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And maybe some of you are right that it's better to go in the direction of business rather than an employee so let's talk about that, who did it, examples, etc ..
How much money do you have saved? If you try to start your own business, you will have to expect to have no income for a long time. I left my employer of 24 years. Thankfully, I had saved enough money to give me a healthy cushion. I had no significant income for a year and invested at least $30K on equipment to develop a new analytical instrument, $7K (to-date) for patenting, $2K for insurance, $5K for trade shows and presenting at conferences. I went from decent compensation package to zero overnight. My wife still works but earns a lot less than I did. We have no debts. Income opportunities don't just come along - it's taken a lot of my time. Even with my credentials in my industry, it's been a hard road and continues to be so. If you want to do the business route, identify a market that is poorly supported, develop a plan and then execute that plan. I don't know about other countries but in the US there is a group of typically retired CEOs, CTOs, entrepreneurs etc called the SCORE Association (supported by the federal government's small business administration). You may want to consider it given you plan to relocate to the US. You need to understand that 50% of businesses fail in the first year and 90-95% fail in the first 5 years (here).
If you don't have the funds to fully support your own venture then you'll need to secure loans. Lenders will want to see that you have the necessarily skills and that will involve proven technical track record of commercial relevance.
It can and will be stressful on you and your marriage. You can pretty much say goodbye to free time, casual spending etc for an unknown period of time. Contrast this with the predictable duration of starting a second undergraduate course. Compare the cost of student loans with the cost of starting a venture that carries a high likely of failure.
There's no simple answer and no easy way. -
There's no
simpleanswer and noeasyway.
There. Fixed that for you
The simple answer is that to get a job, you need to get through interviews and get hired. To do that you need to have an answer for why you didn't finish university. If your answer is, "I didn't like the university way of studying, so I left because I felt I could study better on my own" then you will become a no hire. That answer won't cut it with hiring managers. If you don't like university way of studying, you won't like the business way of doing work. (How do I know you didn't just cherry pick the topics you liked and avoided the ones you didn't like?)
To succeed in business, should you try to go that way, you need to have some work experience in the field. Just look at all the failed people who tried to run a restaurant with no prior knowledge of the restaurant business.
Also to succeed in business, you can't have an attitude like the one you are displaying here towards people with advice you don't like. If you have any kind of attitude like that towards customers you won't have any customers and your business will fail. (Again, the restaurant analogy: chefs who say their food is fine and the complaining customers just have poor taste don't have many customers.)
So really the most important thing you have to do is to fix your attitude to life, the world and to people around you. Otherwise you will be unemployed or doing minimum wage jobs for the rest of your life. -
Again this just my own observation/projection of correlations, but I will repeat myself: "the hard way".
Normally I would advise people to start their own business/freelance if they are self taught. This way you could avoid the formal qualifications part. But you do need to have like a portfolio of finished and polished projects to show off to clients that you're capable of the job. But also IMO it's also bad advice, as this should have been your own idea. You cannot just tell someone else that he should be his own boss - everyone should already do that to their own career. I can imagine you're not completely comfortable with this idea since you also need to support a family.
What web development did bring me, is the first few steps into programming when I was really young, and eventually switched over to software, embedded and electrical engineering. In terms of hands-on experience, I think I learned the most from my own projects. So I would certainly recommended having lots of those, and see where that can bring you.
first thank you for your input , appreciated.
I understand I'm going to do it in the hard way , I have no problem with that , because the hard way in general is less hard for me than finishing the degree IN MY CASE.
Also of course I was thinking of building a portfolio of projects to show since I would not have "qualifications" except half a degree and accredited courses that I would take mostly online and the idea of stating business/freelance came to my mind but I would like to hear from you or others about that part more in detail and what kind of businesses are open and reasonable to get into or what freelancing areas, etc ..
me focusing on web development for a coming job is mostly driven by practical financial reasons that I can't avoid, but I want to keep my hobby in electronics, I'm interested how you switched from web development to software and embedded because this is an interesting field for me.
