label. As long as your editor can open the document in Word with basic markup intact, it doesn't really matter what you wrote it in! That text is just being copied/pasted into layout software and being arranged by hand.
we (my publisher and i) work differently.
I send word document , they proofread and edit content. We exchange that file. Easy, both of use have same program. I control the formatting and the template. When we both agree on the fi al document i spit out a pre-press file in PDF format that includes the registration marks, borders . I also supply the, woth a photoshop fil that comtains the cover. Some of the layers in the psd file are embedded ai vector files.
I dont need converter tools for anything. The entire adobe suite works together. I can simply slect a schematic drawing in altium hit ctrl-c in altium, click on the illustrator document and do ctrl-v. Altium stores emf graphics on the clipboard. No need for external tools or converters. Same for the pcb. Ctrl-c i. Altium, ctrl-v in illustrator. That doesn't work with inkscape (at least not last time i tried).
The same works between quartus (altera tools) waveforms and schematics and illustrator.
Last time i looked inkscape could not save AI files.
Besides, SVG is a broken standard. Inkscape doesnt support it fully to start...
Hell, you could do your diagrams and schematics in any EDA/CAD program you want and print them straight to a PDF and convert that straight to an .AI or SVG file with some (free!) software really easily.
Why all those intermediate steps. Ctrl-c ctrl-v. I dont need to print to pdf, don't need to remove clipping regions set to page sizes, don't need to worry about missing fonts.
Adobe CS is like a full Snap On tool chest, while Inkscape/Sketch and GIMP/Pixelmator is a box of Craftsman tools.
It's more than that. The tools integrate via the clipboard. The other analogy is more like a mixed collection of brands, all with different handles and you alwys need one more adapter piece.... Or ru. To the store for a bit that is missing. Ill take the snap-on chest. Thank you.
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#57 Reply
Posted by
timb
on 05 Nov, 2013 04:23
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This isn't off topic, he made the comment on the show and even said he expected a shit storm over it. We're discussing the merits of various workflows and how Open Source fits into that.
we (my publisher and i) work differently.
I send word document , they proofread and edit content. We exchange that file. Easy, both of use have same program. I control the formatting and the template. When we both agree on the fi al document i spit out a pre-press file in PDF format that includes the registration marks, borders . I also supply the, woth a photoshop fil that comtains the cover. Some of the layers in the psd file are embedded ai vector files.
I dont need converter tools for anything. The entire adobe suite works together. I can simply slect a schematic drawing in altium hit ctrl-c in altium, click on the illustrator document and do ctrl-v. Altium stores emf graphics on the clipboard. No need for external tools or converters. Same for the pcb. Ctrl-c i. Altium, ctrl-v in illustrator. That doesn't work with inkscape (at least not last time i tried).
You could just as easily exchange RTF files for proofreading.
If Altium is just making a copy of the Windows GDI calls (EMF) then there's no reason you can't paste that into any other vector (or bitmap) graphics software, like Inkscape. Likewise you can copy/paste between Inkscape and The GIMP. That has nothing to do with Adobe CS and more to do with how Windows (and to a better extent OS X) handle graphics in the clipboard.
It's more than that. The tools integrate via the clipboard. The other analogy is more like a mixed collection of brands, all with different handles and you alwys need one more adapter piece.... Or ru. To the store for a bit that is missing. Ill take the snap-on chest. Thank you.
Sort of, but as I explained above, having image data in the clipboard is a Windows feature, not specific to any one piece of software. Let's go with the mixed collection of tools analogy: I can use a Kobalt 1/4" drive socket head on a Craftsman 1/4" drive ratchet and they'll work just fine, just like I can copy/paste image data between say Acorn and Pixelmator on my Mac.
This wraps back to my earlier argument that open standards make all the difference. That image data moves between Altium and the Adobe CS programs in the clipboard because of a published standard and library from Microsoft. Just like how Word can open/save various other (open) formats (HTML, RTF, etc.) but other programs can't correctly open .docX files, because it's a closed format. This is good for Microsoft, because it gets you in their software and it's bad for users because it won't let you get out.
I'll take my $100 toolbox, because then I'll have $29,900 leftover to buy diagnostic equipment, a car lift and other useful gear with. I hope you've got a floor jack in that Snap On cart!
And Inkscape's native save format is based on SVG. It can also export plain SVG, AI and more:
http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Save_as_vs_export#Current_statusAs a reminder, current save formats are (at least): Inkscape SVG(Z), Plain SVG(Z), PS, EPS, Cairo PDF, Cairo PS, POV, ODG, TEX, AI (8.0), DXF, AutoCAD DXF, EPSI, GPL, XCF, XAML, Inkscape svg with media ZIP, EMF.
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#58 Reply
Posted by
timb
on 05 Nov, 2013 04:30
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Besides, any decent hobbyist has at least a dual boot machine , or all three . I got a linux, a windows and a Mac , so i can do all.
Restricting yourself to one is like saying : i will only use flathead screws. I don't want to have anything to do with phillips or torx.
Personally i like phillips and torx (windows and mac) flathead screws have a tendency to slip easily.
