For example I'm pretty sure I recall reading that Microsoft does not allow employees to go work for Google.
I used to work for Microsoft and there is no such restriction at all. They would get into a lot of PR problems if they did. Indeed since I left they changed thing so you can even moonlight and do contract work without prior permission if it is independent of the work you do for the company.
As an executive (VP) I did have some additional restrictions I think with respect to stock ownership in competing companies but that was it.
That said, if you left and immediately joined a competitor and took all your emails with you, watch out!
Best thing to do is to leave on good terms, leave everything behind, and they won't bother you. Companies don't want to get a reputation that they sue their ex-employees so they think very hard before going after anyone.
With respect to OP, an attorney can give best advice as to general attitude of the judges in your state/country with respect to such enforcements. 30 minute conversation won't cost you much and give you peace of mind.
With respect to OP, an attorney can give best advice as to general attitude of the judges in your state/country with respect to such enforcements. 30 minute conversation won't cost you much and give you peace of mind.
IMO don't spend a cent on that, just find another job without such a restriction.
It's alarming how many people won't read anything they sign. When I ask for the opportunity to read a document before signing, I'm consistently met with surprise, which tells me most people blindly sign whatever is put in front of them. No one ever objects to the question, though.
My Altium contract was a doozy. It said in no uncertain terms that everything you invented PRIOR to working at Altium became the property of Altium! unless you declared in writing detailing all previous projects and ideas you wanted to claim. I gave them a 13 page report listing every project and idea I had, and they were stunned, no one had ever gave them a list before. They signed it.
Excellent.
I'd have been very tempted to slip in some ideas/projects that would overlap with Altium's business, partly to see if they read your report and partly as a form of stockpiled ammunition/armour. It shouldn't be too difficult to invent some such ideas on the spot
True. Court and legal system in US works vastly different than europe. Didn't pay attention to the flag 
.
Yeah, in Europe they'd have a lot of trouble enforcing a clause like that. In the US not so much I would expect...
The goal is often not to win a case, it's to scare you into submitting. A big company could tie you up for years and bankrupt you in legal fees if it came to that.
i was also given a contract with something like that in it.
The contract didn't state outright that they owned all IP i created outside of work hours, but it didn't exclude outside work ours either.
So i questioned them about it and had the wording changed.
Any company will want to cover IP you might create when doing your normal work tasks from home after hours. So they do have a legit reason to include your time at home in the contract and i don't see that as wrong. It just needs to have a clause to limit it to work related stuff,
One way to do that, which business are usually fine with, is to scope limit the home-time issue to the specific industry that your work is in. "Work you do at home in industry X is our IP" etc..
It's also a VERY good idea to get them to add an acknowledgment in your contract of your side-business/hobby. Something to basically say. Yes we are aware you do/make this other stuff and we're ok with it. If there is ever an issue with something you invent it's more clear-cut if it's related to your stuff or their stuff. Having it documented in the contract what is 'your stuff' and 'their stuff' helps.
Of course, if your hobby/side-business is in the same industry as your work this will likely be a problem and I would stay away from any job where this is the case.
The goal is often not to win a case, it's to scare you into submitting. A big company could tie you up for years and bankrupt you in legal fees if it came to that.
For any party it will be cheaper going for a settlement. Here judges typically try to steer you towards this one more time during the session.
There are valid reasons for an employer to own these things but defining the line is very grey and difficult.
If you work somewhere and have access to expensive equipment that was necessary for your idea to achieve a practical path to reality then why should they not own it. Specifying the actual date and time that an idea matured into a viable solution is not possible so always there will be fighting about it and having a clause in your contract makes that easier. You have to expect it and consider it carefully before you take the job or accepting the contract.
Just another of those problems that us mega brains have to contend with in life.
Agreed, if you use work equipment, even after hours, its very grey.
Agreed, if you use work equipment, even after hours, its very grey.
Not as an employee at the EEVblog, it's written into the contract that's not a problem
Intellectual property:
Patents
Copyright
Industrial design rights
Plant varieties
Trademarks
Trade dress
Trade secrets
So I guess just dont do any of these? Nothing prevents you from making a schematic and PCB layout and make and sell your own products. I mean, you can just open source it, and make an excuse, that you had to do that, because GPLvx license. Do you plan to make a patent outside of working hours? Something where you are payed because of the IP? Seems unrealistic to me. Also, good thing about trade secrets, is that they are secret.
