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What Paper should I use for making PCBs using the Toner Transfer method?
Posted by nshin31302 on 06 Apr, 2015 19:26 -
The web has many tutorials on making PCBs, so I decided to try making some for my projects. However I failed. I've tried using Staples Photo Paper and Magazine paper with a Phillips clothing iron and a Brother HL-3170CDW Laser Printer. But when I tried transferring the toner to the PCB with the photo paper, the plastic coating on the glossy side (the toner side) of the photo paper melted, making a gooey mess on my PCB. Then I tried using magazine paper, but some traces were shorted together, and most of the holes were missing. What paper should I use for making PCBs and what am I doing wrong? Please provide the links for the products.
Edit:
I found out what I was doing wrong. Recently I read that brother printers use toner that doesn't thermally transfer very well.
So I went to my local library and used their printer (20 Cents for a page) to print on magazine paper. Then I etched it and all.
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Everyone seems to have different experiences with toner transfer. I get good results from magazine paper.
Have you tried ordinary laser printer paper? -
I tried magazine print and various other papers from the office supply store, but none were satisfactory. What worked best for me was the yellow "toner transfer paper" you can get from numerous sellers on ebay. One side has a plastic coating so the toner comes of very easily. I also use an HP laser printer with genuine HP toner--the third party toner had much lower density. A laminating machine is also a big improvement over an iron.
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There is yellow starch paper on ebay that's very cheap and works absolutely great, this paper doesn't stick to the pcb, only the toner does. Then maybe you need to tell us exactly what your expectations and results are. The outcome will never be perfect with this method. People always spend time correcting the traces where the toner didn't stick. It will never be 100% repeatable. The more you will perfect this method, the more you will realize that it's fundamentally bullshit and that it only has a lot hype because of the new hacker/maker trend.
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Somewhere I found a mention of the waxy paper stickers come on. I tried it and it works better than the various magazine papers I tested.
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I've been using cheap Kodak photo paper for laser printers. Seems to work fine.
Ozwolf -
I use the junk mail - Already printed glossy paper.
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Hello!
For me A4 sticky paper worked best and cheapest, remove sticker and print on the non sticky smooth side.
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For me A4 sticky paper worked best and cheapest, remove sticker and print on the non sticky smooth side.
Did for me too, until I was disapointed with bad copper pour etch results from a 600 dpi laser and went to a 1200 dpi laser.
The transfer process ended up a smudged mess.
The remedy (for me) was a smooth semi gloss paper that helped "fix" the toner while transfering using a laminator.
The downside was the need to soak off the paper when the label backing paper was a nice peel off after laminating and cooling.
Other brand names for tranfer paper: Press n Peel.The web has many tutorials on making PCBs, so I decided to try making some for my projects. However I failed.
What paper should I use for making PCBs and what am I doing wrong? Please provide the links for the products.
See this recent thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/pcb-at-home-guide/msg612569/#msg612569 -
What about clear "overhead film", I've used that before and worked OK, had to go back and touch it up by hand..
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I used thin glossy magazine paper. Worked very well several times!
Cut out a mainly white (could be printed on)part of the page of the magazine
Stick it to the A4 page on top edge using normal sellotape
Print on the glossy paper, then remove the glossy paper from the A4 sheet
Clean your PCB with fine steel wool and alcohol (has to be absolutely spotless!)
Laminate with PCB (now this is the tricky part, make sure your laminator is hot enough, but not too hot
) and run it through it several times (at various places of the laminator to harvest the heat from the entire roller).
let it cool down
Stick the PCB with paper into a bowl with lukewarm water and let soak for 10-30 minutes.
If you've done everything correctly, you will now be able to remove (slowly) the paper. there will be leftover bits of paper and fibre stuck to the board.
Now brush the PCB with an old tooth brush to remove all the remaining paper and fibre. If your toner stuck correctly, this will not strip it down, just be gentle
Dry the board, fix any broken traces (I only had to do this once)
Etch
This board was made using this method and came out pretty well. Only had to touch up the top right trace as I was impatient when pealing the paper and pealed the trace too. I have also done some boards with BGA package with this method. If you do it right and have the right printer, you'll be fine!