For me it happened naturally. The first steps were small and simple, but I was only like 11 to 12 at the time so I was full of joy when I figured out what an if statement and for loop would do. I proceeded to use PHP5 for like 4 to 5 years and build more advanced stuff , up to whole forums software with BB code parsers, template engines, administration backends, etc. To me it came naturally since I was involved in the local Dutch webmaster communities (much like a board such as this).
However at some point I was a bit fed up by the community, and stopped building/contributing to these webmaster communities. I was mostly a backend developer anyway. The software I would write for my own purposes ("intranet sites") could also be made as desktop applications. I started writing C# and Python programs instead. At first this was a bit of a learning curve, because "scripting" and "programming" are mentally very similar exercises, but programming requires more knowledge and experience to do it well.
Actually at the age of 16 I was already decided that I should get into EE instead. I skipped CS because it's either full of people that want to build sites (which can be done self-taught - PHP is not hard), people that study CS to "get into IT" (should have chosen the business CS variant..) or are very skilled programmers that are very skilled because they are self taught.
At the time however I didn't tinker with EE at home, which perhaps mean I was behind, but given enough dedication I caught up and at some point I saw the courses mostly as busy work and focused on my own projects which were a combination of the two. Now I'm fully between both fields, focusing on digital and/or mixed-signal systems given both my EE and "self taught" CS background.
You could say that perhaps by accident I got out of the webdev domain. A friend from the webdev communities actually stuck to website backends, but has since dropped PHP and is now doing some very abstract functional programming style for some very big clients. On paper he also has no degrees to be a programmer neither, but worked himself up among the ranks.
I think it shows that a non-linear path can also work, given that you work hard at what you want to accomplish. -
OK Louai, it seams that you are very determined and don't want to reconsider your decision of dropping the school, against the overwhelming number of advises that tells you a diploma will be a great advantage. Let's get on topic and see what's to do next.
1. You won't like this, but you DEFINITELY need to drop the attitude that a diploma (and school in general) is shitty. School, in general (statistically speaking) is better than self education. There are exceptions, of course, but usually a diploma tells a lot. If you don't agree with that, no problem, but just keep in mind that despising a diploma is offensive for those who already have one. You don't want to go at a hiring interview with a despising attitude. That will instantly disqualify you, no matter how good you are. Confident, yes, despising to others (even if you feel qualified to despise them), definitely no.
2. Build yourself a portfolio of projects. Create a personal website, or at least a blog where to post your projects and nicely document those projects. In the eyes of your future employer, this will weight as much (if not more) as a diploma. Keep in mind that you are not competing with idiots with a diploma, but with other people that are at least as passionate as you are about electronics (except they have both the passion and the diploma). So, your projects must be outstanding and impressive. I won't advice for a video blog (or a youtube channel) because quality video production is incredibly time consuming.
3. Apply to jobs, then go to the interviews even if the job description is not exactly your dream job. At worst, you will gain experience at passing interviews. You can always refuse the job later if you really don't like it.
4. Be prepared to take some shitty jobs in between, totally unrelated with electronics or programming.
5. An alternative path is to open your own business. This is totally different than engineering in general, different from either SE or EE. You will need a totally different set of skills, like charisma, risk management, being a good leader, and most of all you will need STRONG CONNECTIONS, relations and friends, and first of all, A LOT OF LUCK.
6. Having a successful business is very hard work, and most of the time you won't succeed without an incredibly amount of LUCK and CONNECTIONS. You may want to research for yourself some statistics about how many businesses fail compared with how many manage to just float. Don't even talk about legends like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs! The probability of winning the lottery or being hit by a lighting strike is much bigger than the probability of having a similar success as they did.
7. I wouldn't advise for independent self employment or freelancer. This might help you to pay some bill, but use that only as a safety net. Usually this kind of work is not sustainable in the long run.
