Q: What is a broadband hub?! - a network setup advise needed

• Q: What is a broadband hub?! - a network setup advise needed
  Posted by V_King on 01 May, 2023 10:41
• Yes, I am confused. I know what router does, I know what switch does, but googling hub comes up with all kinds of information which is beyond my aging head    I wonder if anybody with more experience could advice the easy solution for the situation below. It does not have to be best, it does not have to be ideal. Most probably my requirements will change in next few years, so I do not want to invest a huge amount of money AND I want to avoid DIY solutions.
  
  My situation, up until now for the last three years, in my workshop I was using my phone hotspot for the internet access to my laptop and was perfectly fine.
  Now pretty much overnight my requirements got much more complex. I bough a small cnc mill and need to get it all wired up with as explained below:
  1. I need to connect the machine via ethernet cable to a "local network", to allow full functionality. One part of it is a local windows FTP server, for data transfer into a cnc mill controller (USB key transfers is not an option in this case). And then machine has a special software to control the machine further via local network ethernet connection.
  2. I need to have a camera running (at the moment I am looking at the 4K IP CCTV cameras with POE to simplify wiring). I need to record the machining, so any issues could be caught on camera. The machine will be mostly run overnight, because we have lower electricity tarif (the electricity price ibto the workshop is crazy at the moment and night tarrif is half that).
  3. As I am getting some cameras for the machine, I would like to get two IP POE cameras for the outside. Had some stuff nicked recently twice outside the workshop, so at least would like to know what is happening.
  4. I would like to have remote access to the IP cameras in the machine, to monitor any potential issues. I need broadband for that. Any wired installtions are out of the question, due to the crazy quotations I received. We have a 5G tower just accross the road. It is Three tower (UK) and Three is offering very good deal for 5G broadband. They send their own broadband hub with the contract.
  
  So all in all, I think I need:
  A router to create a local network for all the machine functionality and would like to understand what are my options.
  Does it have to be two separate networks for the FTP/machine controlling and IP cameras, or can it be the same one network?
  How do I get all the IP cameras to record, save and share the infor into online. The one model I was looking at has windows software, which allows to record all the videos from the feeds and I guess somehow I need to be able to feed all that to internet. I guess then I would have to dedicate a PC for that to run 24/7
  The broadband hub from Three is  Zyxel NR5103E.  E is important, because Zyxel only lists non E option in their website, and from my previous experience broadband providers, the models could have a completely different functionality.  But maybe a bog standard broadband router could do for me all of the above? I would just need to sort out the POE somehow into the cameras. Three website provides only very basic information about that router and when called Three, the chap said he can not help me with full manual PDF before I commit.
  OR, maybe there is some go to router for small enterprises I could just buy used on ebay for pennies and hook everything to with plenty of overheads.
  
  Any constructive advice is much appreciated.
• #1 Reply
  Posted by BTO on 15 May, 2023 15:17
• Hi mate, You're in luck
  I do electronics for a living as well as Telecommunications and CCTV
  
  OK, so that was a massive mouthful and really really over complicated,
  LET'S SIMPLIFY IT SHALL WE
  
  1. You need a router
  
  2. You have a milling machine that needs to be connected to LAN that is controlled by proprietry software that is stored on your computer
  that also connects to the same LAN in order to access the IP Location of the Milling machine.    No Problem
  
  3. You want a few cameras (CCTV) but can't seem to figure out how to do this
  
  
  NO PROBLEM , HERE IS WHAT YOU DO
  Let's define a few things
  
  Modem - This is a device that has only 1 Ethernet Port on it, it's purpose is ONLY to receive a WAN Signal from the service provider.
                In order for you to (simply stated) to use this internet connection you need A ROUTER
  
  Router - Has 1 Ethernet Port Labelled as WAN (it means.. the internet signal coming form the service provider).
                and a few (usually 4) yellow Ethernet Ports called LAN Ports.
                it's called a router because it has the ability to ROUTE data do different devices (where the modem doesn't do that)
  
  You connect the modem's WAN port to the Router's WAN Port
  You then connect all your other devices, CCTV, Milling Machine, Computers (that are hard wired) to the LAN Ports
  
  HOWEVER....
  PROBLEM 1 - Obviously the CCTV Camera's need P.O.E.
  P.O.E. - (Power Over Ethernet) -  Meaning... in a digital network with a 4 pair UTP cable, Pair 1 (The Blue, Blue/White) are not used.
              Later a technology was invented to use this unused pair, they decided to send power over the lines, thus POWER over ethernet.
  
