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In the case of guns, the claim "does not harm others" is laughable. Guns are designed as a weapon to kill people (with great efficiency and ease).
Wrong. Far from all firearms are designed for killing, and 'great ease' is laughable. Just because they're simple to operate, doesn't mean they're simple to use effectively.QuoteYou can't put guns up on the same shelf as say gay rights, or women's reproductive rights, which really do not effect other people but the person in question.
No, but I'm going to put them on the same shelf as the automobiles which kill and maim so very many more people every year. The petrol used in them is legal, too, and arson claims many more deaths than firearms every year in this country. And that was no different prior to the changes to the law.
Shall I bring up alcohol, too? I drink responsibly. Many others don't, and it costs more lives than firearms.
51 people were killed by firearms in the UK in 2011. 1901 were killed in road accidents, with a further 23,122 seriously injured. In just six months in 2011, 149 people died in fires, and only 87 of those were accidents. But yes, I'm sure firearms have a much greater impact on society than dangerous driving, gangs, arson, excessive drinking, and simple stupidity. But we still have cars, we still allow people to gather, you can still buy flammable material over the counter, alcohol is easily obtained in great quantity, and stupidity still isn't a crime. -
And is this hedge still needed or use full?
It was specific language invented for political purposes by people trying to solve a practical problem while living in a much different time. To adhere to it as if it was divine wisdom is idiotic.QuoteWould our free state be less secure without it?
Free state? I'm not sure what free state you're talking about. Do you mean:
The Land Of The Free (Condiments), Home of the Brave (Gun Owners)?
The 'gun ownership as freedom' pap which is fed to young children growing up in the US as part of the illusion that the country is not only the birthplace of freedom, but the most free nation on the planet, is rather humorous for anyone living some place with much more freedom.
Well as old fashioned and humorous as it may seem I do believe the constitution was inspired and the us is a great country. Blessed to be quite free. -
Wrong.
Then please enlighten us all as to what guns were designed for?QuoteNo
So your point was invalid, thanks for clarifying that.Quotebut I'm going to put them on the same shelf as the automobiles which kill and maim so very many more people every year.
There are many strict laws in place to help reduce that from happening, just like with guns.
Not a good example, try again.QuoteThe petrol used in them is legal, too, and arson claims many more deaths than firearms every year in this country.
You don't need petrol to start a fire.
In this country there are actually laws on restricting petrol in certain communities were petrol is a problem (not arson).QuoteShall I bring up alcohol, too? I drink responsibly. Many others don't, and it costs more lives than firearms.
There are also laws in place to help reduce that too.
Keep trying, you won't win the argument. Guns affect the whole community, and if the community decides they want strict laws in relation to guns, they have every right to have those laws enacted.
Dave. -
Well as old fashioned and humorous as it may seem I do believe the constitution was inspired
Please explain why it had to be amended no less than 27 times
Dave. -
Well as old fashioned and humorous as it may seem I do believe the constitution was inspired and the us is a great country. Blessed to be quite free.
Tell me, how do you judge those freedoms that you possess? I mean, how do you know how 'free' you are, comparatively? Have you ever lived in another country for any extended period of time?
Or do you judge the freedom you have based on quality of life issues? Such as the free healthcare you get - or the 6 weeks of free paid vacation from your work?
Or do you judge them based on the statistics of your free country? Such as 6 million American citizens in prison (more than any country in history) - that's about 760 per 100,000 citizens. Are they blessed to be quite free? -
Well as old fashioned and humorous as it may seem I do believe the constitution was inspired
Please explain why it had to be amended no less than 27 times
Dave.
Since they provided a mechanism to amend it they must have been at least inspired enough to know it would need to be a living document.
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Well as old fashioned and humorous as it may seem I do believe the constitution was inspired and the us is a great country. Blessed to be quite free.
Tell me, how do you judge those freedoms that you possess? I mean, how do you know how 'free' you are, comparatively? Have you ever lived in another country for any extended period of time?
Or do you judge the freedom you have based on quality of life issues? Such as the free healthcare you get - or the 6 weeks of free paid vacation from your work?
Or do you judge them based on the statistics of your free country? Such as 6 million American citizens in prison (more than any country in history) - that's about 760 per 100,000 citizens. Are they blessed to be quite free?
Wow your idea of freedom is getting free health care and time off? -
Keep trying, you won't win the argument.
I'm really not sure you're having the same argument I am. Let me just ask: Do you have any problem with me or any other sane, rational person owning a firearm because we find it enjoyable and interesting?QuoteGuns affect the whole community, and if the community decides they want strict laws in relation to guns, they have every right to have those laws enacted.
