Author Topic: USA Cal Club: Round 2  (Read 248914 times)

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Online RandallMcRee

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #500 on: August 10, 2019, 04:17:43 pm »
Some measurements, zipped, labeled m1-m6...
For first three measurement runs my temperature logging was to a separate file, I then realized how horrible correlating that was with the gpib file and subsequently created a gpib script (thanks CatalinaWow really) to put all-in-one.
So for m4,m5,m6 the file line is <Date, Temperature, Humidity, R6581T, K2001 data>
In all cases K2001 is measuring USA Cal Club FX reference.

m1-m4: R6581T is measuring delta between my in-house LTZ reference and the FX reference. Btw it has never been temperature compensated, unlike the FX. FX is negative lead.

m5,m6: R6581T is measureing delta between Fluke731B and FX reference. FX is negative lead.

Temperature measurement using TI EVM sensor HDC1010.

Bitseeker,TiN: where/can we post to the xdevs site? If so, can we put instructions in the cal club instructions thread?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 04:22:47 pm by RandallMcRee »
 

Offline hwj-d

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #501 on: August 10, 2019, 05:17:44 pm »
...
It has turned into a very busy week at work and so does anybody mind if I don't touch the PX reference? My wife thinks that I am also working on her gardening projects all weekend. Sigh.  :'(
...

Yes. Me.

Is it so difficult to take at least once a measurement of the PX voltage and the two resistances, and to announce the three values here, yours Win10 chaotics?  :box:  :popcorn:  ;) ;D

I'm waiting for that, since I deliver it back ...
 

Online RandallMcRee

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #502 on: August 10, 2019, 06:18:58 pm »
...
It has turned into a very busy week at work and so does anybody mind if I don't touch the PX reference? My wife thinks that I am also working on her gardening projects all weekend. Sigh.  :'(
...

Yes. Me.

Is it so difficult to take at least once a measurement of the PX voltage and the two resistances, and to announce the three values here, yours Win10 chaotics?  :box:  :popcorn:  ;) ;D

I'm waiting for that, since I deliver it back ...

Ok, my panic has subsided and I will supply measurements on the R6581T and K2001, tomorrow.
 
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Offline rhb

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #503 on: August 10, 2019, 06:56:34 pm »
FWIW I have discovered what I think are serious EMI issues in my PX/FX ratio run in addition to Tempduino problems.  I'm still investigating.

I've got the initial analysis of the FX & PX runs done, though I want to recheck them.  I'll start a thread on the subject when they are ready.  Probably late today.

It doesn't take a lot of time to switch references.  The PX is much simpler to connect.  I was super paranoid because of the split supply requirement of the FX.  I must have checked everything 4-5 times before powering up the FX.
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #504 on: August 10, 2019, 09:15:40 pm »
Bitseeker,TiN: where/can we post to the xdevs site? If so, can we put instructions in the cal club instructions thread?

Yes, the tutorial section is on my to-do list to add. I'll do that as I port the guide over to PDF.
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Online RandallMcRee

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #505 on: August 13, 2019, 02:10:19 am »
I have sent the cal club package back to Vindoline.
I have posted all of my raw data and a bit of analysis to the xdevs ftp site per TiN's instructions. Thanks (no icon for gratitude!?  :wtf:)
See directory RandallMcRee and note that there is a ReadMe.txt file there to start with.

I made two charts, using Ulrich's Plotter....
 
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #506 on: August 13, 2019, 03:36:50 am »
Thanks (no icon for gratitude!?  :wtf:)

I guess the closest we currently have is  :-+
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Offline tomato

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #507 on: August 13, 2019, 04:37:02 am »
I made two charts, using Ulrich's Plotter....

Your plots would be easier to digest if you subtracted off the mean (or nominal value) and re-labelled the vertical axis in µV. 
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #508 on: August 14, 2019, 12:58:57 am »
After watching all of the logging problems I fired up my system and found myself in failure mode also.  Mine is based on NI GPIB-USB-HS, and after Windows update and NI driver updates it labels mine as "not  a genuine NI product" and refuses to play further.  So far in my research I have found that if I can load the NI 4882_1700f0.exe driver set all will be well, but NI has removed this and earlier versions from its servers "to assure the quality of GPIB data collection".  NI's solution for the problem is for me to buy a genuine NI product (Roughly $1000).  Even though on line reports indicate even buying from authorized NI distributors doesn't guarantee genuine.

I have been using EZGPIB, which requires a working set of 488 drivers.  I am now looking into other options including Python so I can use other low cost adapters.