It's alarming how many people won't read anything they sign. When I ask for the opportunity to read a document before signing, I'm consistently met with surprise, which tells me most people blindly sign whatever is put in front of them. No one ever objects to the question, though.
A friend of mine got a bad reaction when he asked to read a tenancy agreement (in-branch at a national estate agent chain) before signing it. Basically "I'm not waiting around for you to read it so you can sign it right now, everyone else does" so he asked if he could take a copy away to read and come back and sign it the next day. They said he couldn't do that either, and he had to get them to phone the regional manager before he was given a copy.
Coming back to the original topic I wouldn't sign such a contract, either they agree to amend it or I'll go work somewhere else. I'd rather flip burgers than be unable to work on my own projects in my own time.
It's alarming how many people won't read anything they sign. When I ask for the opportunity to read a document before signing, I'm consistently met with surprise, which tells me most people blindly sign whatever is put in front of them. No one ever objects to the question, though.
My Altium contract was a doozy. It said in no uncertain terms that everything you invented PRIOR to working at Altium became the property of Altium! unless you declared in writing detailing all previous projects and ideas you wanted to claim. I gave them a 13 page report listing every project and idea I had, and they were stunned, no one had ever gave them a list before. They signed it.
I am surprised it even came up at Altium, as a software company. For whatever reason, it appears they had a need to develop hardware, but it is not like their business was to 'invent' hardware ideas to capitalise?? I would have thought, as long as no one was planning on producing any CAD systems, they would have no reason to question what you get up to.
You can understand employers like Dyson are in a difficult position though, to protect themselves. You pay someone to come up with ideas, but how can prevent them from keeping the best ones for themselves. Even if the idea did come out of hours, just because it dropped into you head when you were not at your desk, does not mean it doesn't form part of your job to have those eureka moments.
The rules will vary between countries, but in the UK (and probably elsewhere) it can be a grey area.
If there's an ownership clause in your employment contract, that will generally be upheld in court. But a lot depends on whether your job involves duties that could be expected to lead to invention. If it doesn't, then a case can be made that the employee is entitled the intellectual property rights, especially for anything done out of hours and not involving company resources. (Because you were never paid to invent and were not provided with the resources to do so.)
Even if your work does involve activities that could lead to invention, there's still an argument over inventions unrelated to your employment. (Because you're known to be an inventor and would be expected to invent at the weekends for your own purposes.) This is a weaker argument, but not unheard of in case history.
If a dispute ever breaks out, some things to be aware of:
1. there's no statute of limitations on patents. A claim can be made decades after the fact.
2. there's no requirement for either side to fully disclose all evidence before a trial. Either side can (and usually does) keep a few wild cards up their sleeves for use at the hearing.
3. there's no burden of proof. The ultimate decision is made by the judge (usually a senior patent examiner), and it'll be for one side or the other rather than sharing/joint ownership arrangement.
4. emails are accepted as evidence. The employer will generally dig out anything that suggests you invented for the company.
In the UK, the final hearing is held at a special branch of the High Court, and you will need a specialist barrister. You can be looking at well over £1000/hr in fees. They will probably need to consult a Queen's Councillor, and they are five figures per hour. (The hearing is actually not that formal, no wigs and gowns, but they do have a stenographer typing everything up.)
Before you get to that stage there will be a mediation session with an independent barrister (fees shared between opposing parties), and there's a general expectation that the parties will try to resolve things out of court.
Case history is cloudy on the matter, so ultimately it boils down to who convinces the judge on the day. (Actually it usually runs to two days.) There is an option to appeal the decision, but it rarely changes the verdict.
If you ever get into a dispute with a small company, then your best strategy is to stand your ground and try to reach a compromise arrangement where both sides benefit. (Always be seen to act reasonably.) Larger companies will have the money to up the ante until you fold, so you can expect an 18-month battle and £50k+ in fees.
