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So, a used Agilent DSO6014A or DSO6034A maybe the solution, if I could get one in good condition and for a reasonable price from german or european seller
If I where you I'd try and buy one of the DSO6000 I linked to a few posts earlier from Keysight's Ebay factory outlet. Yes, you can buy used scopes with a 30 day warranty from Keysight. Keysight is known to take reasonable best offers and shipping from Malaysia doesn't need to be expensive. The DSO6000 isn't the newest model but the 8Mpts memory is twice of what the modern Keysight scopes (2000/3000/4000 series) offer but otherwise the features are very close. IF you can stretch your budget I strongly advise to get the DSO6014 because it fits your requirements the best for the least amount of money."These can be hacked for decoding and MSO options."
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-mso-500060007000-anyone-hacked-these-scopes/
Can you give a link to more hacking info?
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Hello,
please someone give me advice for buying a 4/16ch MSO for maximum 1100 US$ (1000 EURO).
- no PC/USB type oscilloscope
- 70/100 MHz analog BW (upgradeability preferred)
- 4 analog channels (seperate knobs per channel preferred, not like LeCroy - one set of knobs for all channels)
- upgradeability "MSO ready" to 16 digital channels usable simultaneously to the 4 analog channels
- serial decoding (and triggering) for analog and digital channels (I²C, RS232, SPI, ...)
- maybe CAN decoding and triggering upgradability
- maybe USB/2/3decoding and triggering upgradability
- availability from european/german distributor (warranty)
I'd prefer devices, that can be bought in a cheaper "base" version, and upgraded later by software, and of course especially those, you can get working "hacks" for upgrading.
Because of maximum price of 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) I think, only chinese makers will be left over...
What do you think, is chinese stuff usable or just cheap crap that isn't worth the money?
A spreadsheet would work well here. You aren't going to get what you want for the price you want to pay. So, create rows of requirements, add a scaling factor for how important the feature might be and go from there.
If MSO is an absolute must have, why even discuss DSOs? If USB is a 50% requirement, give the feature some credit when comparing prices. In any event, make columns for every scope you want to consider and see what shakes out. Features would include: channels, bandwidth, knob/channel, memory size, decoding capability, cost of decoding, <whatever is important to you>
I certainly can't see buying an obsolete/discontinued Keysight 100 MHz DSO out of Malaysia when I can buy a 100 MHz Rigol for 1/3 the money and have 3 times the memory and all of the serial decode (when hacked).
Everybody has a favorite scope.
As to cost: If this is for a hobby, say so! If it is for a commercial/industrial application, requirements can be more rigid and costs can go higher.
I'm growing rather fond of my DS1054Z. It's my first, and probably my last, digital scope. I have the advantage of having a 350 MHz Tektronix 485 should I run out of bandwidth but that isn't likely. I wanted the decoding and it has been a treat. I also wanted 4 channels to deal with SPI and that works out well. All of the 'bugs' have been worked out except for a minor spelling error and they'll probably get that on the next upgrade.
It isn't really about the money, it's about how much to spend for my present level of interest in electronics. I don't do GHz stuff, most everything wiil be 50 MHz or less and often much less. I am currently looking at damped harmonic motion with a time base of 500ms/div. Pretty slow stuff. Or, I'll be looking at SPI at 10 MHz - it just depends on what I want to play with today.
Anyway, think it through carefully. There are a lot of scopes out there and all have pluses and minuses. Rank them by feature and price to see where they all stack up.
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The DSO6000 can also be hacked to have all the protocol decoding, MSO and many other options like power analysis. If you put the DSO6000 next to the Rigol 1000Z you'll notice there is no place to start comparing because the DSO6000 is in an entirely different league (starting with the 1024x768 screen). I have the DSO7000A which is mostly the same as the DSO6000 with a bigger screen + different form factor and it is a great scope to use. If you can get all that for around 1500 to 1600 euro it is a good deal for a daily use scope.
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A spreadsheet would work well here.
How?
