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I've been shocked by mains before, usually within the same hand, like two fingers. Even 120 can pack a punch and "throws" your hand away.
Can a shock that covers a small part of the body even kill someone, I would figure you'd wake up well before it starts to do any real damage if you got shocked in your sleep. Given it was a frayed cable even if there was 120 going through it due to an isolation failure it would have been concentrated to a rather small area of the skin. But I guess circumstances can vary, like was her feet touching a metal part of the bed that happened to be in contact with earth ground and maybe only the hot wire touched her etc. Shocks from arm to leg can be dangerous.
Either way it seems this happens a lot and I don't want to be doubting someone's death. It's sad that she died due to something preventable if it was better designed, if the story is in fact true. I'm thinking a lot of these either arn't isolated or are poorly isolated. -
I don't think that on the end of the cable you had the 120V (230V) voltage difference. That would be a huge surprise to me. Rather the bed was the return path. of the current. And this will probably cause enough current going through important body parts.
The burning of the cable was puzzled me at the beginning. The USB cable is probably rated at least 1A. I don't think it would burn that bad running 2-3A through it. But you can't drive that much to a human body with 230V. My assumption the burning came from a 5V shortage. Which probably was there at first. The overload caused to make a) the leads of the cable accessible and b) damage the charger due to overload. If the cable looked that bad, how would the transformer insulation look like? -
I wonder if a short could have been bad enough to cause the transformer insulation to melt, then it causes the isolation to fail. Kapton tape has a pretty high temp rating though... but who knows if they even bother with cheap units.
It would definitely be interesting to see a tear down of such PSU to see what went wrong. I think these incidents happen enough now that it should be investigated more if the stories are real. -
Who could / would do this?
From what I've seen, those cheap Chinese chargers often get nearly everything right; and would be perfectly fine, if it weren't for some tiny flaw which compromises the safety (like a track routed right across the isolation clearance.)
Perhaps it would be a good idea to design a minimal PSU with very low cost yet sufficient isolation/safety and in the same style as the Apple ones, with the explicit goal of getting as many of the Chinese manufacturers as possible to clone the design 100%, thus solving most of the problem with horrible isolation clearances. Transformer isolation is a different matter, but we could at least fix one problem at a time... -
The biggest problem with Apple chargers/power supplies is inadequate strain relief, they fail on both the charger end and the device end. A slight change in the plugs to spread the bending over a longer distance would make them last longer.
Increasing the cable thickness would also go very far towards increasing the original chargers durability.
Since the clone chargers try their best to look like the original chargers, changing the look of the original charger would result at least in the use of thicker wire in the clones as well. Again this would improve safety significantly. The materials apple users are likely pushing the current limits for that size wire, the clone makers are notorious for using even thinner wire.
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The problem is the that these laws apply to the importer - and for the online shopper buying overseas, they are the importer. So, strictly speaking, they have accepted the risk. IANAL, but my understanding is that as far as prosecution is concerned, if they try to re-sell non-compliant merchandise, then they will fall foul - but I'm not sure where self use falls.
I agree with you (I am also not a lawyer, and haven't spent ages researching the issue online). There probably are existing laws, to attempt to deal with the issues.
But I think those laws, worked reasonably well, 20 or 30 years ago. But in todays market place. Where Chinese manufacturers and suppliers, can easily place adverts on ebay, to sell potentially dangerous items. Without having to worry about expensive certification, paying EU/UK taxes, obeying any EU/UK laws, and pretty much without the slightest worry, about possible prosecution. Even if lots of people, die, because of a highly unsafe product.
So we might need new (modern) laws, designed to deal with the modern market places (especially internet ones).
E.g. Create laws, which put far more pressure on the internet auction/deal/sales making websites. Such as ebay.
Unfortunately, what I have just suggested, is opening up a giant can of worms. E.g. Governments or the EU, can sometimes make a bad job of creating new such laws, and they can end up impacting on the wrong people, big time. Yet they don't really deliver on making the market place safer/safe in the UK/EU, either.
Anyway, I'm rather short on answers/solutions, at the moment.
Finding out exactly what really happened in this tragic case, would probably help, in getting to the root cause(s), of these possible safety issues, with fake chargers from China (probably). -
The problem is that the law has no kept up with technology and the rules pretend that everything is bought via a UK importer that is satisfied with the product and resells it at their own risk.
To be honest I would prefer it is buying from places like china was only possible if your a company importing and you have to be satisfied with the product and prepared to take the rap if it kills someone. There are too many people putting their fingers in their ears because it is convenient. -
The problem is that it cannot now be policed at all.
When items arrived from another country in boxed of 10,000 of the same item then a random sample could be physically checked, a single set of approvals and other relevant import forms could be checked but when you have thirty parcels from thirty different addresses in China going to thirty different addresses in the UK of which perhaps twenty-five are as they say, with the relevant CE mark backing it up the five that slip through could never be stopped.
