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Considering how often side cutter go missing in a lab, the best one is the one you can find!
This is one of the few cases where I'd rather have 5 cheapies than one good one.
I agree, "ESD safe" is pretty much a crock, don't bother.
If they are fine enough to get in and cut SO IC legs I'm happy
Lindstrom are very nice.
Dave.
I've always felt the same. When the boss said :-"Put in your wish list",most of the others would order the most expensive types of cutters.
I usually ordered the mid-priced tools.For the same amount,I could buy two,one for copper wire,& one for steel wire.
These usually lasted as long as one expensive tool.
I've always been suspicious that the ESD problems originally arose in "clean rooms" with very low humidity,& are fairly unlikely in normal,humid
conditions.
The "ESD damage will cause failure down the road"argument always struck me as being a bit self-serving on the part of the semiconductor manufacturers.
I do use ESD straps etc, if they are provided in work situations just to be on the safe side.
VK6ZGO -
Just wondering - does anyone here routinely wear a wriststrap ? I'd bet it's a small minority.
I don't even have one to wear.
My benches are covered with earthed conductive plastic sheet which measures a few megs when you poke it with a meter.
I am sure things can be blown up with ESD. You don't need a strap to avoid it, you do need some understanding and a decent sized conductive surface to use as a 'zero voltage' reference.
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Just wondering - does anyone here routinely wear a wriststrap ? I'd bet it's a small minority.
.and has anyone ever actually killed anything with static? I certanly haven't. PLenty of other ways, but not static.
I never damaged a device with static -- until I did.
In Houston TX (humid the whole year), I worked on potentially sensitive circuits all the time for years without ever damaging a part. Of course, based on my experience, I was not too concerned about ESD.
Then I moved to North TX, into a small carpeted apartment, and when setting up a home lab (with poor ESD protection), damaged a pin-driver board of a Data I/O programmer the one time I opened it up without a without a wrist strap. I was shocked (pun intended.), and could hardly believe it. Subsequently, over the past 10 years, I've been much more consistent about using ESD protection, especially for any professional work, but occasionally I've lapsed doing R&D stuff, and on a subset of those occasions, I've experienced the occasional failure of a chip, and one heartbreaking DSO injury. (The damage was sudden, after I replaced a floppy drive, and I know which chip went bad because a year later I finally tracked down I replaced the chip (a video DAC). I also get back boards from New York all too often with the same damaged analog inputs on a PIC chip, especially in the winter. I can say that my subsequent board revisions all have much better attention to ESD built in, as does the overall packaging plan. The bonus is that you can breathe much easier during compliance testing (which is less stringent than real world ESD events.)
One more thing--it is well known that small ESD discharges may not destroy a chip, but can cause it to function out of spec, or to prematurely fail remote from the event. So just because a chip seems to work in circuit doesn't mean it has not been damaged. That's why even in humid climates, it's worth taking at least rudimentary precautions for hobby and R&D work, and full precautions for delivered final products.
Dave -
People please .. show to us your cutters
And forged the ESD thingy ...
Thanks. -
On cutters - currently I am on my second pair of erem cutters after 10 years good use of the first pair; abused and nicked the first pair trying to cut some hard leads. I also have 3 or 4 pairs of inexpensive but perfectly good plato cutters scattered around the lab for all but the most delicate work.
For many years from childhood through my first engineering job, I used (in my limited home lab) a (new, thank you) toenail clipper, which worked perfectly well. The rest of my entire toolkit was a classic victorinox swiss army knife, one flat head and two phillips screwdrivers, a box-knife, pair of scissors, my teeth (for stripping wire-wrap wire), and a cheap radio shack soldering iron that plugged into the wall, plus an analog VOM and a logic probe. Believe it or not, I built and debugged several fairly complex digital projects with that stuff. That is why I love my lab equipment so dearly today :-)
Dave -
Perhaps self serving in the sense that you don't blame the manufacturer and lose them a design win after you damage the chip yourself. In fact, if the chips were ESD resistant, I guarantee you'd see it in the marketing materials and datasheets. However, these guys do uncap the chips and look at them under the microscope when they get complaints of systematic failures.
The "ESD damage will cause failure down the road"argument always struck me as being a bit self-serving on the part of the semiconductor manufacturers.
I do use ESD straps etc, if they are provided in work situations just to be on the safe side.
Dave -
Cant' hurt except your wallet. The more you use a cutter, the more bang you get for an expensive tool in terms of easing repeating strain on your hand and losing the cutting edge of the tool. But if your use is just for a home lab or slightly more, its overkill, an $8 Xcelite with our without ESD protection will do for decades, until you lose it or it breaks from much use.
I also buy el cheapos to leave in toolkits. Just audition one from a supplier, and if it survives, buy enough from the same batch to stock your toolbox. If they get stolen or lost it won't hurt, I got Xcelite look alikes for $2 and bought 4; I got one to audition, cut up some wire, checked the edges of the cuts and the blades with a loupe, and all's well, got the rest. That's a catch as catch can on these cheapo tools, brand names are useless on them so you get them while you can.Any advice about LINDSTROM 7191?, I'm thinking of buy one of those.