The OP has given enough detail of his requirements to make a informed recommendation.Quote- no PC/USB type oscilloscope
- 70/100 MHz analog BW (upgradeability preferred)
- 4 analog channels (separate knobs per channel preferred, not like LeCroy - one set of knobs for all channels)
- upgradeability "MSO ready" to 16 digital channels usable simultaneously to the 4 analog channels
- serial decoding (and triggering) for analog and digital channels (I²C, RS232, SPI, ...)
- maybe CAN decoding and triggering upgradability
- maybe USB/2/3 decoding and triggering upgradability
- availability from european/german distributor (warranty)
Any manufacturer's website and instrument datasheet will show whether their product will meet his spec or not.
Simple. -
A spreadsheet would work well here.
How?
The OP has given enough detail of his requirements to make a informed recommendation.Quote- no PC/USB type oscilloscope
- 70/100 MHz analog BW (upgradeability preferred)
- 4 analog channels (separate knobs per channel preferred, not like LeCroy - one set of knobs for all channels)
- upgradeability "MSO ready" to 16 digital channels usable simultaneously to the 4 analog channels
- serial decoding (and triggering) for analog and digital channels (I²C, RS232, SPI, ...)
- maybe CAN decoding and triggering upgradability
- maybe USB/2/3 decoding and triggering upgradability
- availability from european/german distributor (warranty)
Any manufacturer's website and instrument datasheet will show whether their product will meet his spec or not.
Simple.
There are always tradeoffs. Given the shopping list of features, the budget doesn't look hopeful.
So, instead of just stating 'gotta haves', rank them by priority and then compare actual scopes versus features versus price. Everything is negotiable when it comes to money. Otherwise we would be discussing real high end scopes.
An example is the MSO option. For true mixed signal, it is required, no question about it. As a logic analyzer, well, a real logic analyzer may have much more sophisticated triggering. Dave did a video on the topic of MSO versus logic analyzer. How many times does true mixed signal come up in the hobby community? If this scope is for a hobby, maybe never.
So, if mixed signal is a real requirement, fine! If it is just a line on a wish list, well, maybe there are better alternatives. At the least, it shouldn't drive an unnecessary solution.
Does knob/channel REALLY matter? What difference if you have to tap the channel select button before using a common knob? Scopes are available both ways but does it REALLY matter? When it comes to money?
Is sample memory size a feature worth pricing? It would seem to me, as a new user of DSOs, that more memory is a good thing. But is it the kind of feature that is worth money? To me, yes!
Only the OP can put worth to features. I don't imagine I will ever do true mixed signal that I can't view on 4 analog channels. The OP might! I don't object to hitting the channel select button but the OP might. Or he might not if there is money involved. Think about real scope usage: I tend to use just one channel more than half the time. I might use another channel as a trigger but once it is set, I will probably turn that channel off. So, once I select the active channel, I will never do it again. It will simply be the only active channel.
There are probably a dozen candidate scopes to consider (if we blow off USB) and the prices will range from a few hundred to a couple of thousand. How to choose?
If USB is REALLY a requirement, none of the scopes discussed above need apply. But a USB sniffer might be handy!
I just don't see how people make decisions without reviewing a ton of facts.
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As the OP has offered a list, let's examine it.
BW, well 100 MHz is the most common starting level in an instrument like the OP wants.
4 channels, sure we don't use 4 very often, well most of us don't. Separate controls...hell yeah.
MSO "capable". This implies if needed in the future that the software AND HW options need to be available and user installable.
Decode....just another option. Can be added at any time.
CAN, included in many decode packages, but not all. The OP need check which protocols and triggering are included in ANY instrument option package. The full serial protocol triggering suite is standard in Siglent DSO's.
USB, as mentioned before it's very unlikely to be available at this BW level of scope.
Local distributor, implies a new purchase ? The OP is somewhat lucky as many manufacturers have a permanent presence in Germany.
Others might have a different spin on how to interpret the OP's requirement but I don't see any problems in meeting his needs. -
Thanks for all your replies!
No, USB and CAN decoding is not required, as I said just only "nice to have".
The scope will be used in my hobby lab, so my budged is limited.
1000 EURO was just a number in my head, maybe I have to increase.
It's a difficult decision which scope will fit my coming expectations...
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Thanks for all your replies!
No, USB and CAN decoding is not required, as I said just only "nice to have".