I'm sure, but.. we never voted to have the firearms laws we have. None of the 50 million people were asked by the three governments who put them in place. The house of commons decided, in one case, that the ban was not needed. The government (NOT of the people, NOT by the people, and NOT for the people. This is not Australia, just in case that needs clarifying) put them in place all by themselves. And they've done nothing useful.
And, I will once again point out, that I do not argue with strict laws. I argue with the specifics of them. I have no problem with requiring safe storage, extensive background checks, and all that. I even believe anyone who wishes to own a firearm or even an air gun should have compulsory training and testing on their handling and maintenance. Hell, give me a psych eval. I just don't believe I shouldn't be allowed to shoot a pistol because.. well, 'because'!
I can own a cannon, though!
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Wow your idea of freedom is getting free health care and time off?
Of course it's part of your freedom - if one illness can devastate you financially, what kind of freedom is that? The freedom to file bankruptcy? Freedom is about having choices - affordable health care, affordable university - these things - and many others - affect your available choices in life.
As a fellow American, I can tell you what special freedoms you possess by living there that I no longer do:
Free condiments at the fast food joints.
Freedom to easily own a gun.
Freedom to buy a bunch of crap (mostly from China) at a lower price than I do.
And I'm afraid that's the extent of it.
On the other hand, I have some freedoms which you don't have - which are SLIGHTLY more important in life than those listed above. -
Wow your idea of freedom is getting free health care and time off?
Of course it's part of your freedom - if one illness can devastate you financially, what kind of freedom is that? The freedom to file bankruptcy? Freedom is about having choices - affordable health care, affordable university - these things - and many others - affect your available choices in life.
As a fellow American, I can tell you what special freedoms you possess by living there that I no longer do:
Free condiments at the fast food joints.
Freedom to easily own a gun.
Freedom to buy a bunch of crap (mostly from China) at a lower price than I do.
And I'm afraid that's the extent of it.
On the other hand, I have some freedoms which you don't have - which are SLIGHTLY more important in life than those listed above.
Free condiments? Really? I Think you're confused about the difference between free as in beer and free as in speech. When I talk about freedom it has nothing with people giving me stuff. -
Debates like this (guns) will never be won by anyone.
There will always be many pros and cons from all sides.
Anyway, we (in Australia) seem to be having much more of a problem/issues related to younger generation.
Car abuse http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/one-stupid-decision-three-teens-dead-in-midnight-road-carnage-20121108-28z91.html,
Alcohol abuse, Drug abuse, Violence, disrespect, etc. etc. I wonder how much of this due to our so called "Progress/Political Correctness" in relation to government "regulated" upbringing, education? Maybe I have gone off topic and opened another can of worms? -
Debates like this (guns) will never be won by anyone.
There will always be many pros and cons from all sides.
Anyway, we (in Australia) seem to be having much more of a problem/issues related to younger generation.
Car abuse http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/one-stupid-decision-three-teens-dead-in-midnight-road-carnage-20121108-28z91.html,
Alcohol abuse, Drug abuse, Violence, disrespect, etc. etc. I wonder how much of this due to our so called "Progress/Political Correctness" in relation to government "regulated" upbringing, education? Maybe I have gone off topic and opened another can of worms?
Corrected link to teenage car tragedy
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/one-stupid-decision-three-teens-dead-in-midnight-road-carnage-20121108-28z91.html
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Free condiments? Really? I Think you're confused about the difference between free as in beer and free as in speech. When I talk about freedom it has nothing with people giving me stuff.
Yes, I understand - you have completely swallowed the stuff you were taught in school about it - and are repeating it back here. I know the spiel well - I learned it also in school there.
And yet, you ignore everything in my posts which points to something seedier lurking under the 'freedoms' of the US - such as more people jailed there than anywhere, anytime in the history of mankind.
Also, I hate to burst your bubble but every Western nation has free speech - and has for a long long time - many before the US was ever conceived. For example, Holland has been a republic since 1581 - 200 years before the Bill of Rights was a fevered dream in James Madison's mind.
Anyway, this is like hammering nails with a fish... I'm off to bed. -
If this has moved to a discussion about guns, Penn & Teller have some viewpoints on this
I feel like this
whenever a chat about politics comes up, mostly because over 99% of people cannot separate "what they feel" from logical/fair ideas and/or empirical facts. even most people who would consider themselves progressive (or what-have-you) blur and skew the lines; and they don't even know they are doing it.
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Debates like this (guns) will never be won by anyone.
yes because the problem is not the tool, but the mindset. thats the problem people forget (or havent figured out how) to fix in the first place. you give a monkey anything it will treat it the same... banana.
