Are expensive soldering stations really worth it?

[thm_w]

https://m.tb.cn/h.V3SzosI?sm=8fad6e
I have one of this as well as a Quick205, so far no chance to stress test them.

omg that video, dude heats up the iron then grabs the tip with his bare hand, sets the iron to 822 C and it turns red hot, then attaches an absolutely massive T12 tip   

[galileo]

Try the "bolt test", if it passes you are golden 


T12 cartridge is around 70W (if I remember correctly) so it probably would not be as powerful as that one. Keep in mind that it is not
actually delivering 160W into the work piece. Lower frequency (KHz range) RF heating is not that efficient. One of the reasons why that metcal in the linked video
solders a bolt with "only" 40W. They are heating the tip with 13.5MHz. Metcal patents are an interesting read, they claim something like 90% efficiency.

If you don't mind the fairly large "tip to handle" distance it will probably be all you will ever need.
When soldering copper sheets (for enclosures etc) I just use a 220V AC "rain gutters" iron 

Those are induction heater irons, something like a temperature controlled Metcal but at a much lower frequency and no curie point tips.

Ok that makes sense now. The tip fits very loosely but it does heat up fast.

It's a 160W station and I can get close to the power limit when soldering big copper plates, so it looks like T12 wouldn't have done the job.

I'm not convinced that the more expensive cartridge based stations offer much improvement over this, so for now I'll conclude that around $50 is the sweet spot for soldering stations if you spend the effort finding the right one (in china at least).

In the future if I need more thermal performance I'll look for induction heating soldering stations using tips with a bigger stem diameter, as this is the final bottleneck to thermal conduction. There is probably good reason all the soldering stations marketed for "high rate" use (production use) here are now all induction based.

[galileo]

Hakko is not a very well known brand in Europe and quite a bit more expensive than in USA.
Funny thing: most people around these parts have newer heard of Hakko and when mentioned most think
that it is some Chinese brand but 90% of them use Hakko clones 

What did you find about T12 clones that was inferior compared to Hakko 888?

The irony is that in the US, we can buy a real Hakko 888 for $120 delivered, all day, every day. Genuine tips for $5.00. Way better in many (not all) ways than any T12 clone I have ever used.

For construction/fabrication tools, we also have Harbor Freight. You have no idea what a $20.00 bill can be traded for at Harbor Freight.

[KL27x]

You have no idea what a $20.00 bill can be traded for at Harbor Freight.

As long as you do it quickly, so you survive the toxic smell. 

That's the smell of stuff from Ali Baba or eBay China gear that goes directly into the retail bag & box right off the manufacturing line.

HF is 9 cuts above that crap. If they sold bottom dollar junk without any QA, they'd go broke due to their warranty policy just from the shipping. So you don't get that direct whiff of Shenzen with HF stuff, IME. 

[galileo]

Expensive is a relative term: 1/10th of minimum wage in CH VS more than 1/2 in most of SE Europe.

While your point is true (though obvious), just as an FYI, Switzerland does not actually have a minimum wage.

That is interesting, I was told that no one gets less than ~2K CHF on any full time job so I just presumed that is the minimum wage.

[tooki]

Expensive is a relative term: 1/10th of minimum wage in CH VS more than 1/2 in most of SE Europe.

While your point is true (though obvious), just as an FYI, Switzerland does not actually have a minimum wage.

That is interesting, I was told that no one gets less than ~2K CHF on any full time job so I just presumed that is the minimum wage.

And 2K is considered abusively low. Switzerland's salaries on the high end aren't thaaaat much higher than other developed countries, but on the low end, FAR better. Consider Lidl, the discount grocery chain: they pay their employees in Switzerland CHF 4100 and up. (Admittedly, above average for grocery workers here.) In USA (where I am originally from), Lidl also pays above average for its industry: $2080 (for full time, assuming you can even get a full-time position…)

It's very interesting to me that Switzerland manages to have great wages without needing to legislate it. And the economy and society reflect the fact that nobody here is at risk of imminent financial ruin, in that there is both economic and social stability. (In USA, in contrast, the majority of Americans are one missing paycheck away from being broke, and contrary to popular stereotype, it's not because of irresponsible spending, but because they plain and simply do not make enough money to be able to save.)

[all_repair]

https://m.tb.cn/h.V3SzosI?sm=8fad6e
I have one of this as well as a Quick205, so far no chance to stress test them.

omg that video, dude heats up the iron then grabs the tip with his bare hand, sets the iron to 822 C and it turns red hot, then attaches an absolutely massive T12 tip   

I was suspicable but video does not look fake.  I just tried it, holding the 2section is quite OK (not the first section).
Able to set to as low as 100C can be useful when you want to remove glue, or to solder adhesive ribbon.