Haha, very well put! Though, Phillips are the ones that slip easily (by design!) and before you know it you've worn the head out and have to put a new one in! (Or just grind the head into a flathead.) Speaking of which, flathead screws are just frustrating to use.
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#59 Reply
Posted by
rolycat
on 05 Nov, 2013 04:50
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Haha, very well put! Though, Phillips are the ones that slip easily (by design!) and before you know it you've worn the head out and have to put a new one in! (Or just grind the head into a flathead.) Speaking of which, flathead screws are just frustrating to use.
Slot head screws are frustrating to use.
Flathead screws can be Phillips, Pozidriv, slotted, or any other sort of drive.
I dunno why Pozidriv hasn't replaced Phillips head by now - much less likely to cam out.
Sorry, guys - I'm being a pedant again...
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#60 Reply
Posted by
timb
on 05 Nov, 2013 05:45
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I actually originally wrote slotted, but changed it to flathead as not to change terminology in the middle of an analogy.
It's true though, flathead screws are the hermaphrodites of the fastener world. A key for every slot and a slot for every key.
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Actually, you *are* the problem here. Take Office's file format, for example. It's changed with almost every version, most of which were backwards incompatible with one another to the point of being an entirely new format. You'd think that .docX would solve that, being an XML file, right? Wrong! The data inside essentially a memory dump of the open file with pointers to specific locations for the formatting.
The source code to Word is like like layer after layer of hardened dog shit, complete with anthropomorphic paperclips and flowing ribbons buried many layers down, frozen in time like some sort of Poop Pompeii; so much so that Microsoft literally needs a scatological archeologist—a Dog Shit Indiana Jones, if you will—on staff to retrieve these lost artifacts, just to give them some *tiny* semblance of a clue as to just what the hell any of it actual means before they can once again drop trou and plop the latest steaming turd onto a cloud and call it a day.
There are so many good word processors out there today that would fit people's needs a million times better, but people have been convinced by good marketing that they actually need the myriad of convoluted and poorly coded features that it provides.
I agree with you on this post and the following one. I have hated Word for YEARS... like always! Starting way back in Office 95 and 97 it was such a bloated piece of software for the capabilities of PC's back then. It could take up half your hard drive if you had an older computer, and even if you had a standard mainstream computer it just seemed sluggish and overly complicated for basic uses.
Like you said they keep modifying their own file format so it's a complete mess. I agree with free_electron Open Office is pretty horrible, but I have sent people files created in Google Doc's in both acadamia and business and never had single complaint ever. So just as you said, who cares what is used for creation as long as people with Word, Illustrator, and so on, can open it on their end and have it render exactly as intended.
Most people don't know this, but Corel Wordperfect has much better accuracy than Word and is used heavily in the legal space, because when lawyers are creating complex forms it gives them pinpoint accuracy of where something is placed on the page, compared to Word which you often have to say to yourself "screw it, it's close enough".
Back to free_electrons comments that open source won't work for what he does, it doesn't sound like he has ever tried any alternatives, just assumed it won't work. Like you said typically you can create something in Inkspace or whatever and have it open in the $$$ version "without any trouble whatsoever" to borrow a line from Dave :-)
I can't resist commenting on the screwdriver analogy. What do you do when you strip a phillips screw? Turn it into a slotted screw so you can remove it. So slotted screws must be better, right? lol
edited: fixed a typo
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Look, we can argue till the cows come home.
I use the tools i like. Done.
Amongst them are several open source tools. And i'm perfectly fine with them. 7zip comes to mind , there is an ftp program , i use an open source disk duplicator tool.
But, i also use msword , Altium and the adobe tools.
Don't go looking for weird motives. They are simple: these tools offer functionality and features lacking in the open source alternatives.
Inkscape is not illustrator
Kicad and geda are awkward, weird and in their infancy compared to where altium is
Openoffice is not ms office.
And that's it.
I don't treat software as 'here is the open source marktt, there is the commercial market." There is only one software market. I just pick the tools i like best. Some of them are made by companoesfor profit, some of them are free, as in free beer, some of hem even include the source. As long as they do what i expect from them and don't give me lip i will ise them. If they are annoying for one reason or another i will look for something better.
First rule of engineering : if it works , don't touch it.
I actually use inkscape at work to make quick drawings and diagrams to put in powerpoint presentations (how anyone can make a drawing or diagram in powerpoint is a mystery to me. Now there is a piece of shit program. Visio is another one of these horrors). I dont use inkscape at home because i have something that works better for me : illustrator.
I don't give a rats ass about all that philosophical drivel that tools should be free, formats open and source available. We don't live in an ideal world.
Meanwhile i have work to do. I will use whatever does it in the shortest, least painful way possible.
And that's all i have to say about that.
Open source is not bad, commercial is not bad. Pick the best of what is offered. Anything else is just sheer stupidity and boneheadedness.
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#63 Reply
Posted by
timb
on 05 Nov, 2013 14:18
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Like I said before, I get not wanting to compile your entire OS from source when there are better alternatives out there. That's why I use Mac OS X and not Linux. The thing is, Microsoft Word and Adobe CS are some of the worst examples you can give for preferring closed source over open. They've become some of the worst pieces of commercial software in the world!