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The rest of my entire toolkit was a classic victorinox swiss army knife, one flat head and two phillips screwdrivers, a box-knife, pair of scissors, my teeth (for stripping wire-wrap wire), and a cheap radio shack soldering iron that plugged into the wall, plus an analog VOM and a logic probe. Believe it or not, I built and debugged several fairly complex digital projects with that stuff. That is why I love my lab equipment so dearly today :-)
Dave
Well I have a nice local link for you
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1105.0 -
I bought this one: Knipex 79 42 125 ESD very sharp and ESD safe
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Cant' hurt except your wallet. The more you use a cutter, the more bang you get for an expensive tool in terms of easing repeating strain on your hand and losing the cutting edge of the tool. But if your use is just for a home lab or slightly more, its overkill, an $8 Xcelite with our without ESD protection will do for decades, until you lose it or it breaks from much use.
I also buy el cheapos to leave in toolkits. Just audition one from a supplier, and if it survives, buy enough from the same batch to stock your toolbox. If they get stolen or lost it won't hurt, I got Xcelite look alikes for $2 and bought 4; I got one to audition, cut up some wire, checked the edges of the cuts and the blades with a loupe, and all's well, got the rest. That's a catch as catch can on these cheapo tools, brand names are useless on them so you get them while you can.Any advice about LINDSTROM 7191?, I'm thinking of buy one of those.
Finally!
An answer to my question.
The money is a no problem in this case.
Thank you saturation. -
Maybe my european neighbors heard of a german company called Wiha?
I use that one presented in the link here.
Nice one, cuts just fine even larger wires up to 1mm, but the downside is the cost. -
One more thing--it is well known that small ESD discharges may not destroy a chip, but can cause it to function out of spec, or to prematurely fail remote from the event.
Is it well known? Often stated with a 'may' or 'can' but I have never seen any evidence offered and a device failure will never be proven to have been caused by an ESD event months or years ago.
If you are talking about MOSFET gate insulation for example it seems to me it either breaks down or it doesn't and if it doesn't break down there is no current flow and so no energy to cause any damage.
Sure you can argue that there must be some precise level of ESD event which is just enough to cause a little undetectable damage so you can't argue with the 'may' or 'can' possibility, but, I wouldn't be surprised if events of that precise level were 1 in a 1000 and there would be no fear at all of shipping product with undetectable latent faults because for every one you did you would have had 500 real detectable faults.
Personally I think it is very likely bullshit put forward by suppliers of static management equipment to scare people into buying equipment to solve a problem they didn't think they had.
If anyone has done any real study subjecting semiconductors to ESD discharges followed by life testing of apparent non-failures and controls I would like to see the results. -
Expensive tools always mislead me to think they are more capable than what they can do. I always end up with a little nick on the cutting edge due to cutting harder materials. So look for cutters with high hardness number which will do the job.
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Maybe my european neighbors heard of a german company called Wiha?
I use that one presented in the link here.
Nice one, cuts just fine even larger wires up to 1mm, but the downside is the cost.
Well neighbor I think that I will still prefer the American Xuron 9200, over the Knipex 78 61 125 ESD,
because my Knipex it got an tiny damage on the blade because I tried to strip a copper tiny cable with it.
About Wiha .... I would love to get their free sample, if they do not afraid some real competition.
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One more thing--it is well known that small ESD discharges may not destroy a chip, but can cause it to function out of spec, or to prematurely fail remote from the event.
Is it well known? Often stated with a 'may' or 'can' but I have never seen any evidence offered and a device failure will never be proven to have been caused by an ESD event months or years ago.
[ Rant deleted.]
If anyone has done any real study subjecting semiconductors to ESD discharges followed by life testing of apparent non-failures and controls I would like to see the results.
How about this one. Nothing special about that article--it was listed among hundreds others like it examining various processes and topologies. If that's not to your liking, then try going to IEEExplore and searching for some simple keywords like "cmos" and "esd". You have to pay for access unless you can get it through your library, though. Some people take this business seriously, and if there are failures, the engineer / engineering company at the end of the line (making the chip and getting blamed for the failure) will do everything possible to find out what happened and how to stop it. There are actually engineers that only do this stuff.
Dave -
About Wiha .... I would love to get their free sample, if they do not afraid some real competition.
Well ... in my country there is no such thing as a free sample! Never heard of this.
As for ordering something from US, the transport costs are huge!. I tried to order a $9 video board fan and the transport costs were $22, and custom tax will add to this. It makes no sense to order something from there.
@others: sorry about off-topic. -
How about this one. Nothing special about that article--it was listed among hundreds others like it examining various processes and topologies.
