Windows 11 is dying....

[PlainName]

I totally dislike the environment where I need to have a Google account to download and use apps, etc.

Unlike Linux Mint which I download and install and run anonymously and can download and run all sorts of software anonymously.  I am very satisfied with Mint which I have been using for over ten years now. I update what I want when I want. No forced updates. I totally control my computer.

I wish there was a similar environment for phones.

There is F-Droid, which is the non-Google store for dowloading apps. Some apps are better installed from there, even if they are on Play, because those versions don't have to pander to Google's advertising requirements.

You can install when you want - indeed, it is trivial to turn off the F-Droid app completely when not being actively used, but even left running it is your choice when or if to update. Further, you can roll back to previous versions of an app.

[soldar]

I strongly doubt that. It actually is the business model of Redhat: supply secure and manageable Linux for both server and workstation. But it ain't free.

I believe this is the business model for Linux Mint and lots of other software. They offer a free, unsupported, software for casual use and offer support for a price. Teamviewer and Anydesk come to mind.

[Cyclotron]

Most people don't use Windows through choice. I wonder how many Windows 11 users like it, or have even considered there might be an alternative?

Microsoft simply don't care about Windows any more. It's only around 10% of their revenue and will shrink in the future, as they invest more in data centres and AI. They don't have the same reward for investing in it as they used to. Windows has a monopoly over the desktop platform, so people aren't going to switch anytime soon. Microsoft are just going to keep running Windows into the ground by pumping it full of adware, data collection and AI in a bid to boost profits from their other sectors.

At first glance, this seems easy to agree with. I believe that this generalization was once absolutely true. But, I don't think it survives today as it may have in in the past.

At the companies I have worked for over the past 15 years, since macOS became an option, people have had a choice at work. That choice lands with Windows about the same amount of time as you see it depicted in the consumer market. Some even have chosen not to use Windows or macOS and instead use their phones or tablets. Those options and more are available. Over the last 6 years, I've seen virtual desktops as an option, so you can run whatever you like and use the corporate computer as a remote VM. In the past 10 years, I've worked at companies that have 10k users, 30 users, and now 5k users.  I also visit and talk to companies across the size spectrum.

Linux isn't an option because it isn't fleet manageable. Companies spend a lot of money trying to secure it as a server, and they are not going to try to do it on a desktop because it's not manageable.

I strongly doubt that. It actually is the business model of Redhat: supply secure and manageable Linux for both server and workstation. But it ain't free.

I am not sure what part you doubt, as it looks like you provided an example of my point. In the end, the manageability of a desktop platform comes down to cost. If committed, it could be done but as you said, "it ain't free".

I don't do MDM for a living (primary job), but I am very aware of it because it is directly in my domain of work: enterprise cybersecurity. I have previously deployed the two most popular ones, JAMF and MS Intune. These two MDM platforms and VMWare One dominate the market. For a number of reasons, I see VMware heading down around the time of Broadcom's purchase of the company.

Any given computer from any major seller can be purchased by enterprises pre-enrolled in MDM for both macOS and Windows. During my last MDM project, the end result was that the OEM shipped directly to the user. Upon boot, since it's already enrolled, the user signs in. The MDM platform then downloads and installs the required corporate software needed for the user's role. To my knowledge, only macOS and Windows are supported for this process (pre-enrollment).

A company that manages fleets must spend money to create and maintain the profiles of those fleets. These aren't easy. Users do not like their computers controlled, so a lot of work is done to try to balance the corporate security policy and user "comfort".

Can an enterprise deploy Linux Desktop? YES. Let me change the term " manageable " to "feasible", maybe? There is only one company I know of that has significant use of Linux on desktops, and that's Google. It's been years since I was under an NDA with them, so it's likely changed a lot.

Edit:
I also meant to mention that the ability to use Linux or similar environments is available on both macOS (NIX native) and Windows (WSL), and remains very manageable in pre-enrollment and MDM. In particular, WSL took much of the wind out of the sails for the Linux desktop "need," and most people in enterprises that offer macOS will simply go with it if they are avoiding Windows.

