Are expensive soldering stations really worth it?

[galileo]

Look at what repair technicians use, for example Louis Rossmann (search on youtube if you haven't seen his channel) uses a Hakko FX-951 (T12 cartridge) while some of his employees prefer JBC.
No contest considering the price difference. His use case is pretty close to yours as all they do is Mac repairs and those multilayer boards sink heat like mad.

Ok so is the consensus here cartridge tips, even low end ones like the T12 clones, always perform better than separate heater and tip? I don't care about startup time, only the ability to do big joints without high temperature.

[Shock]

Look at what repair technicians use, for example Louis Rossmann (search on youtube if you haven't seen his channel) uses a Hakko FX-951 (T12 cartridge) while some of his employees prefer JBC.
No contest considering the price difference. His use case is pretty close to yours as all they do is Mac repairs and those multilayer boards sink heat like mad.

Don't encourage people to buy a Hakko FX-951 without checking out the Pace ADS200 (120W) it's better value and without the quirks of Hakko stations. Paces new aluminum handpiece is about the best thing going at the moment and have just released their new mini tweezers.

[galileo]

Not in the price range of most hobbyists while Hakko clones are fairly affordable. 

Don't encourage people to buy a Hakko FX-951 without checking out the Pace ADS200 (120W) it's better value and without the quirks of Hakko stations. Paces new aluminum handpiece is about the best thing going at the moment and have just released their new mini tweezers.

[KaneTW]

A ADS200 is like $300. That's not very expensive imo.

[galileo]

Expensive is a relative term: 1/10th of minimum wage in CH VS more than 1/2 in most of SE Europe.

[Shock]

Living expenses are relative as well. I suggest if you are in poverty to avoid electronics unless you use it to earn an income. If you aren't in poverty and can save up money, life works exactly the same for the rest of us.

[OwO]

Those are induction heater irons, something like a temperature controlled Metcal but at a much lower frequency and no curie point tips.

Ok that makes sense now. The tip fits very loosely but it does heat up fast.

It's a 160W station and I can get close to the power limit when soldering big copper plates, so it looks like T12 wouldn't have done the job.

I'm not convinced that the more expensive cartridge based stations offer much improvement over this, so for now I'll conclude that around $50 is the sweet spot for soldering stations if you spend the effort finding the right one (in china at least).

In the future if I need more thermal performance I'll look for induction heating soldering stations using tips with a bigger stem diameter, as this is the final bottleneck to thermal conduction. There is probably good reason all the soldering stations marketed for "high rate" use (production use) here are now all induction based.

[Shock]

It sounds like you have a Quick, Bakon or Yihua if it takes 500M tips, but you haven't told us which model and where you brought it from. All we know is it's ~50C out of calibration and has a 70mm working distance.

How fast does yours heat from a totally cold tip? If it's anything like the Yihua 950 it seems designed for soldering large joints and not fine SMD work or dual purpose. This video shows heating taking 28 seconds.

[OwO]

This one: https://item.jd.com/51024494922.html#crumb-wrap
I just timed it at exactly 20 seconds from cold.

It depends on the tip you use; I prefer the "sanded conical tip" for SMD soldering because it can get right to the edge of QFNs and also transfer heat quickly to ground planes (I can't usually do thermal relief on my boards):


For soldering SMA connectors I use this one:


I've found it works well for "drag soldering" as well if you place the edge of the tip across all QFP pins and drag outwards. Removes bridges really easily.

[Shock]

This one: https://item.jd.com/51024494922.html#crumb-wrap
I just timed it at exactly 20 seconds from cold.

The working distance is 94mm according to their own photo. Better value than T12 clones and looks more suitable for high thermal mass work. Has a stand and real transformer which is a bonus, hopefully it's safer.

It's not going to be better for fine SMD than the T12. The tip swapping, selection of tips and working distance on this station are its weaknesses. I've seen similar tips before on something like a Weller PES51, can't remember which exact model.

[all_repair]

https://m.tb.cn/h.V3SzosI?sm=8fad6e
I have one of this as well as a Quick205, so far no chance to stress test them.

[madires]

When discussing a soldering station's temperature overshoot we should consider the complete picture, and not just the iron's tip. There's also the thermal mass of the PCB (pad/track/plane and PCB itself), component and solder. From my experience I'd say that some overshoot helps with soldering, especially when the heat is sucked away by the PCB or a large component, e.g. metal connector.

[wraper]

This one: https://item.jd.com/51024494922.html#crumb-wrap
I just timed it at exactly 20 seconds from cold.

It depends on the tip you use; I prefer the "sanded conical tip" for SMD soldering because it can get right to the edge of QFNs and also transfer heat quickly to ground planes (I can't usually do thermal relief on my boards):
(Attachment Link)

For soldering SMA connectors I use this one:
(Attachment Link)

I've found it works well for "drag soldering" as well if you place the edge of the tip across all QFP pins and drag outwards. Removes bridges really easily.

I don't think whats's on the display is the real tip temperature, especially during heat-up. Also Zhaoxin is a company producing a lot of crap. For example linear PSUs which contain fake 2N3055 transistors with tiny die.

[OwO]

So I discovered I can get it to display sensed temperature by quickly switching to a lower temperature, and doing that I see 20C of overshoot on startup. There doesn't seem to be an overshoot after a big soldering though, and it seems to use some form of proportional-derivative control, because I can see it reduce power a few seconds before the temperature has fully returned to set temperature.

As for working distance, I'm gripping it at the second nut to get shorter working distance as that part doesn't get warm (the first nut does get hot so I can't grip it there).