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Nobody has mentioned this stuff.
http://www.pcbfx.com/main_site/pages/products/transfer_paper.html
I use it and love it. Easy to get consistent results and I've done 6/6mil a couple of times using a Laserjet 2200. I usually aim for 10/10, but will neck down to 8 or 6 to get out of a tight spot.
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There is yellow starch paper on ebay that's very cheap and works absolutely great, this paper doesn't stick to the pcb, only the toner does. Then maybe you need to tell us exactly what your expectations and results are. The outcome will never be perfect with this method. People always spend time correcting the traces where the toner didn't stick. It will never be 100% repeatable. The more you will perfect this method, the more you will realize that it's fundamentally bullshit and that it only has a lot hype because of the new hacker/maker trend.
Huh, I am using this method for almost 15 years and I've got much better results than from ANYTHING else, even photo process...
2dm^2 Double-sided boards with QFPs are not problem. However it all depends on stuff that has to be perfected over time (like the right paper, I use one branch of magazine or special foil), toner (I have best results with one certain brand) and your iron adjustment and technique... I wouldn't say it's fundamentally bullshit, not at all, my friend even uses this in his manufacture for all proto-boards... -
If you're doing this to learn how to etch or because you like to do everything yourself; fine.
It has been my experience that using a board house is a cheaper AND better option. Most of them offer free layout software. You design, upload, pay, and a week later very professional boards come in the mail. You can put down graphics in the mask and other fine detail that you would never do in a kitchen etch job.
Plus, your future projects will churn faster and faster as you learn to plunk down a design with a layout tool.
I know I'm not a lot of help on your posted question, but I'm trying to aid your overall development. Good luck with your projects.
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If you're doing this to learn how to etch or because you like to do everything yourself; fine.
It has been my experience that using a board house is a cheaper AND better option. Most of them offer free layout software. You design, upload, pay, and a week later very professional boards come in the mail. You can put down graphics in the mask and other fine detail that you would never do in a kitchen etch job.
Plus, your future projects will churn faster and faster as you learn to plunk down a design with a layout tool.
I know I'm not a lot of help on your posted question, but I'm trying to aid your overall development. Good luck with your projects.
That's usually my rant!
The best paper is whatever you printed your Itead checkout receipt on
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I personally have had good luck with Pulsar's Toner Transfer Paper. It is sugar coated (really, some kind of sucrose), you iron or laminate it on and then soak in water. Paper comes off clean (with no scrubbing) while toner stays stuck to copper. You can get it from digikey.
Pulsar's web site is... http://www.pulsarprofx.com/pcbfx/main_site/pages/products/transfer_paper.html -
Quote
yellow starch paper
Thats a new one on me, but interested in giving it a try, if it gives more consistent results.
On Ebay UK I can only find 'Edible Rice Paper' is that one and the same ?
thanks -
Quote
yellow starch paper
Thats a new one on me, but interested in giving it a try, if it gives more consistent results.
On Ebay UK I can only find 'Edible Rice Paper' is that one and the same ?
thanks
It's something like this : http://www.ebay.com/itm/50pcs-A4-Heat-Toner-Transfer-Thermal-Paper-For-Iron-PCB-Board-Circuit-Prototype-/161306055187?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item258e971213
It looks like the one I have, I can't however guarantee that it will be exactly the same, who knows how many Chinese factories produce this and how often they change their ingredients.Huh, I am using this method for almost 15 years and I've got much better results than from ANYTHING else, even photo process...
2dm^2 Double-sided boards with QFPs are not problem. However it all depends on stuff that has to be perfected over time (like the right paper, I use one branch of magazine or special foil), toner (I have best results with one certain brand) and your iron adjustment and technique... I wouldn't say it's fundamentally bullshit, not at all, my friend even uses this in his manufacture for all proto-boards...
I'm not arguing that fine pitched boards can be made with this method, I managed to get reasonable quality 8 mil tracks too when I was doing toner transfer.