[madires]

However - I do admit to this (and I'm not sure if these are emotions) : astonishment and disappointment. Astonishment at the strength of feelings expressed in this thread, and disappointment at the level of prejudice and dogmatism. Discussions around Windows vs Linux take on a religious fervour - which I say is totally ridiculous.

Back then it was Amiga vs. ST.

[SteveThackery]

Windows diehard guys can spew all bullshit they want on threads like this. It doesn't matter, because the trend is very clear.

I don't think we've got any "Windows diehard guys" on this thread, have we? I think Windows diehards are a rare thing, because it doesn't warrant that kind of passion. It's just an OS, not a religion.

Two decades ago windows gurus just laughed at linux. Not anymore.

No they didn’t! Two decades ago Ballmer was ranting about Linux being a "cancer"! Nobody laughed at it*: it was seen as a threat.

I've been harangued for "projecting" anger onto others, but honestly I don't think that's true. Check out this sentence:

"Windows supporters can say what they like on threads like this."
"Windows diehard guys can spew all bullshit they want on threads like this."

Which sentence is portraying strong emotions? Which sentence uses "spew all bullshit" instead of "say"?

Correct! @tatel's sentence. I'm not projecting - there is real anger here.


*EDIT: I take Cyclotron's point about the professionals laughing at both of them; I was thinking about Microsoft and the world of Windows.

[SteveThackery]

After all, have you tried using an Android phone or tablet without entering your Google account details?

I have an Android phone. I never do anything that requires any Google account on it.
Of course, that's because I only use it as a phone (phone & texting).
I may have had to set one up when I bought it (can't remember), but now it's nothing but an unused vestige.

Well it's hardly a good or representative example, is it! 😄  I wonder why you didn't just buy a.... what are they called - a feature phone?

[madires]

Linux, by CVE count, is the most vulnerable platform on the planet, yet fanboys insist it's more secure. When confronted with that fact, they will say it's because open source allows more CVEs, but then provide no evidence.

That would be very good news to me. It would mean Linux has become mainstream. However that statement doesn't ring true to me, please see what the answer about "the most compromised OS" i got from Google, following your suggestion.

You do realise that Google answers are AI generated and could be right or very wrong, and you have no idea which (otherwise you wouldn't be asking)? You need to stop with the asking Google and then believing it as gospel.

Seriously, who is best placed to know this: the actual CVE compilers with the actual data, or Google via some copypasta pattern matching?

Further, you haven't even twigged that the answer Google gave you is to a different question than the relevant to the above? Sure, Windows has the most attacks because most PCs are Windows. But the question was how many CVEs, not how many times something was attacked.

Please don't take CVE numbers too serious as they come with some caveats. Each CVE has a score which has to be considered. Some CVEs are blatant marketing for the security industry (we have x CVEs). Typically they look for low hanging fruits, i.e. open source, to boost their CVE count.

[paulca]

Linux, by CVE count, is the most vulnerable platform on the planet, yet fanboys insist it's more secure. When confronted with that fact, they will say it's because open source allows more CVEs, but then provide no evidence.

That would be very good news to me. It would mean Linux has become mainstream. However that statement doesn't ring true to me, please see what the answer about "the most compromised OS" i got from Google, following your suggestion.

You do realise that Google answers are AI generated and could be right or very wrong, and you have no idea which (otherwise you wouldn't be asking)? You need to stop with the asking Google and then believing it as gospel.

Seriously, who is best placed to know this: the actual CVE compilers with the actual data, or Google via some copypasta pattern matching?

Further, you haven't even twigged that the answer Google gave you is to a different question than the relevant to the above? Sure, Windows has the most attacks because most PCs are Windows. But the question was how many CVEs, not how many times something was attacked.

Please don't take CVE numbers too serious as they come with some caveats. Each CVE has a score which has to be considered. Some CVEs are blatant marketing for the security industry (we have x CVEs). Typically they look for low hanging fruits, i.e. open source, to boost their CVE count.

I agree.  "Counting" CVEs is not going to give you the indicator you think it will.  For example you will see many widely used components with histories like:

Monday V1.0.1  - CVE12345
Tuesday V1.0.2 - CVE12348
Wed.... another CVE Thurs.... another

They can regenerate 3 or 4 new CVEs while fixing the previous one.  Secure code is hard.  Especially when it's open source.