In Round 1 I added a  TI HDC1010 temp and humidity sensor to the package.  I have logged many tens of hours using this sensor with no glitches.  I have discovered a problem with this sensor which may be why it has been dropped from the club.  In the delivered configuration the sensor is self heated by the microprocessor doing the conversion from the I2C serial interface of the sensor chip to USB resulting in a roughly 1.6 degree error.  I didn't notice this prior to donating the unit.  The board is designed to easily allow separating the sensor with a 5 wire cable.  After doing this modification mine it meets the "typical" specification of 0.2 C error.  On line you can find measurements on two sets of ten of the devices showing a distribution with a one sigma error of roughly 0.1C.  It may be worth resurrecting this device if debugging the Tempduino continues to be a problem.

 

Offline TiN

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #509 on: August 14, 2019, 01:51:08 am »
Now you see why I prefer using Raspberry Pi for data logging any day or night?
Unlike windows environment, you suffer only once (when learn how to setup scripts/logging) instead of every time MS "improves" and "optimizes" your experience.
YouTube | Metrology IRC Chat room | Let's share T&M documentation? Upload! No upload limits for firmwares, photos, files.
 
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #510 on: August 14, 2019, 04:32:27 am »
I've been lucky so far. GPIB has continued working on my laptop running Windows 10. However, I do plan on migrating to a standalone RPi or BeagleBone Black/Green logging setup. :-+
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Offline ArthurDent

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #511 on: August 19, 2019, 10:01:02 pm »
Package received in good condition.
 
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #512 on: August 20, 2019, 02:04:18 am »
I have managed to find some older drivers and am back in business, but working a longer term solution.
 

Offline hwj-d

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #513 on: August 20, 2019, 02:39:21 am »
I've been lucky so far. GPIB has continued working on my laptop running Windows 10. However, I do plan on migrating to a standalone RPi or BeagleBone Black/Green logging setup. :-+
Try out the itsy bitsy teenie weenie Pi Zero W   ;)
 

Offline ArthurDent

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #514 on: August 20, 2019, 03:40:54 am »
Everything is powered up and stabilizing overnight and I am using some good supplies to power everything. I have a cheap temp/humidity unit that seems to agree with the fancy one which gives me a little more confidence that those readings are correct.

I did check the resistors on the PX and I could compare them against my standard resistors that I believe to be pretty close. The oldest physically beat up 1K resistor that I have hasn’t been checked for calibration in 30 years but agrees with the much newer and nicer HP 1K. The two HP 10K resistors read exactly the same so I tend to believe them as well. Here are the initial readings I got. I’ll check them again later on.
LT1616       999.997 ohms                                     HP s/n40185  10,000.02 ohms
HP11103A   999.998 ohms                                     HP s/n40189  10,000.02 ohms
PX 1K         999.997 ohms (label 1000.02 ohms)     PX 10K             9,999.82 ohms (label 9,999.94 ohms)

The initial 7 volt reading from the PX was a little different than the label indicated but I found the sequence of numbers interesting and included a photo.
 
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Offline ArthurDent

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #515 on: August 27, 2019, 04:27:09 am »
The USA Cal Club package has been sent back. I didn’t get a chance to do everything I probably could have but got enough done and gathered enough information to keep me busy for some time.

I had ordered all the parts for the GPIB interface a couple of weeks ago so I assembled the bare board I received and got to the point where the LEDs seemed to indicate a handshake and I got a 4 line message on my laptop indicating that the board was recognized but not programmed.

On measuring the 10 volt output of the FX supply, I probably did it differently than most people would. I wired the FX supply in series opposed with my LTZ1000ACH 10 volt Dr. Frank supply so that if the output of the two supplies was equal, the voltage difference between them would be exactly zero. To measure the difference I used my 50+ year old HP419A null meter which can measure down to 3uV full scale. To see a short video of the 2 being compared, go to: https://youtu.be/wTGxBJNNhWc

Although I had no history on it, I believed my HP3457A was pretty close but that was more of a gut feeling than hard fact and I don’t know when it was calibrated last. Judging by the CALNUM it had been calibrated about 20 times. The resistance readings of my standard resistors seemed very close to what I expected and the voltage readings also seemed to agree with my 5.5 digit Fluke 8840 (what do you expect for $16 at a hamfest). The HP3457A and my LTZ1000ACH 10 volt supply had been powered for several months and the readings seemed to be a stable 10.00000 VDC with maybe a 1 for the last digit.