The scope will be used in my hobby lab, so my budged is limited.
1000 EURO was just a number in my head, maybe I have to increase.
It's a difficult decision which scope will fit my coming expectations...
You can't know what your future requirements will be. So, buy something and use it up! When it becomes inadequate, sell it and buy something else. In the meantime, you will have gained a lot of insight into which features work best for you.
There's an article "Choosing an Oscilloscope" in the October 2016 edition of Nuts and Volts magazine. I don't see where it blazes new territory but at least the main considerations are written down. No specific model comparisons.
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If you are close to Batronix or PLUG-IN Electronic go and have a test of what they have to offer.
http://www.siglenteu.com/howtobuy.aspx
Maybe Siglent's Hamburg office has demo units, give them a yell.
http://www.siglenteu.com/lxwms.aspx?id=1110 -
Others might have a different spin on how to interpret the OP's requirement but I don't see any problems in meeting his needs.
Siglent SDS2104X? 1800 EURO is nearly twice the money I wanted to spend.
Asking for a Demo model is a nice idea...
I really don't know much about Siglent...
Could you make a ranking list regarding make quality oft these makers?
1. Agilent/HP/Keysight
?. Siglent
?. BW Instek
?. Rigol
?. Owon
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List price on the website for a SDS2074X (70 MHz) is € 1099. I mentioned the promo much earlier in this thread, that is you'll get a BW upgrade free of charge to 100 MHz.Others might have a different spin on how to interpret the OP's requirement but I don't see any problems in meeting his needs.
Siglent SDS2104X? 1800 EURO is nearly twice the money I wanted to spend.
Asking for a Demo model is a nice idea...
http://www.siglenteu.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1195&T=2&tid=1QuoteI really don't know much about Siglent..
I've provided links for you to do your own research and make your own conclusions earlier in this thread.
All I'll do is provide you with any info you wish, you have to make the decision on what you want and how much you're happy to spend.
These threads as you probably know have the potential to turn into pissing competitions....this scopes better that that and so on.
Take your time to check out specs, print out a heap of datasheets, do the study and then come back with a preference/s for additional guidance IF you need any. -
Note that on the DSO/MSO6000 series, decodes are only available for units with 4 analogue channels, regardless of MSO or not.
Indeed which is why I only linked to 4 channel models.
You're right, my bad
Well, that removes the MSO6000 from the list of options then. -
Could you make a ranking list regarding make quality oft these makers?
1. Agilent/HP/Keysight
3. GW Instek
...
5. Rigol
6. Siglent
7. OWON
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Can we take anything you say with a grain of salt?Could you make a ranking list regarding make quality oft these makers?
1. Agilent/HP/Keysight
3. GW Instek
...
5. Rigol
6. Siglent
7. OWON
Not 5 minutes after you post this^^^ you post this in another thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/osciloscope-recommendation/msg1046794/#msg1046794QuoteIs there even a notable difference? Both offer cheap bargain basement gear with OK (Rigol) to good (Siglent) hardware quality which will be riddled with firmware bugs when it comes to market, and these bugs may or may not be fixed in subsequent years.
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I really like how these topics with theme "I'm not very advanced user and would like to buy something that would allow me to do basic things but I don't have much money" degrade to discussion how a $10000 scope is better than one you can buy for $350..
Yes we know. It better be. I know that Porsche 911 GT3 RS is a better car than Renault Clio Sport.. But one is 25000€ and other is 150000€.. that is six times more, and "normal " people buy a Clio AND the house for that kind of money... And that Clio Sport is actually too fast for an average driver anyways.. And way too much fun...
Everybody should stay on the topic...
He said sub 1000€ ..
That leaves used scopes and new Chinese ones..
I would personally buy Rigol DS1000Z series and be done with it... Or a other favourite chinese brand.
As somebody said nicely elsewhere, despite all hate, they will all show wiggly lines on the screen that you need for troubleshooting.. And decently at that.
All you need to make sure it has enough bandwidth..
And for doing any kind of protocol decoding, buy separate inexpensive USB device..
Reason: for protocol decoding you need BIG screen. Lots of data to look at.. Or get a used old professional protocol analyzer.. But only if you have time to make it work first..