So, go out there, be prepared to confront with people that have the same passion and dedication as you have, and hope for the best luck.
Keep a positive attitude at all time, but be realistic, and never, never ever display superiority against "empty diplomas", or against any other people in general, no matter how good you feel you are, or how good you _really_ are when compared with others.
I wish you all the best!
First thank you that was really helpful input.
Regarding the first point you mentioned that I need to drop the attitude that a diploma (and school in general) is shitty, I don't see I need to drop my attitude towards it, I'm being honest with myself and you, this is how I think about it based on lots of thinking and experimenting with it. And I didn't mean to insult people who have the degree when it means something valuable to them, I'm saying this is my opinion about it as many others did also under this post, every one is entitled to his opinion as you said. I don't agree that statistically people with degrees do better than the self educated people, for different reasons but pay attention also that this comparison is not given an equal opportunity for these two categories, because the biased system favors degrees and gives more opportunities for degreed people, and many of those who are good graduate EEs at their work are good DESPITE finishing their degree and not as a result of it.
I say shitty when I'm complaining about this biased system not as a despise to the people who finished their degree, I could have finished it my self and be one of those.
I don't have to have good attitude to everything in the world, actually how can you? when you know that there are lots of nonsense going around in society, politics, corruption, crimes, discrimination , etc. and the same with Education and Jobs, there are shitty things about life. period .
Now the topic if I should mention that in a job interview is wise or not is another discussion, most people hide and polish stuff in their interviews so they can do it also here. but if the person that is employing me is like me then I probably have better chance expressing my real view.
for example if I go for an interview in pay-pal and Peter Thiel is making the interview I probably would have no problem mentioning my view about college because I know it matches his view too. -
The only thing I can say is, try to find that gets you motivated!
If that really is what feels right and what you want, just go for it.
But also, do it for the right reasons.
So if that's not following a study at the university, than just go for it that different path.
But also be aware of the consequences.
Hell, maybe you deiced to even do something totally different than an engineering job.
As long as it makes you happy. -
I don't see I need to drop my attitude towards it, I'm being honest with myself and you,
But you really must know when to keep it to yourself vs. when it's acceptable to let it all out.
Just a note about interviews. Many companies use targeted selection. This is completely different than the traditional interview process. It consists of multiple interviews with multiple people (usually 1:1). You will be asked a series of questions each set of which are designed to probe different aspects about your technical skills, interpersonal skills, behaviors etc. One of the most important things about these is to answer them in STAR format (situation, task, action, result). Basically, "I identified this problem, I realized I had to xyz by the end of whenever, so I did these tasks and the result was." The R is critical (and used to be my weak point) - it's the "so what?" part of the answer.
If you can, find out about a given employer's interview process. If they use the STAR format, see if there is anyone who could give you an idea of what to expect. Answering STAR questions is not as simple as it may seem and each interviewer will be looking for very specific keywords/actions in your answers. Each answer should not only contain technical content but also behavioral. These kinds of employers not only want to know what you did but how you did it. -
I can already tell that these are not the companies he would like to work forI don't see I need to drop my attitude towards it, I'm being honest with myself and you,
But you really must know when to keep it to yourself vs. when it's acceptable to let it all out.
Just a note about interviews. Many companies use targeted selection. This is completely different than the traditional interview process. It consists of multiple interviews with multiple people (usually 1:1). You will be asked a series of questions each set of which are designed to probe different aspects about your technical skills, interpersonal skills, behaviors etc. One of the most important things about these is to answer them in STAR format (situation, task, action, result). Basically, "I identified this problem, I realized I had to xyz by the end of whenever, so I did these tasks and the result was." The R is critical (and used to be my weak point) - it's the "so what?" part of the answer.
If you can, find out about a given employer's interview process. If they use the STAR format, see if there is anyone who could give you an idea of what to expect. Answering STAR questions is not as simple as it may seem and each interviewer will be looking for very specific keywords/actions in your answers. Each answer should not only contain technical content but also behavioral. These kinds of employers not only want to know what you did but how you did it.