This is not a sign of a badly insecure package.

A sign of a badly insecure package looks like:

2022 -  CVE12345, CVE12324
... nothing....  even if one or both are "high ranked" critical.

If you simple count the number of CVEs the first component might look far worse, which is the opposite of the reality.  "High profile" components, field a LOT of security researchers trying to see if they can break them.  This generates CVEs, but they get fixed in hours or days.

Counting "Active" CVEs by aggregate ranking/criticality after individual components and then grouping those components to OS's might get you something better, but there is effort in that, so while I'm sure the data exists and the analysis has been done, it will likely cost you to access it... or hope a researchers publishes it on the Register.

[Cyclotron]

I've attempted to convey that Linux, like macOS, is no more secure than Windows.

Claiming Linux is superior to Windows can only be a subjective call.

I remain convinced that Linux won't be in general use on corporate desktops.
You can run any of these OSs securely. If you enable secure boot, run good secure software.

[Siwastaja]

I remain convinced that Linux won't be in general use on corporate desktops.

Indeed Windows has "always had" huge market share there and continue to do so. With the exception of Apple being relevant in media/film/photography/news sector of things.

However do note that when we look at all the freelancers hired by those corporations to get something actually done (which they hate to publicly admit, and as such not very well known, but it's really a HUGE thing, much larger phenomenon many here can even imagine), then the choice of operating system varies wildly. I would even dare to say it's like 33% - 33% - 33% Windows - Mac - Linux. Their self-maintained computers, their own choice - they are most productive with that. I'm an example of one such freelancer using Linux and know some others. I also know people using Mac and even Windows. All are happy with their choices. Each have different strong points. If you try to force these people into a certain OS - or certain working hours - or certain process (e.g. ticket system or whatever), their productivity plummets. Possibly by 10x or so! There is a reason why they remain freelancers - and a reason why corporations need to hire them to get work done.

[Randy222]

I've attempted to convey that Linux, like macOS, is no more secure than Windows.

Claiming Linux is superior to Windows can only be a subjective call.

I remain convinced that Linux won't be in general use on corporate desktops.
You can run any of these OSs securely. If you enable secure boot, run good secure software.

SElinux vs Win11?

Win11 has at best UAC (which is legacy, now it's WAP) and Defender.

Win11 is far cry from security vs SElinux.

[paulca]

As an aside.  With work moving to Mac my life has been Windows free for a few weeks, except for the gaming machine I use a few hours a day at most.... thats now directly insight for Linux conversion too.  Maybe, maybe not with a "root virtualiser" boot.  As long as I can allocate the 3080 to a single VM...if I install a "boot GPU" $30 card.

It feels good... slightly tainted by Apple, but I am so bubble wrapped up in corporate VPNs and OSS tooling I see little of that.

[SteveThackery]

I'm looking forward to finding a collection of really good* Linux applications so I can move to Mint and leave Windows behind.  For me there is no rush because Start11 has transformed W11 and removed most of the annoyances, but I can imagine the creeping AI integration will bug me too much in the end.

I've found a great office suite - SoftMaker - and paid for a licence, but the rest isn't so easy, sadly. I can live with KiCAD, but FreeCAD isn't easy to live with and I haven't found a photo editor I like. There's loads of other bits and bobs I need to sort out, too. It's a damn shame Visual Studio and Delphi don't run on Linux because I love them both for Arduino and Windows development respectively.

*For me, "good" Linux apps are ones with a clean, elegant, modern UI; a smooth learning curve; a simple and logical workflow; intuitive and rewarding to use. I want to enjoy using them - that is very important to me. These are all subjective, of course, but they matter to me and the difficulty of finding such apps is the main thing keeping me on Windows.

[tatel]

Glad you have good news, I guess? Here's your trophy, most CVEs. Yay.

@Cyclotron:I really hope, you are saying all this shit -which i won't even quote- in bad faith, anger and desperation.

@SteveThackery: wink wink, is that post what you were speaking about? That's the definition of spewing if you ask me, but please note I'm not a native english speaker, so i could be missing some nuance... but i don't think so... It seems, there is at least some diehard windows user here after all. I'm calling this bullshit because it is bullshit.