The other (safer) option is to quit the company and wait six months before doing anything with your idea, but even then you're not completely in the clear. As they say in Holywood, "where there's a hit, there's a writ". If someone wants to take your idea off you, there's nothing to stop them trying.
(You might also want to look into intellectual property insurance companies, just in case.)
You can tinker on anything outside your employer's products or industry, the inclusion clause I see lately is "related to the [employer's] business".
It makes sense- as some people develop a competing product all the while working for a company, with the inventor's full intention to quit and immediately start a competing business.
Not being allowed things related to the employer's business still doesn't make sense. You're obviously going to tinker with things related to what you're working on. If they want to own it, however, they should pay for it. I'm not working for free. Well, I technically give away a lot of hours, but that's my own choice
Related to line of business inventions being owned by the company makes sense to me.
Take any random field. Suppose you're working on valves for an oil and gas company and "on your own time" come up with a substantial improvement to the valve design. "Yes, my job was to improve the design of valves. Yes, I did make a substantial improvement, but I distinctly recall that I had that insight while turning off the shower, so obviously, the improvement is mine and not the company's." That's just not going to play well in court is my prediction. (Nor should it.)
(For the record, I'm an executive and strongly supportive of our employees' rights to tinker and own their inventions, provided they're outside the scope of what we do as a company.)
Coming up with a valve design whilst in the shower would most likely be deemed the property of the employer, but there have been cases (in the UK at least) where the point has been argued in court. The case history is not extensive, but it's not completely consistent either.
There's a process in the UK called a "patent opinion", which is not very expensive (just £200). You can use it to get an informal review (by a senior patent examiner) of who's entitled to ownership of an invention.
"An opinion can help you negotiate a settlement or decide whether to proceed with full legal proceedings. An opinion is not binding on you or others involved. You can still proceed with full legal proceedings in the court or with us if you want to.
Our opinion is an independent assessment of the main issues in a dispute, prepared by one of our senior examiners. We base opinions on papers you and anyone else involved send us."
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/opinions-resolving-patent-disputes
Some firms are also making employees sign non-compete agreements agreeing to not work in similar kinds of businesses for periods of several years after leaving their employment. Even pizza delivery people (!) have been forced to sign such agreements.
You can understand employers like Dyson are in a difficult position though, to protect themselves. You pay someone to come up with ideas, but how can prevent them from keeping the best ones for themselves. Even if the idea did come out of hours, just because it dropped into you head when you were not at your desk, does not mean it doesn't form part of your job to have those eureka moments.
Ideas are cheap and easy; implementation is expensive and fraught.
A good employer will let the employee see the best way to get their patentable ideas implemented is with their company. But that has its limits: what happens if another company pays handsomely for expertise in the field, and what about non-patentable information? Classic examples of the latter are sales prospects and inside customer information.
In none of those cases is the employee keeping the idea "for themselves".
(You might also want to look into intellectual property insurance companies, just in case.)
+1, not in the case of me having an employer, but just now finding out such companies exist...
You can understand employers like Dyson are in a difficult position though, to protect themselves. You pay someone to come up with ideas, but how can prevent them from keeping the best ones for themselves. Even if the idea did come out of hours, just because it dropped into you head when you were not at your desk, does not mean it doesn't form part of your job to have those eureka moments.
Ideas are cheap and easy; implementation is expensive and fraught.
A good employer will let the employee see the best way to get their patentable ideas implemented is with their company. But that has its limits: what happens if another company pays handsomely for expertise in the field, and what about non-patentable information? Classic examples of the latter are sales prospects and inside customer information.
In none of those cases is the employee keeping the idea "for themselves".
I disagree. A crap idea is nothing, but an idea is not always some pipe dream. A company is setup ready to take a legitimate idea to a working level, with investment in equipment and workforce already, whether that it an enhancement, or a separate solution, if they believed in it Otherwise, if they are only interested after the tinkering and hard work, an employer would only need you to offer them first dibs on an idea, and then they could choose whether to invest their own time and resources, or let you peruse it in your own time for yourself.
With respect to OP, an attorney can give best advice as to general attitude of the judges in your state/country with respect to such enforcements. 30 minute conversation won't cost you much and give you peace of mind.
IMO don't spend a cent on that, just find another job without such a restriction.