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To make matters worse, local stuff IS policed, you and me can't make something and sell it without there being tons of red tape, but China and other countries can dump all sorts of stuff here with zero repercussions. If people like us could actually put products to market without all the red tape it could stand a chance at competing with China while putting out superior and safer products.
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Be aware that anyone can and indeed do, print the CE logo/mark on products but that does mean that the product is both safe and meets all the regulations and in fact in many cases, items would not require the CE marking / approval are still printed with it, which I believe is in the hope it will convince people that the product is quality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking
The problem is that it cannot now be policed at all.
When items arrived from another country in boxed of 10,000 of the same item then a random sample could be physically checked, a single set of approvals and other relevant import forms could be checked but when you have thirty parcels from thirty different addresses in China going to thirty different addresses in the UK of which perhaps twenty-five are as they say, with the relevant CE mark backing it up the five that slip through could never be stopped. -
A CE mark done properly proves very little.
Self certifying and creating the build file is absolutely the bane of my life, it is far and away the worst part of any design, prototype and build route. -
Precisely and it does fool the general public at large, they see it feel reassured that the product is safe to use.
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I have no idea how many people die or are seriously injured due to hardware that has failed due to insufficient or counterfeit QA/QC, but there is an argument that it is probably a very small fraction, otherwise it would become the impetus for change. With so many things out there that do make us, sensitive bags of blancmange, meet a premature end, left right and centre, they are going to take priority when it come to remedying a bad situation at a legislative level. You can't fix the whole world; you just got to firefight starting from the worst of the worst.
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The problem is that the law has no kept up with technology and the rules pretend that everything is bought via a UK importer that is satisfied with the product and resells it at their own risk.
To be honest I would prefer it is buying from places like china was only possible if your a company importing and you have to be satisfied with the product and prepared to take the rap if it kills someone. There are too many people putting their fingers in their ears because it is convenient.
I like the idea, that you are coming up with. Usually, if you buy something from a conventional distributor, in the UK, it is at least, basically safe, meets the regulations and usually works, reasonably well (but not necessarily, brilliantly).
E.g. Farnell (Element14), Digi-key, Maplins, PoundLand (UK equivalent of US $dollar stores), Amazon (where they are the seller, NOT third party sellers) etc.
Then somehow, ban/limit/control stuff coming in from abroad. I think it would have to be a much wider net, than just China. Otherwise, they might just import via other countries. E.g. China exports the dodgy/unsafe/semi-illegal items to a different country (e.g. Thailand), who then post it to the UK, to avoid a new rule, heavily restricting Chinese imports.
But the above rule(s), cause a number of practical difficulties, introducing such rules. Such as, a Chinese company, might want to send initial product samples, to someone in the UK, to consider. Which don't meet the regulations (yet), because it is an early pre-release product.
There are other major problems, with Chinese stuff. They seem to have no respect for copyright, patents, intellectual property etc. The items, can not only be complete and utter fakes. But they can be such poor quality ones, and so unsafe, that they can be serious hazard, in waiting.
As someone else mentioned, Green lasers can blind (innocent) people and/or cause disruption to aircraft and helicopters. Yet they can be (imported), relatively freely (I believe).
Unless the item, is an out and out, banned item and highly illegal. Such as real guns and explosives (which I presume are scanned for using X-ray machines and maybe other techniques). The item(s), usually pass through, probably without even receiving the appropriate customs charges (tax, VAT/duties etc).
On the one hand, I also admit I like the opportunity to buy/obtain extremely cheap but nice/interesting (often small), bits of electronic kit. Such as DDS frequency generators or meters, for a few pounds or maybe £10, rather than spending £200 .. £1000, on the proper test equipment, for doing it.
It is saddening to come across threads like this, where it has gone horribly wrong, because a poor quality or fake item, has ended up setting somewhere on fire, or electric shock hazards etc. Resulting in serious injuries or even death(s), such as in this threads main topic.
I guess this is probably like in past, many, many decades ago. When people could just buy any chemicals they like, regardless of high strong/poisonous or highly dangerous they were.
Then lots of people started to die, from being accidentally poisoned by these substances, or burn by them (acids etc) or explosions because they were incorrectly/unsafely stored etc.
Hence tough new regulations were brought in, making it illegal to sell dangerous chemicals to the general public, etc. Hence the modern law/rules system, that we live in today. E.g. Explosives can only be bought with an appropriate (highly regulated) licence, for public safety (except small/medium sized fireworks, in the UK). -
I'm having trouble visualizing the current path for electrocution...
Is there something else that they haven't mentioned - like exposed, earthed, conductive surfaces or fittings in the vicinity?