I don't think one person on here has disagreed with you about OpenOffice being just as horrible as MS Office. What we have said, and you can't seem to defend, is the fact there are numerous other tools, some of them open, a lot of them closed, that absolutely run circles around MS Word!
Having open standards isn't some Richard Stallman-esque "Free Love and Code" philosophical goal. It's a practical, real world method of maintaining a flourishing ecosystem of compatible applications that give users choice. I'd much rather take a little time to sit down and try a dozen or more apps out to find the one that bests suits my writing style versus having Microsoft tell me Word is all I'll ever need.
From what you've said, it doesn't seem at all like you pick the tools that will suit you the best, rather it seems like you've been using the most monopolistic tools for so long that you've actually forgotten what you need, or are just too set in your ways to bother trying anything new.
If that's the case it's perfectly acceptable. You're more than entitled to use whatever you feel comfortable with, but don't act like that attitude doesn't make you part of the problem instead of part of the solution.
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#64 Reply
Posted by
c4757p
on 05 Nov, 2013 14:28
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From what you've said, it doesn't seem at all like you pick the tools that will suit you the best, rather it seems like you've been using the most monopolistic tools for so long that you've actually forgotten what you need, or are just too set in your ways to bother trying anything new.
For anything more complicated than a screwdriver, a lot of time has to be invested in learning how to use it. I'll admit it, I am too "set in my ways" to bother, because what I use works and I have no interest in spending that much time learning an alternative screwdriver.
If that's the case it's perfectly acceptable. You're more than entitled to use whatever you feel comfortable with, but don't act like that attitude doesn't make you part of the problem instead of part of the solution.
What exactly is the "problem"? You keep prattling on about choice. There is plenty of choice. There are as many EDA packages as there are groups of people competent enough to build one. You have this dream of an open standard allowing you to move from one package to another, but it's exactly that, a dream. Not gonna happen. Lock-in happens everywhere, even in the open source world. Try making a complex document in LibreOffice and taking it to another open source word processor which can read ODF, like AbiWord. Take a look at what gets shat onto your screen. And AbiWord doesn't even use it as the primary format.
There is literally no solution to this problem that has ever worked:
These things you keep talking about don't work in the real world.
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#65 Reply
Posted by
timb
on 05 Nov, 2013 14:37
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A/C Chargers: USB
Character Encoding: UTF-8
Instant Message: SMS
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#66 Reply
Posted by
c4757p
on 05 Nov, 2013 14:43
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USB is hardware, which is quite different. SMS is (or at least, was) tied to hardware. UTF-8 is an exception because of how absolutely essential a standard character set is; nobody is going to use a proprietary character set.
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#67 Reply
Posted by
timb
on 05 Nov, 2013 15:14
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I was responding to the three examples from the XKCD comic you posted. Everything with a battery basically uses USB to charge these days, SMS is the standard for instant messaging these days (which FaceBook and Twitter are intertwined with) and UTF-8 does in fact count because just 10 years ago character encoding was a mess! I remember when you couldn't even reliably read Spanish or French in Windows 98 (even early XP) without your screen filling up with blocks like you were being attacked by Tetris! (That's not even counting places behind the Iron Curtain that had hundreds of competing Cyrillic encodings.)
Then I could cite something like recent Web Standards explosion (HTML/CSS3/H.264/SVG/AJAX/JS) that's displaced Adobe's Flash and Microsoft's ActiveX behemoths in just a few short years.
If you don't think open standards for most things aren't the future, then *you're* dreaming.
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#68 Reply
Posted by
BravoV
on 05 Nov, 2013 15:37
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Just do NOT feed the troll.
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From what you've said, it doesn't seem at all like you pick the tools that will suit you the best, rather it seems like you've been using the most monopolistic tools for so long that you've actually forgotten what you need, or are just too set in your ways to bother trying anything new.
Yes it does ! MS word works perfectly fine for me. It does everything i want from it , i don't need to waste time learning another tool , and my editor is happy receiving the word document , doing edits , sending me back and i can go over and accept or reject any edit. MS Word neatly tracks all changes. I don't need a different tool . There may be tools out there that run circles around word but i don't need those. What i have works fine. Why can't you understand that ? There is nothing wrong with that!
It is the least amount of effort and path of least resistance. Using anything else will be a larger effort, not necessarily writing it , but getting it in a format that is compatible with what was asked in the first place.
If it's a new oscilloscope i'd happily spend time learning how to use it. If it's a text editor., i can't be bothered. i have no interest in finding out all its ins and outs. Editor wants MS word and Illustrator . I use those. No surprises afterwards. No risk of having to redo things because of file format problems. Their flow is Word + Illustrator + indesign. So we go.
In the end what matters is the content of the document, not how it was produced. The easiest path is perfect for me.
If a customer wants me to code a piece of C code and demands it is compiled by a MISRA compliant compiler i don't need to deliver something sent through GCC. It will fail incoming inspection and i'll have to redo it. So why waste the time in the first place ? That is how the world works.