Luckily there are also companies who think very different. -
First thank you that was really helpful input.
Okay, it's time for a reality check. Let's evaluate where you will be if and when you succeed in moving to the US. You will be a foreign drop-out without a degree, in a country that seems to value pieces of paper a fair bit. Worse still, you dropped out a foreign college, which will likely be valued less than a US college or university. Graduates are parking cars in the US and you're trying to find a proper job. You haven't saved any significant amount of money to start a business and don't have a viable business plan. You also have little to no contacts in relevant fields. You haven't built a portfolio of your own personal projects to mitigate the lack of a degree or work experience. You gripe about a "rigged system" that's not going to change for you or care about your woes. People hiring will inevitably see it as petty complaints of someone who didn't make the cut. You're entitled to your opinion, just like HR folks will feel entitled to throw out your resume because they don't like the attitude, your country of origin or your shoes. You will be competing with US nationals with degrees and possibly a portfolio of personal projects. Let's face it, you're not exactly setting yourself up for success. This is going to be a rough ride.
Regarding the first point you mentioned that I need to drop the attitude that a diploma (and school in general) is shitty, I don't see I need to drop my attitude towards it, I'm being honest with myself and you, this is how I think about it based on lots of thinking and experimenting with it. And I didn't mean to insult people who have the degree when it means something valuable to them, I'm saying this is my opinion about it as many others did also under this post, every one is entitled to his opinion as you said. I don't agree that statistically people with degrees do better than the self educated people, for different reasons but pay attention also that this comparison is not given an equal opportunity for these two categories, because the biased system favors degrees and gives more opportunities for degreed people, and many of those who are good graduate EEs at their work are good DESPITE finishing their degree and not as a result of it.
I say shitty when I'm complaining about this biased system not as a despise to the people who finished their degree, I could have finished it my self and be one of those.
I don't have to have good attitude to everything in the world, actually how can you? when you know that there are lots of nonsense going around in society, politics, corruption, crimes, discrimination , etc. and the same with Education and Jobs, there are shitty things about life. period .
Now the topic if I should mention that in a job interview is wise or not is another discussion, most people hide and polish stuff in their interviews so they can do it also here. but if the person that is employing me is like me then I probably have better chance expressing my real view.
for example if I go for an interview in pay-pal and Peter Thiel is making the interview I probably would have no problem mentioning my view about college because I know it matches his view too.
You say you don't agree with people with degrees statistically doing better than the self educated people. Can you show us any numbers that show this is true? -
But you really must know when to keep it to yourself vs. when it's acceptable to let it all out.
Every few years there's a new fad in the interviewing business. Numbers show it's all nonsense. People interviewing just a few people and trusting their gut do as well as organisations with convoluted procedures. Unfortunately it's the hoops you will have to jump through if you want to get hired in typically larger organisations. There will obviously be organisations that don't follow the herd, but it tends to be fairly widespread. It certainly makes the potential pool smaller.
Just a note about interviews. Many companies use targeted selection. This is completely different than the traditional interview process. It consists of multiple interviews with multiple people (usually 1:1). You will be asked a series of questions each set of which are designed to probe different aspects about your technical skills, interpersonal skills, behaviors etc. One of the most important things about these is to answer them in STAR format (situation, task, action, result). Basically, "I identified this problem, I realized I had to xyz by the end of whenever, so I did these tasks and the result was." The R is critical (and used to be my weak point) - it's the "so what?" part of the answer.
If you can, find out about a given employer's interview process. If they use the STAR format, see if there is anyone who could give you an idea of what to expect. Answering STAR questions is not as simple as it may seem and each interviewer will be looking for very specific keywords/actions in your answers. Each answer should not only contain technical content but also behavioral. These kinds of employers not only want to know what you did but how you did it. -
You say you don't agree with people with degrees statistically doing better than the self educated people. Can you show us any numbers that show this is true?