@Cyclotron: Otherwise I would have to asses a fellow forum member  is mentally ill, and since you are experiencing regularly broken updates, stated that linux is a bad ecosystem to do fleet management, challenged us to ask google about "the most compromised OS" and got, not the answer you were guaranteeing we would get, but just the contrary, your statements being invariably debunked, and so on, and on, and on, since the first reply in this thread... just let me say, at this time, you can't be taken seriously anymore.

 

As previously said, anything windows diehards could say, doesn't matter. Windows is going south anyway, faster and faster at every new release, and  i just don't care. Please have another look at the video linked in the OP. Enjoy.
 

[Monkeh]

Please have another look at the video linked in the OP. Enjoy.

The video in the OP is a bunch of LLM hallucinated crap looking to make a quick buck on Youtube out of people's discontent with the direction of Windows.

[SteveThackery]

As previously said, anything windows diehards could say, doesn't matter.

And as I previously said, I don't believe we have any Windows diehards on this thread, do we? In my opinion neither Windows nor Linux warrant the religious fervour that diehards indulge themselves in.

[asmi]

And as I previously said, I don't believe we have any Windows diehards on this thread, do we? In my opinion neither Windows nor Linux warrant the religious fervour that diehards indulge themselves in.

I think it's a classic projection.  Linux diehards see diehards in anyone who even sightly disagrees with their religion.

[Randy222]

There are numerous items that convert the OS gui back to something else, like Win7. Start11 is just one of many.

It's kinda odd though, can we not learn the new ways and new shortcuts to do the same? Even gnome and kde get updating where people like the old ways.

[asmi]

There are numerous items that convert the OS gui back to something else, like Win7. Start11 is just one of many.

It's kinda odd though, can we not learn the new ways and new shortcuts to do the same? Even gnome and kde get updating where people like the old ways.

I guess it depends on how different people use OS. I can speak for myself - I use OS as a launcher for applications, and 99.(9)% of my time is spent there, and not with anything related to the actual OS. And that's pretty much the same as how I use Linux. The only time I notice OS I'm working in is when it comes to different behavior of windows manager (I really like windows snapping in Win 11, that's a big improvement over Win 10). Or when I need to do OS maintenance. So as long as OS doesn't stand in a way of my applications, and maintenance does not create too many headaches, I'm happy with it. My Linux machine is still running Ubuntu 20 LTS, I tried upgrading it to 22 but it didn't work for some reason, and I never found enough time to figure out why or to do a fresh reinstall, but since it does what I need it to do (run my apps), I don't see any urgency to do anything about it. One humorous issue with my Linux install is that their appstore always fails trying to update itself

[Cyclotron]

Glad you have good news, I guess? Here's your trophy, most CVEs. Yay.

@Cyclotron:I really hope, you are saying all this shit -which i won't even quote- in bad faith, anger and desperation.

@SteveThackery: wink wink, is that post what you were speaking about? That's the definition of spewing if you ask me, but please note I'm not a native english speaker, so i could be missing some nuance... but i don't think so... It seems, there is at least some diehard windows user here after all. I'm calling this bullshit because it is bullshit.

@Cyclotron: Otherwise I would have to asses a fellow forum member  is mentally ill, and since you are experiencing regularly broken updates, stated that linux is a bad ecosystem to do fleet management, challenged us to ask google about "the most compromised OS" and got, not the answer you were guaranteeing we would get, but just the contrary, your statements being invariably debunked, and so on, and on, and on, since the first reply in this thread... just let me say, at this time, you can't be taken seriously anymore.

 

As previously said, anything windows diehards could say, doesn't matter. Windows is going south anyway, faster and faster at every new release, and  i just don't care. Please have another look at the video linked in the OP. Enjoy.

@tatel On the contrary, I think you're amusing. The hate you exude for an OS is fascinating. Weird, but fascinating.
Calling me names or anyone else isn't going to change anything about the facts.

Linux: With 32 years of adoption, it is a primary target for ransomware and malware, particularly in cloud and server environments.
Android, another Linux OS, is by far the most malware-infested mobile platform. That's not Apple's marketing; that's a fact.
It's a myth that open source means all bugs are shallow.