I have ZERO interest in all the endless debates , politics and Stallmanesque utopia dreaming. Work needs to be done. I do the work , deliver what is asked in the format that is asked in what is for me the least painful way. Gimme my money and bugger off. I wanna go scubadiving , throw a something on the barbeque and watch the sunset sipping something in a long tall glass with a little umbrella in it and read the latest elektor magazine.
Like it or not : go in the industry and see what formats are asked for. Again you can argue till the cows come home that this is because of the monopolistic and bullying work of microsoft, and you will be right. There is no arguing about that. The fact still is : it is requested to deliver it in this format or prepare to redo it, or, for it to be rejected.
I have no interested going on a crusade like don quichote. Life is too short . My interests lie elsewhere.
You go crusade against monopolistic software makers, i'll go crusade against people explaining opamps wrong with virtual grounds and symmetric supplies. I can't fight every battle.
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If you don't think open standards for most things aren't the future, then *you're* dreaming.
Open standards are great. You make em , get em universally adopted and i'll use em.
Until a new universal standard comes along i will use the current one.
I have no interest in making them. I do hardware, you do software.
Easy enough to understand no ?
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#71 Reply
Posted by
timb
on 05 Nov, 2013 16:11
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We're like going around in circles here. The alternative formats are here already, but by not using them (and using Word instead) you contribute to the problem. You don't need to make anything, you just need to help make it the new standard by using it!
That's literally been my entire point all along.
I'm not trolling. You're not trolling. We're both obviously very passionate people who are both entrenched in our beliefs, so clearly we're not changing each other's minds here and thusly we must agree to disagree on the subject, like gentlemen. (And to everyone else bitching about a bit of good old fashioned heated debate, seriously, this is a forum. The whole point is debate. He made a somewhat controversial statement and people responded. If you don't like it, don't read the post. By harping on about it all you're doing is lower the SnR ratio of the thread yourself!)
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#72 Reply
Posted by
SeanB
on 05 Nov, 2013 16:23
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I will be willing to bet the one open source program you can use out of the box on windows, mac and Linux is VLC. I have found that there are very few video and audio file formats it will not be able to play. As well on a Windows machine you can have it play as the desktop background, and it works well. 1 file to download, one click to install and it just works. Can both stream and play back streams, and transcode on the fly between quite a few formats with ease.
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The alternative formats are here already, but by not using them (and using Word instead) you contribute to the problem. You don't need to make anything, you just need to help make it the new standard by using it!
It doesn't change anything ! My editor wants Ms Word. You convince THEM to adopt something else and i will follow.
I am NOT going to fight that battle.
Not in my interest. I know word , they want word : path of least resistance for me. Anything else is more work and learning curve for me.
is that really too hard to grasp ?
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#74 Reply
Posted by
marshallh
on 05 Nov, 2013 18:15
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Great interview.
Also enjoyed laughs from the butthurt open source crowd.
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#75 Reply
Posted by
ddavidebor
on 05 Nov, 2013 18:24
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Free_electron just ignore them.
They're the usual fan boy club of free computer.
You may or may not agree with them, they don't care and they will broke your balls at every moment possible.
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#76 Reply
Posted by
timb
on 05 Nov, 2013 18:59
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The alternative formats are here already, but by not using them (and using Word instead) you contribute to the problem. You don't need to make anything, you just need to help make it the new standard by using it!
It doesn't change anything ! My editor wants Ms Word. You convince THEM to adopt something else and i will follow.
I am NOT going to fight that battle.
Not in my interest. I know word , they want word : path of least resistance for me. Anything else is more work and learning curve for me.
is that really too hard to grasp ?
I bet if you asked they would take RTF and/or PDF. Hell, mine would take a plain text file hand formatted in Markdown Syntax if I told him that's the way I was going send the drafts from now on.
The path of least resistance for me is focusing on my writing, without letting the tools get in my way. My publisher has hundreds of people on staff that know how to lay out a book a lot better than I do (despite my background in graphics design).
From what you mentioned earlier, you take care of most of your own layout. Have you ever tried writing in a newer Word Processor designed for writing? Something like iA Writer, OmniWriter, Ulysses, Mellel or Scrivener? You could then do your layout in Word or something even better like InDesign.
Learning to use Scrivener has been a bit challenging for me as well, so I get where you're coming from. I am finding the payoff to be very nice as I get over that hump!
Edit: Just to make my position crystal clear, I'm not a FOSS advocate, I don't run Linux (as my day to day OS anyway) and the majority of the software I use is commercial. In fact, my issue wasn't even with his comments about Open Source and I never really held the position it was. Talk about getting butt hurt, hey Pot, this is the Kettle calling...
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i took a look at some of the programs you suggested:
Ia writer : quote" format your documents without taking your hands from the keyboard. Don’t click — write to format" This thing ain't wysiwyg. game over. i don't do command line crap. I used to do stuff like that in wordperfect. It's 2014 , 25 years later. The world has moved on.
Omniwriter. What the hell is with the changing backgrounds and keyboard clickety noises !
Ulysses. Wysiwyg ?