Lots of dodgy crap on eBay without proper isolation from mains. It's easy to imagine a power supply that outputs +5v referenced to the hot side of the mains if you plug it in the wrong way.
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I'm having trouble visualizing the current path for electrocution...
Is there something else that they haven't mentioned - like exposed, earthed, conductive surfaces or fittings in the vicinity?
Lots of dodgy crap on eBay without proper isolation from mains. It's easy to imagine a power supply that outputs +5v referenced to the hot side of the mains if you plug it in the wrong way.
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That's not the problem. You can grab a 10kV power bus with your bare hands and not get electrocuted. The danger only exists when there is a closed circuit - a return path that allows current to flow.
The problem with this scenario is that such a return path is not defined.
As a result, we have oodles of hypothesis and speculation due to a lack of information.
For all we know, it may not have been electrocution at all - but an allergic reaction to toxic smoke released from the burning insulation around shorted or arcing power wires. -
The problem with this scenario is that such a return path is not defined.
Pretty easy to get a path to ground. Yes, you can grab 10kV if you're well insulated, but even a fairly high impedance to ground can be enough to carry a lethal current.
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Pretty easy to get a path to ground.
Yeah, well, let's get back on topic:
Just how easy would that be for a teenage girl in a bed? -
The problem is that it cannot now be policed at all.
When items arrived from another country in boxed of 10,000 of the same item then a random sample could be physically checked, a single set of approvals and other relevant import forms could be checked but when you have thirty parcels from thirty different addresses in China going to thirty different addresses in the UK of which perhaps twenty-five are as they say, with the relevant CE mark backing it up the five that slip through could never be stopped.
that is why buying on ebay from china should be shut down, harsh yes but how else do you control the quality of goods, the chinese will print CE on stuff galore, they probably don't even consider it breaking the law any more. Good should be imported by a company based in the country of import and be liable for the quality of what it imports and checking out any so called tests. I know it sounds like a big block on global trade but if it means stopping dangerous products made to undercut locally made products that ARE lawful then that is exactly what we need. -
I have no idea how many people die or are seriously injured due to hardware that has failed due to insufficient or counterfeit QA/QC, but there is an argument that it is probably a very small fraction, otherwise it would become the impetus for change. With so many things out there that do make us, sensitive bags of blancmange, meet a premature end, left right and centre, they are going to take priority when it come to remedying a bad situation at a legislative level. You can't fix the whole world; you just got to firefight starting from the worst of the worst.
Things never used to be like this though, not until we started importing crap from china on mass. If you keep an eye on your local trading standards (and every county has their own) you will find a number of ongoing cases of imported goods with safety problems. -
Seems unlikely.
Here's the cable I've been using to charge my phone at work for years (now iPhone 7, other previously). It's been like this for about three years, with no further apparent deterioration. It's the original cable that came in the box with my iPhone 5s. As far as I can tell, those ones all break. Contrary to popular opinion, I've never had any other Lightning cable do this.
Maybe I'm going to die, but it's only plugged into a USB port on a PC so it seems unlikely. The braiding is gone, but the wires all seem perfectly happy.
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I have no idea how many people die or are seriously injured due to hardware that has failed due to insufficient or counterfeit QA/QC, but there is an argument that it is probably a very small fraction, otherwise it would become the impetus for change. With so many things out there that do make us, sensitive bags of blancmange, meet a premature end, left right and centre, they are going to take priority when it come to remedying a bad situation at a legislative level. You can't fix the whole world; you just got to firefight starting from the worst of the worst.
It's a small enough fraction to be a news item and provoke discussion here whenever it happens... so indeed I'd say this was a freak accident. To put that into perspective, a few orders of magnitude more people die every day in motor vehicle accidents...
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Pretty easy to get a path to ground.
Yeah, well, let's get back on topic:
Just how easy would that be for a teenage girl in a bed?
Don't forget that it is quite common for the Vietnamese to sleep on the floor. Making some kind of path to Earth, much easier and more likely. None of the information I've seen so far, seems to clarify if her sleeping arrangements were in a raised bed or on the floor. But a quick google search (very quick read, so details may be wrong or misunderstood) seems to say they often sleep on the floor, which causes westerners problems when they stay there in local hotels. Fortunately, many hotels there have western type beds, for just that reason.
So by "bed", it seems to mean what we would more likely call a mat or sleeping mat.
But as others are saying, it is still just speculation. But maybe "educated" speculation.
There was another similar case (if I remember correctly), and they were (also ?) sleeping on the floor, and hence potentially (ignoring the pun), grounded/earthed. -
I could have been a metal frame bed in which case same difference.
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that is why buying on ebay from china should be shut down
So you propose to buy this stuff from gas station at 10x markup? Before shutting down eBay, a very robust import quality control system must be put in place. Otherwise you end up buying the same garbage, but way more expensive.