[tooki]

Not in the price range of most hobbyists while Hakko clones are fairly affordable. 

Don't encourage people to buy a Hakko FX-951 without checking out the Pace ADS200 (120W) it's better value and without the quirks of Hakko stations. Paces new aluminum handpiece is about the best thing going at the moment and have just released their new mini tweezers.

He wasn't recommending it as an alternative to the Hakko clones, he was recommending it as an alternative to the real FX-951. And compared to that, the ADS200 is killer.

Expensive is a relative term: 1/10th of minimum wage in CH VS more than 1/2 in most of SE Europe.

While your point is true (though obvious), just as an FYI, Switzerland does not actually have a minimum wage.

[Shock]

As for working distance, I'm gripping it at the second nut to get shorter working distance as that part doesn't get warm (the first nut does get hot so I can't grip it there).

Just because you hold it by the nut it doesn't shave 24mm off the working distance heheh, but I think you already know that.

It's a $50 clone of a $250 unit, and even that $250 is Chinese $250. For that kind of bang for the buck, what is there to complain?

It's $200 cheaper than itself, it defies the laws of accounting! That is a saving of 400% of profit right there.

[Shock]

If they had released these a year ago, I would own a set.  I am REALLY happy that I picked up the older style.  I find myself using them a fair amount.

One advantage of the older handpieces is it's easier to play Pokemon and get bunch of tips together cheaply on ebay. Or you could just do what Mike does and collect stations instead.

[tooki]

But interestingly, the tips for that station are way more expensive than the cartridge tips for the ADS200!!
Edit: never mind! There was no indication anywhere I had looked that the prices were for 5-packs! That takes them from expensive to positively cheap!

Admittedly, that thing is hella cool. The dremel with continuity tester through the tip to apply the brake when you hit the trace you’re digging out, that’s just neat.

[Shock]

But interestingly, the tips for that station are way more expensive than the cartridge tips for the ADS200!!

Many of the PS90 style soldering tips and SX80/90/100 vacuum desoldering tips come in packs of 5 so if you look for a good price they work out to be typically around $5-8 each. On Paces part numbers they have -P1 and -P5 which tells you if it's a single or a 5 pack.

Some of the less common rework tips and nozzles are going to be more expensive than others but they also sell a vacuum desoldering tip sample kit 6993-0288-P1 of 8 tips for around $60. Since Pace vacuum desoldering tips are a one piece design, even if you had an impossible blockage you can just swap to another tip. So in the scheme of things not expensive to run for all the basic tips.

Admittedly, that thing is hella cool. The dremel with continuity tester through the tip to apply the brake when you hit the trace you’re digging out, that’s just neat.

I admire anyone with the courage to fully set one up with all the 9 handpieces and a complete range of tips for home use. The divorce is strong in this one.

[tooki]

But interestingly, the tips for that station are way more expensive than the cartridge tips for the ADS200!!

Many of the PS90 style soldering tips and SX80/90/100 vacuum desoldering tips come in packs of 5 so if you look for a good price they work out to be typically around $5-8 each. On Paces part numbers they have -P1 and -P5 which tells you if it's a single or a 5 pack.

OH! I had no idea! I was looking on tequipment, and nowhere do they (or the datasheets!!) mention that they’re in 5-packs! That indeed completely changes the equation!!!! Cause I thought $35 for a simple chisel tip was outrageous, but for 5 it’s peanuts!!

Some of the less common rework tips and nozzles are going to be more expensive than others but they also sell a vacuum desoldering tip sample kit 6993-0288-P1 of 8 tips for around $60. Since Pace vacuum desoldering tips are a one piece design, even if you had an impossible blockage you can just swap to another tip. So in the scheme of things not expensive to run for all the basic tips.

Yeah that makes sense!!

Admittedly, that thing is hella cool. The dremel with continuity tester through the tip to apply the brake when you hit the trace you’re digging out, that’s just neat.

I admire anyone with the courage to fully set one up with all the 9 handpieces and a complete range of tips for home use. The divorce is strong in this one.

Heheheheh. Never mind having six of them!

But yeah, if those things really can be had for a few hundred bucks used, then it’s a steal.

[all_repair]

I think I didn't make myself clear earlier.  Your Lab iron that has good temperature control should do more than soldering.   Swordmanship counts more than the sword.

[KL27x]

I don't think whats's on the display is the real tip temperature, especially during heat-up.

Of course it is. The stations that fake this, they smoothly roll up to the set temp in 10 seconds, not 20. 

They won't be affected by the tip type, either.

I had an X-tronic station that did this. After the display hits the set temp, wait another 10 seconds, and you're there.

[galileo]

So in the "first world" country after all your monthly expenses you are left with $300 and you buy a Pace. Meanwhile in the "third world" you are left with $30 and you save for 10 months to buy a Pace or you
go on AliExpress and buy a fake Hakko?

Electronics is not for the poor, right on.

Living expenses are relative as well. I suggest if you are in poverty to avoid electronics unless you use it to earn an income. If you aren't in poverty and can save up money, life works exactly the same for the rest of us.

[KL27x]

The irony is that in the US, we can buy a real Hakko 888 for $120 delivered, all day, every day. Genuine tips for $5.00. Way better in many (not all) ways than any T12 clone I have ever used.

For construction/fabrication tools, we also have Harbor Freight. You have no idea what a $20.00 bill can be traded for at Harbor Freight.

[ebastler]

You have no idea what a $20.00 bill can be traded for at Harbor Freight.

As long as you do it quickly, so you survive the toxic smell.