[thm_w]

It's very interesting to me that Switzerland manages to have great wages without needing to legislate it. And the economy and society reflect the fact that nobody here is at risk of imminent financial ruin, in that there is both economic and social stability. (In USA, in contrast, the majority of Americans are one missing paycheck away from being broke, and contrary to popular stereotype, it's not because of irresponsible spending, but because they plain and simply do not make enough money to be able to save.)

They look great until you consider this: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Switzerland
So maybe knock the number down 30-40%, but yes even after that, the wages still are very good.   

[KL27x]

Hakko is not a very well known brand in Europe... but 90% of them use Hakko clones 

What did you find about T12 clones that was inferior compared to Hakko 888?

The T12 clones I have used have temp sag. This is barely noticeable on most 2 layer stuff, to be fair. But I noticed, because I do production soldering. And the higher the heatsinking of the board, the worse the sag. This isn't a big deal for most people; I am pretty particular, though, about my temps, and I found I was needing to adjust the temp more often on the T12 clones vs 888, and running higher set temps to do the same jobs.

I only tried two cheap clones, one on the very vocal recommendation of a member who assured me it blows away any "obsolete 936/888 technology." Maybe the fancy ones actually do proper compensation for the sensor arrangement; and just because there's a microcontroller in there, that is no guarantee it is doing this.

There are many other reasons I prefer the 888, but I won't go into too much detail, because they are my own personal preference. Tip selection, ergos, stand, stuff like that. If you can't buy an 888 for $100.00, then don't worry about it. T12 clones are pretty darn good for the money. And cheap 936 clones I have used are way inferior to a genuine 888. I would probably prefer the cheap T12 clone vs cheap 936 clone. But I don't have to limit myself to those two choices.

T12 has advantages, of course. I just don't care about any of them; they don't do anything for me. For most folks, the fast warmup time and the shorter tip to grip and quicker change of tips might be great. For a production solderer, the most of your time you care about is the actual active soldering. When my iron comes out of the stand, I will be making 30-100 joints, maybe, before it goes back in. I am also only ever going to see the very tip of the iron in my microscope, so that nice slender/sexy (and light and flexy) T12 cartridge shaft doesn't do anything for me.

I also don't care too much that one of my T12 tips self-destructed while changing tips. The contact ripped off. When a T18 tip goes bad, it is a gradual event and a matter of degree; it can be finessed back to working and replaced without a fuss, in stride. I don't want to need an assortment of backup tips on hand. This particular squirrel already has way more acorns buried than he can remember where they are. I'm sure that was a freak accident. But I have been using an 888 since at least 2012 without any kind of issue, at all.

[tooki]

It's very interesting to me that Switzerland manages to have great wages without needing to legislate it. And the economy and society reflect the fact that nobody here is at risk of imminent financial ruin, in that there is both economic and social stability. (In USA, in contrast, the majority of Americans are one missing paycheck away from being broke, and contrary to popular stereotype, it's not because of irresponsible spending, but because they plain and simply do not make enough money to be able to save.)

They look great until you consider this: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Switzerland
So maybe knock the number down 30-40%, but yes even after that, the wages still are very good.   

As an American who’s lived in Switzerland for a total of 18 years, and about the same in USA, and who visits USA regularly, I can say with a high degree of confidence that that website has a lot of outdated data, on both sides. In the past 11 years, I’ve seen prices in USA go up dramatically for many things, and actually go down in Switzerland. Telecom for example: first of all, neither USA nor Switzerland are countries where prepaid comes close to giving the best rates. They’re both plan-based countries. And I pay WAAAAY less than in USA: I pay $35/mo for unlimited everything (with no caps in the fine print) both within and to Switzerland, Europe, and USA, including long distance and roaming. In USA $35 gets you unlimited voice and text, but just a few GB of data, and no roaming.

What comparisons like that don’t really consider either is things like the fact that the quality of housing here is WAY better, or that health insurance premiums not only cost far less here, but cover more. Or that you have more vacation days. There are tons of thing that are real cost savings not reflected in simple shopping baskets.

There’s no question that Switzerland is more expensive for most things, but the price difference in absolute numbers between USA and Switzerland has shrunk a lot over the years. In terms of purchasing power and disposable income, there’s really no contest, between much higher wages, many lower major expenses, and low taxes here.

[nigelwright7557]

That's what you get for buying from Maplin..
At least you can't make that mistake again now!

They are back trading again although just online.