And for all of the above : Speelchekerr ? syntax checker ? Thesaurus ? Wysywig ? insertion of graphics ? page headers, footers, headings ?styles ? tables ? image subscripts ? , cross references ?
Scrivener seems like a convoluted way of working. everything is fragmented. corkboard, 500 toolpanels. brrr... not my style.
Mellel : Now we're talking ! this one deserves my full attention !
You see the end result as you are working on it. that is what i want.
I don't leave formatting of a page to the editor. if i scale an image and place it at a precise point i don't want them to muck about with it , moving to another page.
I frequently write sentences like : "Resistor R9 in the image above is used to set the gain of the opamp." if the pre-press guys then start moving the image all hell breaks loose. it suddenly no longer is the image above ....
i will not write "Resistor R9 in the figure 27 is used to set the gain of the opamp." . i know what will happen then. they will rearranges pages so that you have to flip a page forward and backward playing pingpong between figure and text. When writing i always have the document open in double page view, just like you will have the book in front of you. It is all carefully laid out so that you don't have to flip pages back and forward.
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#78 Reply
Posted by
AlfBaz
on 05 Nov, 2013 22:20
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It is all carefully laid out so that you don't have to flip pages back and forward.
There are 2 schools of thought on this and which camp you sit in depends on your posing preferences
When sitting somewhere in public, you can sit there holding the book in one hand, thoughtfully holding your chin... or you can hold the book in one hand holding a page tentatively as you turn the page back and forth you gracefully cock your head back and forth with a studious gaze. The latter, some say, projects a greater sense of intelligence.
Of course this is all moot if you are reading a tablet, in which case excessive page turning makes it appear you are playing Fruit Ninja
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#79 Reply
Posted by
hanndoddi
on 05 Nov, 2013 23:44
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Thx for a good show very fun to listen to
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#80 Reply
Posted by
timb
on 06 Nov, 2013 00:12
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i took a look at some of the programs you suggested:
Ia writer : quote" format your documents without taking your hands from the keyboard. Don’t click — write to format" This thing ain't wysiwyg. game over. i don't do command line crap. I used to do stuff like that in wordperfect. It's 2014 , 25 years later. The world has moved on.
Omniwriter. What the hell is with the changing backgrounds and keyboard clickety noises !
Ulysses. Wysiwyg ?
And for all of the above : Speelchekerr ? syntax checker ? Thesaurus ? Wysywig ? insertion of graphics ? page headers, footers, headings ?styles ? tables ? image subscripts ? , cross references ?
Scrivener seems like a convoluted way of working. everything is fragmented. corkboard, 500 toolpanels. brrr... not my style.
Mellel : Now we're talking ! this one deserves my full attention !
You see the end result as you are working on it. that is what i want.
I don't leave formatting of a page to the editor. if i scale an image and place it at a precise point i don't want them to muck about with it , moving to another page.
I frequently write sentences like : "Resistor R9 in the image above is used to set the gain of the opamp." if the pre-press guys then start moving the image all hell breaks loose. it suddenly no longer is the image above ....
i will not write "Resistor R9 in the figure 27 is used to set the gain of the opamp." . i know what will happen then. they will rearranges pages so that you have to flip a page forward and backward playing pingpong between figure and text. When writing i always have the document open in double page view, just like you will have the book in front of you. It is all carefully laid out so that you don't have to flip pages back and forward.
Scrivener takes some getting used to, but it's fully customizable. You can ignore the corkboard for your uses, it's basically a way to take your outline items and visualize them as notecards you can rearrange.
Here's a few of my favorite features:
This doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of how customizable it all is. You really need to dedicate an afternoon to watching some videos and reading the manual, just as you would with any other tool. Anyway, glad Mellel caught your eye!
As for formatting, you can tweak things all you want in your Word Processor but it's still going to look different after it goes to press, but I guess you're just trying to get as close as possible? How do you handle the various eBook formats that each render differently?
What I do is just add comments in the text: [
Make sure Fig. 15-3 is on on the same page as paragraph ^82. -T] Then my editor makes sure it's taken care of for on each subsequent format.
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#81 Reply
Posted by
senso
on 06 Nov, 2013 04:52
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Great stories, have to listen to it a few more times.
I think Vincent needs a friend, when he started talking, get out of the way, them man wants to talk!
If you have the time, another session or two would be very welcome.
Come on, stop with the OSS wars..
I also use windows and linux, the most recent crap that I'm putting with is that Chrome/Chromium don't play youtube videos, but firebox does that perfectly, on Ubuntu 12.04 with Gnome 3.something..
Or the Debian installer(1.2Gb or something around that), keept asking to connect to an WiFi network(and didn't pass after that, scrap debian of the ideas lol)....
Or that the last time I tried to use CMake with open CV in a codebase of around 500Mbytes of source it crapped out, everything compiled, openCv naahhh, let me throw errors like mad.
Or the freaking fact that it keeps me asking the keyring password even after allowing everybody to access it(only one account setup...).
I can keep the rest of the night writing about stupid things like this..