I don't use Windows as my primary OS. But I can have a solid conversation about the pros and cons of all OSs.
If all you do is use a browser, you can do that on an Android tablet and still feel good about yourself running a Linux OS.
 

[Analog Kid]

After all, have you tried using an Android phone or tablet without entering your Google account details?

I have an Android phone. I never do anything that requires any Google account on it.
Of course, that's because I only use it as a phone (phone & texting).
I may have had to set one up when I bought it (can't remember), but now it's nothing but an unused vestige.

Well it's hardly a good or representative example, is it! 😄  I wonder why you didn't just buy a.... what are they called - a feature phone?

What, pray tell, is a "feature phone"?

My current phone was/is about as cheap as one can get phone service for these days.
Phone itself cost something like $25, and I pay $15 a month for the privilege of using it.
I defy anyone to find anything cheaper.

And I simply don't use the other "features" of the phone (like web browsing).
Well, maybe very rarely if I need to look something up while on the road.
Or take a picture (w/shitty camera) if I don't have my "real" camera with me.
But other than that, just phone calls and text messages.

[Cyclotron]

And as I previously said, I don't believe we have any Windows diehards on this thread, do we? In my opinion neither Windows nor Linux warrant the religious fervour that diehards indulge themselves in.

I think it's a classic projection.  Linux diehards see diehards in anyone who even sightly disagrees with their religion.

I guess I someone repeated this in my observations of the posts and behavior before I read the whole set of replies. Color mine redundant and less insightful than this one.

I said it in the thread. If I had to pick one OS I would avoid, I think it might be AIX. But I think that was mostly due to lack of regular exposure/inexperience.
A thread and discussion about what OSs are "superior" would be interesting. I think there are good fits for many tasks, but a generalized single superior OS doesn't exist in my opinion.

[Analog Kid]

@SteveThackery: wink wink, is that post what you were speaking about? That's the definition of spewing if you ask me, but please note I'm not a native english speaker, so i could be missing some nuance... but i don't think so... It seems, there is at least some diehard windows user here after all. I'm calling this bullshit because it is bullshit.

Speaking only for myself here, I'd describe myself as a satisfied Windows user.
But don't get me wrong, certainly not a diehard Windows user nor a fanboi.

And it's because I use an obsolete version, Windows 7. I love that it no longer phones home or asks for upgrades--indeed, it cannot be upgraded. Which is fine with me.

I'm careful what I do, so my security needs are minimal: I'm not promiscuous with email or web usage.
My "real" email account (i.e., accessed through a SMTP client instead of the web) gets zero spam.
My other email account (web-based) gets only minimal spam. Quite manageable.

Windows Defender wards off any evil spells that might come my way.

[SteveThackery]

There are numerous items that convert the OS gui back to something else, like Win7. Start11 is just one of many.

It's kinda odd though, can we not learn the new ways and new shortcuts to do the same? Even gnome and kde get updating where people like the old ways.

(My bolding)

For me it is definitely NOT about going backwards, or converting anything back to what went before. Stardock Start11 offers seven different layouts for the Start menu. Four of those are "improved" or "updated" versions of the W11 menu, and there's a couple of menus based on W7 and an improved W10 version. On top of that, each of the seven choices is further customisable. So the choice and level of control is exceptional.

The "Windows Pro" style is my favourite, and it is not in any sense a throwback to a previous version of the Start menu: it is unique and - for me - is better than any current or past Windows Start menu.

I also want to emphasise that this is not about resistance to change, as @Randy222 seems to suggest. I have happily learned and embraced every version of Windows since V3.1. No, it is simply that I like the Start11 "Windows Pro" menu more than the standard W11 menu.

Plus, most of the "adverts" nonsense is completely wiped out. Excellent!

[Randy222]

There's probably a reason why MS does not build in a skin framework for gui. Support.
Try calling MS support when you have Stardock theme installed. MS not gonna be of much help because they are expecting their Win11 gui. And, MS will probably just say the Stardock install is the problem to your Wifi issue.... 

Different realms for different folks.