What I don't like about toner transfer is that it's not reproducible. It's basically craftsmanship. It's all about scrubbing the copper with the right kind of green sponge, for the right amount of time and your tongue at the right angle. Then it works with glossy paper from this month magazine, but not the next month. Some brands of printers work while others don't. That is why you have thousands of tutorials, people spend huge amounts of time trying to find exactly what works for them and often they do. And even with your personal perfect method there is not that much control. One day the humidity in your room is higher, or your printer started heating the toner with 5°C more and you have to start the experimentation all over again.
On the other hand, the photo method is a real industrial process. You can order a set of tools and chemicals from a vendor like Farnell for less than 100 dollars and having perfectly nice boards the next day. -
I personally have had good luck with Pulsar's Toner Transfer Paper. You can get it from digikey.
Only if you're in the USA. For some reason they wont export it, so it doesn't show up on digikey.co.nz etc. -
@Grapsus - thanx for the link !
I have used some cheap photo paper (make is 'amps') which works up to a point but leaves a residue which has to be painstakingly removed
another problem I have found is that some printers (my cheap HP laserjet !) doesn't print to exact scale, mine is out by about 1% on one of the axis.
It's fine for quick'n'dirty boards but anything more and then it's easier to go the manufactured route -
I use HP brochure paper. Just today, I need to make 7 tiny boards (mostly surface mount) - and while I was at it, I made 20 more. Took less then 2 hours from printing to 27 boards in my hand. My cost was well under $3-4.
As someone mentioned, it is a black art, and you can watch all the youtube videos you want, but you'll have to tweak the method that works for you.QuoteIt's basically craftsmanship. It's all about scrubbing the copper with the right kind of green sponge, for the right amount of time and your tongue at the right angle.
Skip the 3m green pad, and step up to 320 grit wet/dry sand paper. And sand in two directions ~90 degrees apart from each other. That's a old painters trick for prepping a car for paint. It allows a grid of ridges to be made in the copper, and really lets the toner grab onto the copper for dear life. Most common mistakes I see are people not getting the toner hot enough (using a laminator) or not prepping the boards correctly. They need to be prepped, and cleaned. After sanding, I clean with acetone twice. Then give it a once over with a cheese cloth tack rag (another thing you would do when painting a car). Another problem is not using aggressive etching. If you're etching for more then 3-4 mins. You're going to have a bad time.
It's all about giving the toner something to grab onto - a clean, clean, clean surface (both the copper clad, and the paper) and heat and pressure. Too much pressure and you'll smear the toner. Too little and it won't get enough contact with the copper clad.
The pulsar FX guy selling the "PCB-fab-in-a-box" is interesting. But, he just adds one step. And that's adding a foil to the toner that is on the copper clad. It's a run-of-the-mill heat foil (use by crafters - that is people that do crafts as a hobby) that will stick to the toner, and not the copper. It's an extra step - and not really needed IMHO if you have a strong etching solution. He's super secretive about his product - as I found out when I emailed asking about what exactly is in the kit. The foil only really helps with pitting. Pitting occurs because toner isn't a closed cell plastic. It will have microscopic holes in it. (think swiss cheese)
I've been playing around with something easier then foil, and been having good success with. Something you already have in you medicine cabinet. O0 I want to do a side by side compairson before I put it up on my blog (see below)
/end rant.
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I can't really agree at all on this one... I had really bad experience(s) from photo method.Huh, I am using this method for almost 15 years and I've got much better results than from ANYTHING else, even photo process...
2dm^2 Double-sided boards with QFPs are not problem. However it all depends on stuff that has to be perfected over time (like the right paper, I use one branch of magazine or special foil), toner (I have best results with one certain brand) and your iron adjustment and technique... I wouldn't say it's fundamentally bullshit, not at all, my friend even uses this in his manufacture for all proto-boards...
I'm not arguing that fine pitched boards can be made with this method, I managed to get reasonable quality 8 mil tracks too when I was doing toner transfer.
What I don't like about toner transfer is that it's not reproducible. It's basically craftsmanship. It's all about scrubbing the copper with the right kind of green sponge, for the right amount of time and your tongue at the right angle. Then it works with glossy paper from this month magazine, but not the next month. Some brands of printers work while others don't. That is why you have thousands of tutorials, people spend huge amounts of time trying to find exactly what works for them and often they do. And even with your personal perfect method there is not that much control. One day the humidity in your room is higher, or your printer started heating the toner with 5°C more and you have to start the experimentation all over again.