That one appears not to cover the point. Latent failure caused by undetected damage is possible and people investigating it are deliberately trying to create undetectable damage. My point is given inadequate ESD management and the random nature of real world ESD events what is the probability of producing undetectable damage and latent failures without also producing detectable damage and instant failures?
I suggest that probability is low to very low and so argument that you need to spend more money on ESD management because you could have an ESD problem without knowing it may, because it plays on fear of the unknown, be persuasive, but, actually doesn't hold much water.
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One more thing--it is well known that small ESD discharges may not destroy a chip, but can cause it to function out of spec, or to prematurely fail remote from the event.
Is it well known? Often stated with a 'may' or 'can' but I have never seen any evidence offered and a device failure will never be proven to have been caused by an ESD event months or years ago.
If you are talking about MOSFET gate insulation for example it seems to me it either breaks down or it doesn't and if it doesn't break down there is no current flow and so no energy to cause any damage.
I have seen multiple devices exposed to ESD like events that became much noisier. The most recent was a stanford research preamplifier that uses a matched jfet input stage. I connected a piezoelectric sensor that apparently had a built-up charge probably due to a temperature change. The amplifier continued to work, but the voltage noise was an order of magnitude higher. I guess this was because it was a JFET input, so the junction was damaged by breakdown, but not shorted like you would expect with a MOSFET. Still, you might expect that a MOSFET or its protection diodes could be damaged such that the leakage current and noise went up while it continued to 'work'.
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Another German brand I encountered many times during my apprenticeship was Belzer (seems to be Bahco now?). I think the Bahco ones look crappy tho (just judging from the pictures).
I personally use Lindström (got 2), but also own a Knipex Sidecutter.
The Knipex one is good, the Lindströms are better.
I also own a set of Wiha torx screwdrivers, and they are really nice. If the sidecutters made by Wiha are as good as their screwdrivers, they might be well worth the money. And compared to Lindström they are rather cheap. The Schmidtz ones look very nice too.
In the end, it's up to you. Buy a quality brand and you'll be fine.
Cheers from Germany,
Florian -
I suggest that probability is low to very low and so argument that you need to spend more money on ESD management because you could have an ESD problem without knowing it may, because it plays on fear of the unknown, be persuasive, but, actually doesn't hold much water.
For a hobbyist who is not experiencing device failures, this is is a perfectly valid point of view--only rudimentary ESD protection, if any, is necessary, and rare failures (or no failures) are not a burden. In that case the expense of ESD protection (both in the design and in the assembly or service process) is out of proportion to the benefit. This is a very legitimate calculation for a hobbyist.
If you are delivering and supporting a product, then the equation changes, and ESD protection up front (to the device and to the assembly process) becomes quite cheap compared with servicing returns.
If you are servicing an expensive piece of equipment, then good ESD precautions are worthwhile as well. I have certainly experienced this. I recall in one video or podcast Dave Jones saying that the lack of ESD precaution during a teardown is part of the test, but he is saying that "tongue-in-cheek" (a US idiom meaning with a bit of ironic humor). You will note that he nonetheless wore a wrist strap when disassembling the HP scopes, because he knows that the ESD protection is engineered of the whole system, and once you remove a board, the designed-in ESD protection mechanisms (such as the low impedance path to chassis ground, which dissipates charge by air ionization) are gone or less effective.
Dave
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The Knipex one is good, the Lindströms are better.
Don't confuse the cheaper Electronic Super Knips like the 78 03 125 ESD with the precision sidecutters like the 79 42 125 ESD
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I suggest that probability is low to very low and so argument that you need to spend more money on ESD management because you could have an ESD problem without knowing it may, because it plays on fear of the unknown, be persuasive, but, actually doesn't hold much water.
To those that don't know, it is a matter of fearing the unknown. To those that know, it is a matter of managing risk and controlling outcomes.
Dave -
The Knipex one is good, the Lindstroms are better.
Don't confuse the cheaper Electronic Super Knips like the 78 03 125 ESD with the precision sidecutters like the 79 42 125 ESD
I was comparing apples to oranges anyway, since my Knipex is a bigger model while my Lindstroms are like the 79 42 125 ESD. In that respect the 79 42 125 ESD seems to be on par with the Lindstroms.
My Knipex is definitely not a Super Knips. Probably this one, but I am not sure: 77 32 115 ESD.
My Lindstroms are probably those Models not sure: RX8130 and 8142, or something similar.
Cheers,
Florian -
I buy the Xcelite cutters. They are cheap, reasonably well made, and seem to last as long as the more expensive varieties. They are also available at the local Home Depot branded as Crescent, but are identical otherwise.
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I buy the Xcelite cutters. They are cheap, reasonably well made, and seem to last as long as the more expensive varieties. They are also available at the local Home Depot branded as Crescent, but are identical otherwise.
Last night I had the same dream, but I did wake-up ..
Get a XURON 9200 ... and then you will thank a Greek for something that the Americans did LOL
( I got two of those very cheaply, second hand looks like new, from the American Ebay )