Yeah windows is bad, I had a 3 years windows 7 install that worked perfectly, decided to do a clean install so I know that the paid invoice(probably this is the wrong term) program would work with out a problem, and because Altium doesn't run in linux, nor does AvrStudio, or MPLab, or SolidWorks, or a lot of other crappy programs that I use everyday.
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#82 Reply
Posted by
NiHaoMike
on 06 Nov, 2013 16:13
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I just have Windows XP in a VirtualBox. It has been several years since I last used it, but it's there just in case. There's little reason to dual boot nowadays when there's free and good virtualization software. Main exception is if you're dealing with direct hardware access, but Xen can apparently support that as well.
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#83 Reply
Posted by
timb
on 06 Nov, 2013 16:46
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You'd think that Chrome/Chromium should be able to play YouTube videos just fine since, you know, Google owns both YouTube and Chrome! You'd be wrong...
Awhile back Google decided to drop all support for h.264 in favor of the "fully open" video codec they're trying to push, WebM. This is weird because they still include Flash, which *does* support h.264, so it's clearly just a political move on their part. Flash has some issues under non-Windows OSes but fortunately YouTube does support WebM, so you should be able to get videos to work by opting-in to the HTML5 Trial:
https://www.youtube.com/html5
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#84 Reply
Posted by
Zbig
on 06 Nov, 2013 17:21
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Does anyone know how to put a user on an "Ignore" list? I couldn't find it anywhere.
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#85 Reply
Posted by
timb
on 06 Nov, 2013 17:41
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Does anyone know how to put a user on an "Ignore" list? I couldn't find it anywhere.
Normally, if you click on a user's profile there's an option under "Add to Buddy List" for "Add to Ignore List" but it seems to be missing on this forum. Maybe it's best to just ignore their posts by not reading them?
@free_electron: You didn't talk a lot about your work on Hard Drives. Can you tell us if things are are starting to plateau in terms of technical advancements? What do you think the upper limits of magnetic drive capacity are? Is it all about read/write speed now and not so much about improved storage capacity?
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#86 Reply
Posted by
Zbig
on 06 Nov, 2013 17:56
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#87 Reply
Posted by
c4757p
on 06 Nov, 2013 18:01
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That must be good for our literally unlimited helium supply.
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i have to be very careful what i disclose about that.
Not a secret: there exists a 1.2 Terabyte single platter ! laptop (2.5 inch form factor) drive
Laptop drives can have 3 platters. Desktop platters are triple the surface size and can have 4 or 5 platters.
the end is nowhere near in sight.
now, add to this :That single platter 1.2 terabyte drive dates back to 2007 .... which is 7 years ago.
and that's all im gonna say about that.
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#89 Reply
Posted by
timb
on 06 Nov, 2013 18:09
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@free_electron: You didn't talk a lot about your work on Hard Drives. Can you tell us if things are are starting to plateau in terms of technical advancements? What do you think the upper limits of magnetic drive capacity are? Is it all about read/write speed now and not so much about improved storage capacity?
HGST has just unveiled world's first Helium-filled drives:
http://www.hgst.com/tech/techlib.nsf/techdocs/F8B3820BADAD9E6588257C160032F257/$file/HeliumProductSummary_final.pdf
Huh. That's really cool!
So as I understand it, you couldn't just vacuum seal a hard drive because the heads float on a tiny cushion of air across the surface of the platter, right? I've always wondered how exactly this worked, because the heads don't move (well, they do but any significant amount) so it can't have anything to do with Bernoulli's Law.
Sealing the drive with a less dense gas is pretty ingenious and I wonder why it hasn't been done up until now?
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#90 Reply
Posted by
Zbig
on 06 Nov, 2013 18:14
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Sealing the drive with a less dense gas is pretty ingenious and I wonder why it hasn't been done up until now?
I think at least one of the technical obstacles was the requirement for a drive to survive the ambient pressure changes. That's why almost (?) all current drives aren't really sealed - there's a breather filter.
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#91 Reply
Posted by
Zbig
on 06 Nov, 2013 18:21
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i have to be very careful what i disclose about that.
Not a secret: there exists a 1.2 Terabyte single platter ! laptop (2.5 inch form factor) drive
Laptop drives can have 3 platters. Desktop platters are triple the surface size and can have 4 or 5 platters.
the end is nowhere near in sight.
now, add to this :That single platter 1.2 terabyte drive dates back to 2007 .... which is 7 years ago.
and that's all im gonna say about that.
Hmm... I wonder, after they finally do release 2.5" drives greater than 1GB, whether Drobo will raise the price of their
Drobo Mini or lower the price of the
5D...
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#92 Reply
Posted by
rolycat
on 06 Nov, 2013 18:28
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Does anyone know how to put a user on an "Ignore" list? I couldn't find it anywhere.
It's fairly well hidden, but possible:
If you move your mouse cursor over the "Profile" category at the top and then click the "Forum Profile" subcategory, you'll be taken to a new page. In that page, if you move your cursor over the "Modify Profile" category, there's a subcategory called "Buddies/Ignore List"
Moving the mouse over "Buddies/Ignore List" reveals a further subcategory called "Edit Ignore List". Adding users to that list prevents them from sending you private messages and hides their forum posts.