My life experience showed me that logic of buying most expensive equipment because I MIGHT need it one day is very expensive and ineffective. I buy only things I need on a regular basis. Rest I borrow or rent,once in two years I need it.
Also, warranty is good thing.. Things happen.
And in few years, when you forget that you paid for it at all, so little it was, and if you realized you need new measurement capability, you can upgrade to something else..
Practice to keep an instrument for 20 years was something that was necessity.. It use to cost as much as a car, and like a car you wanted to last as long as you can to pay off..
Now, every year, something new comes out, new models, better features...
Of course if you need to troubleshoot something in microwave region, work on designing USB3 transceivers, or communicating via Multi-Gigabit SerDes you can't do that on entry level equipment..
For that you will need 100000€ easy... But then you are working on a project that will pay for it, right...
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Can we take anything you say with a grain of salt?Could you make a ranking list regarding make quality oft these makers?
1. Agilent/HP/Keysight
3. GW Instek
...
5. Rigol
6. Siglent
7. OWON
Salt, Sugar, soy Sauce, whatever you want. I'd stay away from the booze, though
QuoteNot 5 minutes after you post this^^^ you post this in another thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/osciloscope-recommendation/msg1046794/#msg1046794QuoteIs there even a notable difference? Both offer cheap bargain basement gear with OK (Rigol) to good (Siglent) hardware quality which will be riddled with firmware bugs when it comes to market, and these bugs may or may not be fixed in subsequent years.
Not sure where you see a contradiction. IMHO there isn't much difference between Rigol and Siglent (Siglent has been a bit better in hardware and worse in software than Rigol), but if you get hung up because I put Rigol on #5 and Siglent on #6 then that's not because I value Rigol higher than Siglent (I don't, really) but simply because 'R' comes before 'S' in the alphabet. I would however value OWON slightly below both Rigol and Siglent, but at the end of the day, the difference between all the B-brands is overall pretty marginal.
YMMV of course. -
I really like how these topics with theme "I'm not very advanced user and would like to buy something that would allow me to do basic things but I don't have much money" degrade to discussion how a $10000 scope is better than one you can buy for $350..
Maybe, but that isn't one of them.QuoteEverybody should stay on the topic...
He said sub 1000€ ..
Yeah, but he also said 70-100Mhz, 4ch, MSO, separate vertical controls and serial decode for CAN and USB1/2/3. Which is not possible within that budget.
Which leave two options:
- Cut down on the requirements and find something that fits in the budget
or
- Increase the budget to get something which at least satisfies the most important bit of the requirements.
I'm not sure why you apparently believe that only the first option is worth discussing.
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Yeah, but he also said 70-100Mhz, 4ch, MSO, separate vertical controls and serial decode for CAN and USB1/2/3. Which is not possible within that budget.
Which leave two options:
- Cut down on the requirements and find something that fits in the budget
or
- Increase the budget to get something which at least satisfies the most important bit of the requirements.
I'm not sure why you apparently believe that only the first option is worth discussing.
I see now the communication problem.. You are completely correct on all counts..
It isn't possible with that budget. I agree 100% but if :
1. If budget is hard limited (aka. I have only 1000€, and maybe 10% more, but that's it..) i have to either decide to :
a. Give up on some features.. to keep it in budget
b. Decide I can use simpler (and much cheaper scope ) and do serial decoding on a separate device, which together will add up to 1000€. It will not be elegant, but will give me the capabilities.. A sort of solution we were using long time ago when no MSO were widely available..
2. I actually (or my company) have plenty of money, and 1000€ was just a recommendation... Then I would do exactly as you would, and think as you are.. There is a hard spec, lets see how much we have to pay to get that.. Obviously, as little as possible, but actual sum is not a problem, just make a good deal..
So you and I don't disagree, I just thought he has a 1000€ hard limit, usually when people don't they don't write exact number.. They ask for something like "mid range" or something like that.
So my presumption, or point of view was that he has 1000 and only 1000€ to squeeze it as much as he can .. Your presumption or point of view is that he should find a way to get more money to get what he wanted... Neither are wrong.. Only he knows what his priorities are here..