  Your router does not have sufficient power to feed your camera's
  
  SOLUTION - You need to buy a NETWORK SWITCH as follows
  - Figure out how many ports you need, then double it (Trust me)
  - Must be a GIGABIT NETWORK SWITCH
  - Must be POWER NETWORK SWITCH
  - Must be P.O.E. NETWORK SWITCH
  NOTE :  sometimes you can get a 8 Port GIGABIT POE NETWORK SWITCH but only 2 of the ports are POE rated
  and the others are non POE,  Make sure there are enough POE ports
  i would recommend a brand like TENDA (reliable and cheap)
  
  Now. do you need a dedicated computer running 24/7 ?     NO
  For the Camera's you need a controller box (N.V.R.) Network Video Recorder
  When you buy the camera's you will buy the NVR as well
  
  now quick note on NVR and to address your question about , is it all on 1 network ?
  well... Your internet runs to your modem then router (or ...Straight to the router, in which case it's called a  MODEM/ROUTER)  Not confusing huh ? 
  
  you are fine to plug in your CNC MILLING Machine into a LAN Port -  that's solved
  load the milling software onto your computer
  Plug that computer into another LAN Port - that's solved
  Obtain the I.P. Address of the Milling machine
  go to the computer
  Open command Prompt
  run a ping test to see if the computer can see it
  
  (let me know if it can't, i'll troubleshoot it with you at a later time if that happens)
  so.. that's solved
  
  Now...
  An NVR is a little beastie that has 2 networks (so to speak)
  Network 1 - is the one that uses DHCP to connect to your router (this is the one where you plug the ethernet port
  of the NVR into the LAN Port of the router
  
  Network 2 - usually under settings and SWITCH,  you need to ensure that the internal switch settings IP address is different
  from the main router IP address
  the switch effectively is the ports that the camera's plug into
  
  so that's solved,   
  Because the NVR will supply the necessary voltage and it has a built in POE switch to power the camera's
  
  Now as for connecting to the internet and viewing the camera's that way , and monitoring .
  THAT'S SOLVED, that is supported by the internal software
  you download teh app to your phone
  you scan the QR code and if all goes well, you're up and running
  
  BUT .. WHAT'S THAT YOU SAY
  "No , Martin, but i said my camera's are wireless and i want to avoid cabling"    Yeah i know
  i explained this to you so you understand the concept, ok
  
  Ok, so using the above principles
  
  Your milling machine is setup direct into your router
  
  Now with CCTV Camera's , with wired you use an NVR
  you can also not use an NVR and just download the manufacturer software on your PC (but this requires your pc
  to have enough resources, it's complicated)
  ALSO... You can go the wireless route (i don't recommend this)
  in this case, the CCTV Camera's  need POE From a switch
  They have an internal SIM Card that must have a data plan (this is how they access the internet
  or... they can connect Wireless to your router (this is how they access the internet)
  
  so, no cables are required, but reliability will drop through the floor
  as for monitoring, you contact the manufacturer and ask for the software to connect to the camera's
  you download it from your app store and scan the QR Code
  
  so if your camera's don't have wires to the router you don't need a POE Switch
  HOWEVER... THEY WILL NEED TO BE POWERED BY THEIR OWN POWER SUPPLY that connects in the ceiling directly to them
  
  Otherwise, you are running cables that connect to the camera's and back to a POE Switch (which provides the power to the camera's)
  