There will always be many pros and cons from all sides.
as for freedom of speech... do people have right to call out loud you or any other people a moron?
suicide? ahaks! cough cough. give me reasons why people should have a right or freedom or not to kill himself? the way i see it the world goes? if you are above 18 you should have the freedom to kill yourself
but its should be compulsary to make it as clean as possible to avoid mess and involvement of 3rd party. such as shooting your head (or cut throat or jump from 100m above with head goes first) after digging your own grave and setup a trap so when it goes bang you will be covered by soil automatically. failing to do so, you'll be sentenced to life imprisonment!
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The stigma attached to firearms was manufactured and stapled onto a pair of tragic incidents. Incidents I could recreate right now with a kitchen knife.
Fuck no, you couldn't. Try to kill (not that I recommend or endorse it), 30 of your coworkers or school pupils and wound 20 more with a kitchen knife, all in five minutes.
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So It's a hedge against federal power?
As if that worked out, ha, ha, ha.
Many years ago, when the Bush clan stole the presidential election in Florida, I was seriously fearing that the Floridians would resort to their guns to make it right. You know, there were those criminals in power, soiling the most sacred event in a democracy, elections, creating the very situation from which US gun-owners derive their right to have guns.
And what did all those gun-owners, self-styled defenders of the American freedom do? Nothing.
Why? Because the Bush are white. The bush are right-wing, catering for the gun owners. And because whatever they claimed, gun ownership was and is not about keeping the government in check. It is about compensating for insecurities, for a small penis and feeling strong and superior. It is a fetish. -
Fuck no, you couldn't. Try to kill (not that I recommend or endorse it), 30 of your coworkers or school pupils and wound 20 more with a kitchen knife, all in five minutes.
Indeed, including with the silly bow and arrow example too.
Reminds me of some idiot (politician?) who made the news after a gun massacre saying that he could do the same damage of one of these mass shooting with a spear. He was the laughing stock and made the front page for his effort.
The only way it could be done with a knife or any other hand held weapon is to do it "serial killer" style one by one. Kill one, hide, kill another, hide...
Dave. -
I'm really not sure you're having the same argument I am. Let me just ask: Do you have any problem with me or any other sane, rational person owning a firearm because we find it enjoyable and interesting?
You said:QuoteLimiting freedoms which do not harm others is not progress.
So you were saying that having your gun does not affect others. You are wrong, it does, and if you were in Oz it would affect me, gives me a position at the table to ague about this right of yours.
You are setting up a straw man argument with the latest question. There is lot more to the issue than simply agreeing with whether or not you as a responsible person should be allowed to own a gun for interest sake or other reason. A lot more.
I like our current tough gun laws in Oz, and I like our lack of a gun culture in our society.
Dave. -
At least in this country you were the small minority, so sorry, but that's the way society works and progresses.
Just like the smokers complain about not being to smoke anywhere any more etc, that's just too bad, you are the minority, your viewpoint lost out.
One of our Patriots called that "the tyranny of the majority" and so this is why we have a REPRESENTATIVE democracy and not a winner takes all free for all of pitchforks and torches.
Counties and societies are run by the people, and the predominate prevailing views eventually win out (on average over time). Some win, some lose.
And this is why we have a Constitution. Like in DC, where they managed to pass a law that stood for twenty years while a city that OUTRIGHT banned guns became one of the most violent in the nation - until a case finally went before the SCOTUS, who promptly pointed out "you can't do that because the Constitution says you can't." You wanna change the law? Amend the Constitution
And why all these stupid semantics and apologies over guns? OF COURSE the Constitution says guns being necessary to preserving a free society. It doesn't say "all farmers have the right to shoot coyotes" or "all shooters have the right to target practice." It says YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO GUNS BECAUSE YOU CAN KILL THE MOTHERFUCKERS WHO OPPRESS YOU.
Know why we're the most powerful nation on earth? Because no one will fuck with us. Because they know if they try to invade, screw the army and the air force and the marines, we have enough guns to arm every man, woman and child in the nation and enough ammo to kill every other motherfucker on the face of the earth. So leave us alone. -
And why all these stupid semantics and apologies over guns? OF COURSE the Constitution says guns being necessary to preserving a free society.
It might say or imply that, but it doesn't mean it was right. In fact, given a that a lot has changed with society since it was written, there is a chance they are now wrong. How wrong? just look at your countries gun crime/death stats compared to others that have have much tougher gun laws and no ingrained gun culture that was the result of this old amendment.
I'll take our stats any day of the week, thanks.
Dave. -
Seriously? You can't change human nature.