Best regards ,
Siniša
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If it's for a company then time is money. Having integrated decode can easily pay for itself in saved time.
A used MSO60x4A, hacked for decode and MSO is likely to be the best bang for the buck you will get in this range.
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So you and I don't disagree, I just thought he has a 1000€ hard limit, usually when people don't they don't write exact number.. They ask for something like "mid range" or something like that.
Well, it seems the limit actually isn't that hard:1000 EURO was just a number in my head, maybe I have to increase.
I guess the real problem is that some monetary figure and a batch of top-level specs are hardly enough to make a sensible recommendation. Without knowing what the scope is going to be used for, and where the actual budget limit is, it's pretty much all guesswork. -
Couldn't agree more...So you and I don't disagree, I just thought he has a 1000€ hard limit, usually when people don't they don't write exact number.. They ask for something like "mid range" or something like that.
Well, it seems the limit actually isn't that hard:1000 EURO was just a number in my head, maybe I have to increase.
I guess the real problem is that some monetary figure and a batch of top-level specs are hardly enough to make a sensible recommendation. Without knowing what the scope is going to be used for, and where the actual budget limit is, it's pretty much all guesswork. -
I would personally buy Rigol DS1000Z series and be done with it...
Me too. It's going to be far more capable than you think, I don't see how anybody would regret buying one. People go on and on endlessly about "bugs" in the DS1054Z but in reality they're quite minor, in functions you never use, etc. The fact is that it shows wiggly lines on screen perfectly, and that's 99.9999% of what oscilloscopes are used for. Plus the bugs are fixed now in the latest firmware.
Of course there are better oscilloscopes out there. You're only paying $400 in a market where people pay $10,000. Most boys had posters of Ferraris and Lamborghinis on their bedroom walls but grew up to buy ordinary cars. Ordinary cars work, the DS1054Z works. The oscilloscope snobs in these forums need to get over themselves.
Would I personally buy an MSO? No. Knobs and dials on a device with a small screen and limited RAM is simply the wrong user interface for logic analysis. The extra money spent on an MSO would be better spent on a proper logic analyzer that connects to a PC. PCs have a mouse, a keyboard, a large screen, and virtually unlimited RAM.
Would I go second hand for my first oscilloscope? I dunno. There's a big risk of a hidden problem. If you're an old dog who's use to opening up old oscilloscopes and swapping parts then that's OK but are the people on here telling newbies to buy second hand 'scopes on eBay going to take responsibility if it doesn't work when it arrives? I doubt it. Me? I think it's bad advice. I prefer to tell newbies to get something with a manufacturer's warranty.
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but are the people on here telling newbies to buy second hand 'scopes on eBay going to take responsibility if it doesn't work when it arrives? I doubt it. Me? I think it's bad advice. I prefer to tell newbies to get something with a manufacturer's warranty.
I think you also missed the part 'Buying from Keysight's official factory outlet'. Keysight will answer questions about any type of equipment they made to their best ability so support is top notch. Besides that I'm quite sure extra warranty can be bought for a used DSO6000 series. -
I really don't know much about Siglent...
Trust me: you want to keep it that way. In general their firmware is riddled with bugs and some features have no practical use (checkbox feature). I bought a Siglent SDS2204 a couple of years ago but the scope turned out to be unuseable. The promised firmware updates fixed nothing or just didn't come. If you read the thread about the SDS2000X series (updated SDS2000) you'll see there are still many bugs and shortcomings (like Hires mode only working on 14kps record length). I ended up wasting a lot of money and in the end I sold the scope for scrap! The dealer didn't even want to take it back. -
Is there a 4 channel DSO6000 on 'Keysight's official factory outlet' for the stated budget? The ones you posted were $1500 and $2170 respectively.but are the people on here telling newbies to buy second hand 'scopes on eBay going to take responsibility if it doesn't work when it arrives? I doubt it. Me? I think it's bad advice. I prefer to tell newbies to get something with a manufacturer's warranty.
I think you also missed the part 'Buying from Keysight's official factory outlet'.I'm quite sure extra warranty can be bought for a used DSO6000 series.
And will probably cost more than a new DSO.