  ALL PROBLEMS RESOLVED
  
  does all that make sense ?
  
  so.. Milling machine issue is basically solved
  the CCTV is the hairy part, because you are choosing (as many clients do , to their detrimony) the wireless option
  
  Always remember, THERE IS A GOOD REASON why professionals tell you to install cabling
  
  also out of curiosity
  Re those quotes (and it doesn't matter to me, I'm in sydney)
  but
  How many Camera's
  How many stories in your house
  is it Gyprock or Brick
  What sort of prices were you getting
  
  maybe i can help a little and give you advice to reduce those quotes
  
  Camera's are not cheap, but a few tips
  
  1. A CCTV Installer will always make money on every component
  say you have a 6 Camera setup
  Say you have a single storey house,  Gyprock
  the job is going to take half a day approx (if the guy says longer, then he isn't that experienced)
  
  so a typical quote in sydney might be , say ... $4.500
  Now you can reduce this by buying the camera's yourself
  you could knock that price down to around $1,500 or possibly less, some guys will even do it for $900
  so can you see what i'm saying ?
  
  the more you buy yourself the more you'll save
  if you know how to run cables, do that as well
  as for the terminations, you can just hire a guy to come in and do the terminations for you
  that might run you around $300
  
  so yeah.. Give me your thoughts
• #2 Reply
  Posted by BTO on 15 May, 2023 15:29
• Oh another quick point
  
  What is a "HUB "
  Hub is a word that was incorporated into the industry , basically by people who didn't know what they were talking about.
  
  Your network basics - Basic Network Devices from the highest form of life to the lowest
  
  let's start at a Server
  
  Server - Provides network services to client computers and devices
  Client - Anything connected to a server (usually a standard computer or a printer) Your Milling machine is A CLIENT MACHINE
  
  Now we get to Layer 3 networking - Routers, Modems
  Then we get to Layer 2 Networking - network Switches,
  Layer 1 is the physical layer - Patch Panels   (Panels that make a physical connection of the cable to a physical port)
  
  it's at this layer when people didn't know the actual name for them that they started saying in the 90s "I bought a hub"
  but it wasn't a hub, it was a patch panel  (Remember this , as i'll refer to it later)
  
  then when they had a server cabinet (but they didn't know the name) they also called that A HUB
  
  a Hub was a term that referred to ... The person doesn't know what they are talking about but they likely mean a patch panel or cabinet.
  
  Now these days... you have this thing called  HILLS HOME HUB  (hills figured they would capitalize on the bad habit)
  and you guessed it... this (ENCLOSURE) is the correct term,  has a patch panel  LOL,   so technically , you can SORT OF call it a hub
  but they then patented the name "HILLS HOME HUB" so now it's an industry term
  it's a term that started from a stupid incorrect habit, just to add to the confusion of it all
  
  THAT'S WHY WHEN YOU GOOGLE "HUB"  YOU GET CONFUSED
  
  don't google hub
  don't worry about it
  Just understand it simply
  
  
  Your milling machine goes into your LAN port on the router
  you computer that controls that also goes into a LAN port
  Your CCTV Camera's ...
  you need to figure out if you want wired or wireless
  if wired,  then you need a gigabit POE Switch
  if Wireless then you don't, and you just connect them to your router (assuming it has WiFi Capability)
  
  you don't need to know about a hub, it'll just confuse you
  ok
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• #3 Reply
  Posted by kjpye on 16 May, 2023 02:58
• Quote from: BTO on 15 May, 2023 15:29

  Oh another quick point
  
  What is a "HUB "
  Hub is a word that was incorporated into the industry , basically by people who didn't know what they were talking about.
  

  
  followed by a lot of misleading misinformation.
  
  A hub is a layer 2 device which contains no intelligence (like a switch has) but which just broadcasts every packet received on every other port.
  
  They were widely used in the early days of ethernet, but usually these days you'll use a switch instead, which sends incoming packets out to the relevant port only.
  
  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_hub for more information.