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#93 Reply
Posted by
timb
on 06 Nov, 2013 19:08
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Sealing the drive with a less dense gas is pretty ingenious and I wonder why it hasn't been done up until now?
I think at least one of the technical obstacles was the requirement for a drive to survive the ambient pressure changes. That's why almost (?) all current drives aren't really sealed - there's a breather filter.
Yeah, that's actually the first thing I thought when I saw your link to the helium drive, "How does this handle the pressure differential from elevation and temperature changes?"
A quick Google search didn't yield immediate data on helium's thermal properties, but I didn't look very hard.
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#94 Reply
Posted by
timb
on 06 Nov, 2013 21:08
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i have to be very careful what i disclose about that.
Not a secret: there exists a 1.2 Terabyte single platter ! laptop (2.5 inch form factor) drive
Laptop drives can have 3 platters. Desktop platters are triple the surface size and can have 4 or 5 platters.
the end is nowhere near in sight.
now, add to this :That single platter 1.2 terabyte drive dates back to 2007 .... which is 7 years ago.
and that's all im gonna say about that.
I understand you can't reveal specifics and need to watch your words carefully.
What about reliability? It seems when I was still in IT a few years back that 1TB+ drives had the worst reliability of anything I've ever seen, especially some specific 1.5TB units when they first came out. Is this something inherent to having a high data density or were they just growing pains that have been since corrected?
I need some new drives for my DROBO and was thinking about stuffing it full of 2TB ones, but past reliability issues have me kind of gun shy.
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#95 Reply
Posted by
NiHaoMike
on 07 Nov, 2013 04:08
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If helium availability/cost becomes an issue, maybe they could use hydrogen? It's flammable but the computer industry has accepted highly flammable lithium batteries for 20 years or so.
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#96 Reply
Posted by
senso
on 07 Nov, 2013 06:35
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Problem is that hydrogen is very, very small it can even escape through the metal crystalline structure(causing hydrogen embrittlement), and even helium can escape, through a lot of seals, can't really see those drives living for 5 ou 6 years.
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When will you be back on free_electron? 3 hours is to short
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#98 Reply
Posted by
SeanB
on 07 Nov, 2013 19:53
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Problem is that hydrogen is very, very small it can even escape through the metal crystalline structure(causing hydrogen embrittlement), and even helium can escape, through a lot of seals, can't really see those drives living for 5 ou 6 years.
Considering that a Nitrogen/Helium mix is a standard leak test mixture for sealed hermetic refrigeration systems that can find a leak of under 1g per year you will find it hard to make a seal other than a welded one that will contain Helium for long periods.
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#99 Reply
Posted by
creyc
on 08 Nov, 2013 03:38
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I just want to reiterate what many have already said. This episode was amazing and despite the extended runtime, probably my favorite AmpHour episode to date. And now, Forrest Mims?? You guys are setting the bar too high my friends!
Your efforts are much appreciated!
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Problem is that hydrogen is very, very small it can even escape through the metal crystalline structure
Really? That's amazing! So a hydrogen atom and wiggle it's little ass between the metal molecules? Makes me wonder how the Hindenburg ever crosses the Atlantic.
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#101 Reply
Posted by
ddavidebor
on 08 Nov, 2013 13:27
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With periodical refill of hydrgen
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...probably my favorite AmpHour episode to date. And now, Forrest Mims??
Thanks for the heads-up! Forrest Mims was a key element in what got me started in electronics. I have emailed him a few times over the years begging him to write another electronics book. He seems to have lost all interest in electronics and focuses solely on astronomy and earth based sciences now. It's kind of sad to think how many treasures he could have created in the past couple decades if he wouldn't have lost his passion for electronics.
I still have all my Forrest Mims books I got when I was around 13 years old, back in the mid-80's!! Radio Shack is capitalizing on the maker moverment and resurgance in the electronics hobby (mainly credited to Arduino) by restocking his books. In all these years nobody has created anything better. As much as I have dreamed of a new book by him, in reality it would probably suck if he no longer is interested in the subject. I'm very interested to see what he has to say about his current feeling about electronics in next weeks interview. I'm going to set something up to text me as soon as it's published!
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#103 Reply
Posted by
notsob
on 09 Nov, 2013 02:26
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back in the days, I was involved in the service side of ISDN, installs, fault diagnostics etc. Due to the cost of the equipment and the telco pricing and billing policies, we referred to it as
[ ISDN] - I Smell Dollars Now
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#104 Reply
Posted by
SeanB
on 09 Nov, 2013 13:25
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With periodical refill of hydrgen
Petrol engines that drove the propellors also drove a generator that had as one use driving an electrolytic water distillation system that used the condensed exhaust water ( condensed and stored as it was about equal to the fuel burned in mass so you did not need to dump valuable lift gas during a voyage) to generate oxygen ( burned in the engine as a safety measure) and the hydrogen was used as a make up gas for the bags.