On the other hand, the photo method is a real industrial process. You can order a set of tools and chemicals from a vendor like Farnell for less than 100 dollars and having perfectly nice boards the next day.
It's kind of funny, because home made photo process is exactly the same (IMHO even worse) as you're describing. You have to use right kind of green sponge, scrub it for exact time, then spray that board with hopefully even layer of photo-resist (while having the tongue at right angle), somehow produce the template that has to be black enough where the traces should be, but see-trough otherwise. Hit it with the special expensive light bulb for exactly right amount of time (and care that you're not exposed to the light as you'll get burned). Then use either expensive and unavailable stuff or sodium hydroxide at special temperature (which will probably fck everything up) to develop the board. And since some resists are not really that visible, you can just put it in the etching solution and hope for the best...
Ofc, you can get boards with photo-resist already on. The problem is, that they are expensive and if you get them from bad supplier (or from a good supplier on a bad day as once happened to me), they can have uneven or old layer. Another thing is, that once you cut the board (in a dark room), It's gonna be harder to store leftovers (not that you should really store them anyway)... And when you change supplier, you will probably have to change the illumination time / temp. of developing solution, etc.
On the other hand, stuff I am using now is nothing like you've described. I just cut the right dimensions from one of the A3 sheets of either single or double sided boards I've got, scrub it gently with sanding paper, print the layout on one of the pages of the right stuff that I have tons of and then use old granny's iron that was grind down to perfectly flat surface and that is set to the right temperature for about 1 minute. I can add/repair traces because everything is perfectly visible (usually don't need to).
All done in about 5 minutes, anytime and practically every time with a same result... No chemicals that are hard to recycle, no "green sponge" or tongue at right place necessary... -
I should have mentioned that I use pre-sensitized boards and the revealing chemical that goes with them. It costs around 4 euros for eurocard sized pcbs. The boards are covered with vinyl so they can be cut in day light and the unused parts can keep their protection.
The only thing that needs calibration is exposure time, but the light source is not that important as long as it is spatially even.
I totally agree that if you take the challenge of sensitizing the boards yourself, it becomes the same craftsmanship as toner transfer with a lot of variables and tricks. -
I should have mentioned that I use pre-sensitized boards and the revealing chemical that goes with them. It costs around 4 euros for eurocard sized pcbs. The boards are covered with vinyl so they can be cut in day light and the unused parts can keep their protection.
OK, that makes sense... Well when I experimented with photo process, I was using resist in spray and it was really pain in the a... I was young (about 10yo) and even got burned by the UV light. I tried boards with resist, but brand which I was using made them in A4 format covered in black plastic foil. It wasn't stuck to the surface, you had to cut them in dark room and resist would degrade with time.
The only thing that needs calibration is exposure time, but the light source is not that important as long as it is spatially even.
I totally agree that if you take the challenge of sensitizing the boards yourself, it becomes the same craftsmanship as toner transfer with a lot of variables and tricks.
Anyway, it really doesn't matter what method you use, you can get repeatable process even from toner transfer. -
I have had good results with a couple of types of photo paper, although it is of no value to mention them here as they are no longer available. Don't know exactly where I will go when my stock runs out. It appears that this paper is similar to magazine paper in having a clay finish, not the plastic material that is often found on photo paper. 5 mil lines and spaces with no touch ups required on boards of several square inch size happen regularly. It took several tries before I found the recipe that worked for me.
ALL pcb manufacturing processes are process sensitive. The commercial houses spend a lot of time and effort tweaking their processes and keeping them under control. This is hard enough if you are making boards every day, and every so often one of the commercial guys loses the bubble and starts making schlock for a while.
If you have the right personality, you can document (or remember) the details of the process you used for making your boards and do it in a repeatable way. Until the vendor of one of your products changes their recipe and you have to modify your process. This applies to photo processes (both positive and negative) and to toner transfer processes.
I still make many of my own boards (maybe it's an ego thing), but the prices of commercial boards are so low, and the appeal of solder mask, silk screen, drilled and plated holes, plated vias and all of the other things that are easy to get commercially makes that a good way to go most of the time.