Than you need to define the word "better"?
Since that's a very vague and subjective word.
Is it better in a sense of, knowledge, practical experience, having a secure job, income, or maybe even happiness?
-
Than you need to define the word "better"?
I assumed fairly common and quantifiable definitions of better, like number of people employed as an EE or average or median income. I think it's hard to come up with a metric where people without degrees fare better in the field of EE in the US than those with one. Regardless how I feel about that and whether I think it's fair.
Since that's a very vague and subjective word.
Is it better in a sense of, knowledge, practical experience, having a secure job, income, or maybe even happiness?
Then again I didn't make the claim in the first place, so I'm curious what numbers support the statement. -
I don't agree that statistically people with degrees do better than the self educated people, for different reasons but pay attention also that this comparison is not given an equal opportunity for these two categories, because the biased system favors degrees and gives more opportunities for degreed people, and many of those who are good graduate EEs at their work are good DESPITE finishing their degree and not as a result of it.
Going to call bullshit on that with facts...
https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2014/article/education-level-and-jobs.htm
US Median annual wage 2013:
Postsecondary non-degree award : $35,120
Bachelor’s degree : $68,190
But then the "biased system" is rigged to give more money to people who studied harder
THE MAN is keeping me down, it's all part of a huge government conspiracy to keep the rich people rich and the poor people poor 
In case you did not know the purpose of a business is designed to make money not throw it away, if it were true that more people without degrees were better EE's than those with degrees would collectively earn less. Please further explain this conspiracy you talk of.for example if I go for an interview in pay-pal and Peter Thiel is making the interview I probably would have no problem mentioning my view about college because I know it matches his view too.
So yeah exactly... I think your best course of action is to become the next Steve Jobs. I mean you came here looking for advice, got plenty of it, yet none seems to resonate as it does not match your view of the world. Here is a bullet proof plan, in bullet point form...
- Take Acid,
- Wander around India .. something something Zen Buddhism
- Completely plagiarize your friends work to get a job at Atari.
- Sell illegal phone hacking devices "blue box"
- Other stuff
- Be billionaire.
Your just a faceless person on the internet, no one here can know you or your personal circumstances, so the only way to answer the question 'I quit EE, now what?' is just in general terms. I mentioned on page 1 of this thread that "A degree backed candidate tells me one thing and one thing only - This person is prepared to take shit and get the job done. " - That's a general statement from my personal experience (one that has been repeated by others here) I went on to say "Of course there are always exceptions" - and perhaps your one of them, if so then all power to you. But then if you were you would be giving us the advice... Oh that is whats happening here.... um... -
But you really must know when to keep it to yourself vs. when it's acceptable to let it all out.
Every few years there's a new fad in the interviewing business. Numbers show it's all nonsense. People interviewing just a few people and trusting their gut do as well as organisations with convoluted procedures. Unfortunately it's the hoops you will have to jump through if you want to get hired in typically larger organisations. There will obviously be organisations that don't follow the herd, but it tends to be fairly widespread. It certainly makes the potential pool smaller.
Just a note about interviews. Many companies use targeted selection. This is completely different than the traditional interview process. It consists of multiple interviews with multiple people (usually 1:1). You will be asked a series of questions each set of which are designed to probe different aspects about your technical skills, interpersonal skills, behaviors etc. One of the most important things about these is to answer them in STAR format (situation, task, action, result). Basically, "I identified this problem, I realized I had to xyz by the end of whenever, so I did these tasks and the result was." The R is critical (and used to be my weak point) - it's the "so what?" part of the answer.
If you can, find out about a given employer's interview process. If they use the STAR format, see if there is anyone who could give you an idea of what to expect. Answering STAR questions is not as simple as it may seem and each interviewer will be looking for very specific keywords/actions in your answers. Each answer should not only contain technical content but also behavioral. These kinds of employers not only want to know what you did but how you did it.