I'll ask again: how many think a Tiananmen could happen in the US? There are patriots in this country today who own tank killers.
"Yeah your stand against the tank holding a can of gas is a beautiful picture, we sure can relate to your spirit but too bad your country has no real freedom and no means of acquiring it because you can't own the tools of liberty."
"Oh, so BTW, here's a tank killer for you.... "
"What's that? No need for the gas because now there's no more tank and no more tank driving soldier of an army standing against its own citizens? SEE? NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT WE WERE TELLING YOU?"
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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" So this is the justification.
And why all these stupid semantics and apologies over guns? OF COURSE the Constitution says guns being necessary to preserving a free society. It doesn't say "all farmers have the right to shoot coyotes" or "all shooters have the right to target practice." It says YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO GUNS BECAUSE YOU CAN KILL THE MOTHERFUCKERS WHO OPPRESS YOU.
I heard arguments based on this many times before, and I think it's laughable. IF people are so afraid of their own government and feel the need to defend themselves against it, then perhaps the very same people should consider to nip the problem at the bud and ensure no fascist moron gets elected into power in the first place. This principle seems to work extremely well for most Western civilisations around the world.
I find this logic bizarre. I mean, we don't have this level of anti-government paranoia in Australia. Yes, we do have the usual clowns in Parliament, but nobody is afraid of them, because they get shot down pretty quickly (no pun intended).Know why we're the most powerful nation on earth? Because no one will fuck with us. Because they know if they try to invade, screw the army and the air force and the marines, we have enough guns to arm every man, woman and child in the nation and enough ammo to kill every other motherfucker on the face of the earth. So leave us alone.
Really? So that means Russia is up for grabs then? The EU and China, yeah?
Knock out major infrastructure in your country and your disorganised, undisciplined, gun toting civilians will be paralysed. Your only real hope of defence is the US army, the nuclear stockpile, and not a bunch of hobby gun owners.
Reality check: Invasion of a Western nation of any kind is unrealistic these days. The world is too intertwined and dependent on each other. Starting a war is will be at the detriment of everyone.
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So you were saying that having your gun does not affect others. You are wrong, it does, and if you were in Oz it would affect me, gives me a position at the table to ague about this right of yours.
What right? I never claimed any right, owning a firearm (outside the US, at any rate) is a privilege, not a right.QuoteYou are setting up a straw man argument with the latest question. There is lot more to the issue than simply agreeing with whether or not you as a responsible person should be allowed to own a gun for interest sake or other reason. A lot more.
No, I'm attempting to determine if it's even worth attempting to discuss the subject of firearms with you. It is, apparently, not.QuoteI like our current tough gun laws in Oz, and I like our lack of a gun culture in our society.
I do not like our current insufficiently tough (there are many better ways to handle firearm ownership) but overly restrictive (again, there's a discussion there you refuse to even see) laws here, and there is no gun culture to speak of and never was. Beyond our essential invention of the shooting sports which we're now slowly but surely killing off without having any effect on criminal use of firearms, that is. -
What right? I never claimed any right, owning a firearm (outside the US, at any rate) is a privilege, not a right.
It was a figure of speech.
And you are still wrong.QuoteNo, I'm attempting to determine if it's even worth attempting to discuss the subject of firearms with you. It is, apparently, not.
I find the subject interesting, but that lot I was talking about, really is a lot. I could type for hours and hours and still not even scratch the surface of all the issues.QuoteI do not like our current insufficiently tough (there are many better ways to handle firearm ownership) but overly restrictive (again, there's a discussion there you refuse to even see) laws here
I know nothing about your local laws.
But it seems that you are upset because you can't (easily?) shoot a certain type of weapon?Quoteand there is no gun culture to speak of and never was. Beyond our essential invention of the shooting sports which we're now slowly but surely killing off without having any effect on criminal use of firearms, that is.
Please cite references and stats to show your shooting sport is dying off, and provide a convincing argument why this matters to your general population.
And also please explain why you can't have the same level of fun with the (many I'm sure) weapons that are available to you.
And be careful when you claim that it has no effect on the criminal use of firearms, because that is a big call that involves a lot of factors, both immediate and long term.
There are a lot of sports and recreational activities that are either banned or limited in many respects in this country alone. And they usually don't involve potentially deadly weapons that can impact the community as a whole. So gun arguments on these grounds can go straight to the back of the line, thanks!
Want an example of a stupid technicality that is hurting a sport? Try Geocaching here in my state. It is banned in all national and state parks, which petty much means almost everywhere interesing. Yet I am able to "bushwalk" to the exact same location with a GPS. But if I say I'm geocaching instead of bushwalking, I'm breaking the law
Dave.