When I connected the two supplies and the null meter up the difference was far greater than I expected. What I discovered is that if I connected the HP3457A across my supply while it was still connected to measure the null, that the difference on the null meter was much less. The adjustment on my supply is a 30 turn 5K pot that is wired so that 1 turn is between 5-6uV and exactly 10 volts is close to half way. By adjusting the pot I could regain a null on the 3uV full scale range and at null my HP3457A read about 9.99996 occasionally up to 9.99997 volts. If I read the graph on the FX supply correctly at 24°C the output would be 9.9999585 to 9.9999600 volts.  This leads me to believe that my HP3457A is pretty close, or close enough so I don’t want to mess with the calibration. Apparently there is some small loading and/or leakage that affects the readings and where the 2 supplies agree that close with my HP3457A connected across my 10 volt supply, I assume that is pretty much the correct reading.
 
I decided to check the 2 supplies to see how they reacted to light loads and I knew mine could survive a direct short for some time because I designed the added transistor buffer within the opamp feedback loop to handle a direct short and also protect the opamp. With a 100K load both supplies dropped 1uV; at 10K, mine dropped 10uV, the club’s 20uv; and at 5K, mine dropped 20uV, the club’s 40uV so the output resistance of mine is less than the club’s but neither would be loaded like that in any testing situation. There may be some capacitive leakage from line powered devices causing part of the problem. Both my supply and the HP419A null meter can be run from internal batteries but the HP3457A is line operated and digging out 2 batteries and running the FX supply from batteries was more than I wanted to do. I’m satisfied that my HP3457A is reading close enough for my needs so unless I get a higher accuracy meter (which I don’t see in the budget) I’ll be satisfied with what I have now. 

More to follow later tomorrow.
 
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #516 on: August 27, 2019, 05:15:51 pm »
Sounds like your 3457A is spot on. I wouldn't have messed with it, either.
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Offline ArthurDent

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #517 on: August 27, 2019, 06:02:03 pm »
Sounds like your 3457A is spot on. I wouldn't have messed with it, either.

It should be right on, I paid $225 for it with the HP44491A scanner card!  8)
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #518 on: August 27, 2019, 08:41:25 pm »

What are the possible error sources when performing that kind of measurement -  bias current for the DMM, and any ground loop issues, plus thermals on all the connectors?  It seems very hard to wrestle with electrons at the microvolt level...

 

Offline Andreas

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #519 on: August 27, 2019, 09:25:08 pm »
What are the possible error sources when performing that kind of measurement

Hello,

additional it could also be some EMI effect (e.g. from a LED-Lamp, USB-cable, mobile phone or switchmode supply) nearby.

I had around 20-30uV "offset" between unbuffered and buffered output of my LTZ#3-LTZ#6 due to EMI.
After putting a 100 nF capacitor across the (capacitively decoupled) LTC2057 output the offset was within datasheet spec. (< 4uV)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/ultra-precision-reference-ltz1000/msg846835/#msg846835

I usually try to put all equipment used for a measurement on a common metal plate ground to reduce EMI effects.

with best regards

Andreas
 
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Offline rhb

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #520 on: August 28, 2019, 01:11:18 am »
If you don't have a spectrum analyzer and an LNA for it, get an SDR.  The RTLs are super cheap, but the extra 4 bits of the SDRplay RSP2 is worth the money IMO.  I have one and am quite impressed by it.

Turn on the MW & VHF broadcast filters and take a look at the spectrum below 500 KHz.  You are likely to be shocked at what you see with a 6" antenna or even *no* antenna.

Another option if you have a DSO with a good FFT such as the Instek GDS-2000E line, which can be hacked to enable the MDO-2000 spectrum analyzer option, is to make a small loop to stick on the end of a scope probe.  That will allow you to locate sources as a 1/4" loop is very insensitive.  I put 1/8" wire mesh over the openings on my PCs because of PSU noise they were emitting.

My next lab area is likely to be a full on Faraday cage.  And I live in the boonies.  LED lamps are a *huge* issue, even if you don't have any.
 
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Online RandallMcRee

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #521 on: September 13, 2019, 10:32:08 pm »
Who has the package?

What is happening?

Data! More data!
 
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Offline vindoline

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #522 on: September 13, 2019, 11:37:48 pm »
Arriving at CalMachine this weekend!
 

Offline CalMachine

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #523 on: September 14, 2019, 11:28:32 pm »
Arriving at CalMachine this weekend!

Everything arrived safely :)

I've taken some preliminary pictures and I am about to begin logging.

All your volts are belong to me
 
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Offline CalMachine

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Re: USA Cal Club: Round 2
« Reply #524 on: September 15, 2019, 01:06:42 pm »
Picture Directory: https://xdevs.com/datashort/USA_Cal_Club/Round2/CalMachine/Pictures/ 

Safe arrival of the USA Cal Club References  :-+


Reference Shot


Here is a snapshot of each meter's first measurement after the start of logging and applying power to the references.


All your volts are belong to me
 
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