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#105 Reply
Posted by
madires
on 09 Nov, 2013 14:12
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back in the days, I was involved in the service side of ISDN, installs, fault diagnostics etc. Due to the cost of the equipment and the telco pricing and billing policies, we referred to it as
[ ISDN] - I Smell Dollars Now
AFAIR ISDN in the US is/was also quite expensive. Over here ISDN is so common place that there's nearly no price difference. An ISDN BRI (2 channels) is just 4 Euros more than a POTS line. But it will be gone soon, obsoleted by VoIP.
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The germans have another name for ISDN : Ist sowass Denn notwendig ? translation : Do we really need this ?
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#107 Reply
Posted by
jahonen
on 09 Nov, 2013 17:46
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The germans have another name for ISDN : Ist sowass Denn notwendig ? translation : Do we really need this ?
I have heard "It Still Does Nothing" and "I Still Don't Need"-versions.
Regards,
Janne
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#108 Reply
Posted by
JoannaK
on 10 Nov, 2013 00:59
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Hello free_electron
I just listened the 3 hour show and enjoy a lot of that stuff. Really great stuff.
I'd like to point out that there indeed has been an Pic chip clone. It was closely resembling the old 16F84 but had a fast mode (1 instruction/clock with slower jumps) and a lot faster clock speeds so it was not a simple rebranding. Original company that made it was Scenix (laterly known as Ubicom or something) and last of those chips are nowdays available (have been EOL:ed some time ago) from Parallax Inc. Parallax used those in some of their Basic-stamp products.
(
http://www.parallax.com/catalog/microcontrollers/sx )
And for 6502 code.. there are still people who do Demos for Commodore VIC-20 and C-64 computers. Not to mention things like CastAR form Technical Illusions (well, it's from Jeri, so of course it has 6502)
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#109 Reply
Posted by
timb
on 10 Nov, 2013 04:00
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back in the days, I was involved in the service side of ISDN, installs, fault diagnostics etc. Due to the cost of the equipment and the telco pricing and billing policies, we referred to it as
[ ISDN] - I Smell Dollars Now
In 2000 we still had dialup with no sign of DSL coming anytime soon (small town with GTE as our phone company). I found out I could get a physical ISDN line fairly cheap ($60/mo vs $40 for a POTS line), but outbound usage was billed at least $0.25/min! I started interning with a guy who ran a small local ISP in a nearby city and we figured out it was possible to set his equipment up for something called ISDN Dial-Back.
Basically, my ISDN modem would call his and upon answer hangup immediately; his equipment would dial me back, my modem would answer and then go through the normal authentication procedures. This was great because I wasn't charged anything for inbound calls, only out!
That little ISDN line was blazing fast and the night I got it installed I was up until 6AM playing Quake 3. (18ms ping compared to the 240ms ping I was getting on dialup.) I always loved the fact I could use the phone at the same time as well (albeit dropping to a single 64k B channel for data during).
I really loved that ISDN line and it served me well for over 3 years. :3
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#110 Reply
Posted by
madires
on 10 Nov, 2013 14:20
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In 2000 we still had dialup with no sign of DSL coming anytime soon (small town with GTE as our phone company). I found out I could get a physical ISDN line fairly cheap ($60/mo vs $40 for a POTS line), but outbound usage was billed at least $0.25/min! I started interning with a guy who ran a small local ISP in a nearby city and we figured out it was possible to set his equipment up for something called ISDN Dial-Back.
That was set up in the RADIUS user profile, standard feature for RAS back then :-) At the beginning of ISDN Deutsche Telekom had a nice feature turned on for the signaling channel. It allowed to send short messages, similiar to SMS, to another one with an ISDN line free of charge. After the first commercial devices took advantage of that hidden treasure for establishing very low speed data communications Telekom made it a paid service and disabled it some time later.
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#111 Reply
Posted by
SeanB
on 10 Nov, 2013 15:01
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Our first internet connection was on ISDN, with a dedicated TA inside the building rented from the Post Office (later Telkom) and a plug in ISA card in one PC that was used as a gateway. We only used one channel, the other had a fax connected to it, as that gave very good connection speeds. Later on when we went to a Diginet link the fax number went back to copper pair using the same line and regular POTS. Was fun for the techs coming into the building to find a 250VDC pair unmarked in the frame, a few got belted by it if not warned, and it took out a few of the test sets as well ( seems they do not like 250VDC fed in to the internals, they glow bright red internally then the set stops working and eventually the smoke comes out of the well sealed case) of the careless.
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#112 Reply
Posted by
BeanerSA
on 12 Dec, 2013 03:01
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I've just realised I can't read Vincent's posts without using his voice in my head. Like a Morgan Freeman!!
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#113 Reply
Posted by
tautech
on 13 May, 2019 09:47
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Years behind I know however is there a chance of a follow up interview on Vincent's escapades since 2013 and his current employment with Tesla ?
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#114 Reply
Posted by
BravoV
on 13 May, 2019 09:55
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Years behind I know however is there a chance of a follow up interview on Vincent's escapades since 2013 and his current employment with Tesla ?
+1
And also a contest of winning the popular Tesla 21700 cell maybe ?
.... j/k ...
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#115 Reply
Posted by
thinkfat
on 02 Jun, 2019 12:03
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Wow. This post popping up here actually made me search back in the episode archive to find it. I had a blast listening!