I assume if OP thought he could find another job as good or better without this restriction, he would have done that and not be asking us what to do.
Almost every major company these days has policies about IP, prior inventions, moonlighting, etc. As such, it is very useful to speak to an employment attorney to know how enforceable those things are, and ways of getting them changed. I have done this and it has paid lots of dividends. This advice also comes in handy if you are ever laid off and face signing such things to get your severance payments.
At $300/hour around here, a half hour conversation costing $150 is just good education.
For example I'm pretty sure I recall reading that Microsoft does not allow employees to go work for Google.
I used to work for Microsoft and there is no such restriction at all. They would get into a lot of PR problems if they did. Indeed since I left they changed thing so you can even moonlight and do contract work without prior permission if it is independent of the work you do for the company.
As an executive (VP) I did have some additional restrictions I think with respect to stock ownership in competing companies but that was it.
That said, if you left and immediately joined a competitor and took all your emails with you, watch out!
Best thing to do is to leave on good terms, leave everything behind, and they won't bother you. Companies don't want to get a reputation that they sue their ex-employees so they think very hard before going after anyone.
With respect to OP, an attorney can give best advice as to general attitude of the judges in your state/country with respect to such enforcements. 30 minute conversation won't cost you much and give you peace of mind.
That's good to know, wonder if what I heard was from older days of Balmer. I remember an incident where he said "I want to F'ing kill google" because an employee went to work for them or something like that and it was against the contract. I don't really remember the full story so may have miss read.
My company does have a clause like that though, but think it's only for retirement. If you retire you're not allowed to go do side work after in the same industry. I don't think it applies if you quit or are laid off. They don't really enforce it though, there's a guy who retired and he's actually doing part time contract work FOR our company.
It took a bit of back and forth but on my current contract, but I retain ownership of my IP with an unlimited use clause for anything I design specifically for my job, In other words they can use it freely and in any context, until the end of time. So long as I submitted it to them. There was a non competition clause of sorts, but I narrowed down the scope to only competition that was against my existing company. And only for 1 month after termination of service.
If you are worth it to a company. Then a fair bit of the contract can change.
It took a bit of back and forth but on my current contract, but I retain ownership of my IP with an unlimited use clause for anything I design specifically for my job, In other words they can use it freely and in any context, until the end of time. So long as I submitted it to them. There was a non competition clause of sorts, but I narrowed down the scope to only competition that was against my existing company. And only for 1 month after termination of service.
If you are worth it to a company. Then a fair bit of the contract can change.
It's worth the hassle and drama to negotiate IP agreements, rather than be a sheep and sign it in stock form.
Some asshole companies have "aggressive ask for it all" IP agreements. Once I was given a 22 page one that surely said they owned my balls too. Just terrible.
Almost every major company these days has policies about IP, prior inventions, moonlighting, etc. As such, it is very useful to speak to an employment attorney to know how enforceable those things are, and ways of getting them changed. I have done this and it has paid lots of dividends. This advice also comes in handy if you are ever laid off and face signing such things to get your severance payments.
In Australia that would be illegal, you don't have to sign anything to be laid off, and the company is legally obligated to pay out your severance.
I'd be very surprised if this wasn't the same in other countries.
They can of course ask, and pressure you to do so, but only a fool would sign something in order to get their legally entitled severance pay.
It took a bit of back and forth but on my current contract, but I retain ownership of my IP with an unlimited use clause for anything I design specifically for my job, In other words they can use it freely and in any context, until the end of time. So long as I submitted it to them. There was a non competition clause of sorts, but I narrowed down the scope to only competition that was against my existing company. And only for 1 month after termination of service.
If you are worth it to a company. Then a fair bit of the contract can change.
Yes indeed.
On the other side of this discussion, i.e. as someone writing contracts for a commercial r&D company, it was
necessary to delimit who owned the IPR on a project paid for by an external client.
A typical conversation would be "You are relying on our expertise gained on previous projects for our past clients, and we expect to be able to do the same in the future for our future clients. Nonetheless, we will not sell the IP to your competitors in the field of X", where X was specified.
Reasonable clients understood and accepted that. If they didn't, then we were reluctant to enter into contract with them.