Targeted selection has been widely used for at least 2 decades.
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Targeted selection has been widely used for at least 2 decades.
Homoeopathy even longer.
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Going to call bullshit on that with facts...
from your own link;
https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2014/article/education-level-and-jobs.htm
US Median annual wage 2013:
Postsecondary non-degree award : $35,120
Bachelor’s degree : $68,190
But then the "biased system" is rigged to give more money to people who studied harder
Masters degree United States, $64,510
That's less than the bachelors
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That's because most of the master's degree professions are social whereas science/tech/engineering are bachelor's degree. If you limit comparison to one discipline you see another picture. e.g., for mechanical engineering:Quote
What does a master's degree get you? Well, the median annual wage for all mechanical engineers was $84,190 in 2016. The median represents the halfway point in a salary range from lowest to highest, with the top 10 percent tier earning an impressive $131,350 per year. Specifically, in engineering, more education equals more dollars. Mechanical engineers who have completed a master's program typically will earn 20 percent more throughout their careers than those with only an undergraduate degree.
(Source) -
I spent $20K+ and 1500 hours developing a seismic imaging code. When I went to market it, I concluded that marketing costs would be even larger. So I took a job I had been offered.
I started the project because I had been laid off. Better to be doing some sort of professional work than sitting around. If nothing else, it gives you a good response to, "What have you been doing since you were laid off?" -
That's because most of the master's degree professions are social whereas science/tech/engineering are bachelor's degree. If you limit comparison to one discipline you see another picture. e.g., for mechanical engineering:
QuoteWhat does a master's degree get you? Well, the median annual wage for all mechanical engineers was $84,190 in 2016. The median represents the halfway point in a salary range from lowest to highest, with the top 10 percent tier earning an impressive $131,350 per year. Specifically, in engineering, more education equals more dollars. Mechanical engineers who have completed a master's program typically will earn 20 percent more throughout their careers than those with only an undergraduate degree.
(Source)
Yes, the statistics are national averages here are the job titles for states with the highest concentrations by education level.
Bachelor's degree
Columbia: public relations specialists, reporters and correspondents, and management analysts.
Massachusetts : Microbiologists, biomedical engineers, and systems software developers
Virginia : ship engineers, nuclear engineers, and information security analysts.
Maryland : budget analysts, atmospheric and space scientists, and middle school special education teachers.
Connecticut : actuaries, aerospace engineers, and marketing managers.
Master's degree
Columbia: Political scientists, economists, and historians
Massachusetts : industrial-organizational psychologists, statisticians, and healthcare social workers.
Vermont : urban and regional planners, nurse midwives, and mental health counselors.
Maryland : statisticians, mathematicians, and epidemiologists.
Delaware
Most of the Bachelor jobs above look like private or private/public sector roles whereas the Masters jobs appear purely more towards government and academic end of the spectrum where lower incomes are the norm.
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Columbia is a state?
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I feel we're getting a bit sidetracked here.
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Columbia is a state?
I think it's called Washington, D.C now, but who can keep up with all these name changes. -
Fair enough. I honestly never connected Columbia with D.C.
(I wasn't being pedantic. I have a list of states beginning with "C" in my mind, and Columbia is not in the list. Washington D.C. didn't even occur to me.) -
I feel we're getting a bit sidetracked here.
I don't think so. All you have to do to get a degree is to do the tests, past the exams and graduate. It's not a very high bar to get over.
If you prefer self study to taught learning that's fine, you can still pass the exams, right? Nobody tells you how you have to learn, they just tell you what you have to learn. If you can't learn what you need to learn you are not qualified, and therefore how can you get a job that needs that knowledge?
This is not rocket science. -
This is not rocket science.
I've often wondered how tired that joke is at SpaceX ... 'actually I think you will find...'
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This is not rocket science.
I've often wondered how tired that joke is at SpaceX ... 'actually I think you will find...'
Well at SpaceX it's probably not brain surgery...