Choosing a board house

[DMartens]

Hi ... watching YT videos and reading electronics blogs, the two board houses that seem to be most popular with hobbyists by far are PCBWay and JLCPCB ... I entered/uploaded three different board designs to both sites and checked out their prices ... board sizes were 100x100mm, 100x160mm and 160x300mm ... mix of SMD and THT components ... standard FR4 material ... 2 and 4 layers ... white silkscreen ... green solder mask ... no v-bit routing, no castelations, no buried vias or other "special" features ... in short, your typical run-of-the-mill specs.

On average, PCBWay came out to be between 3 and 5 times more expensive than JLCPCB, with estimated delivery times that are very similar.

So why do many YT creators promote PCBWay? Does "sponsored by" mean the creators are getting their boards for free? Or is PCBWay's quality superior thus explaining the cost?

[NorthGuy]

There are many factors. For example, IMHO JLCPCB's ENIG is somewhat better than PCBWay's, but PCBWay uses better substrate, and does better routing - you won't get things like chipped-off corners. Also, when comparing, consider the shipping costs which will be higher in JLCPCB. However, PCBWay charges 1% bank fee.

[Kean]

Does "sponsored by" mean the creators are getting their boards for free?

In some cases yes.  And possibly other payment or perks.
JLCPCB also do similar sponsorship deals.  Notably, I've seen a few recently for the 3D printed parts.
I don't know which is more "enticing" for sponsorship.

I've had good dealings with both, but generally use JLC for a number of reasons for my prototypes and small scale production - mostly related to convenience & price.

[zapta]

'sponsored by PCBWAYS' means that they get some incentive from PCBWAYS.

Your conclusions are similar to mine. JLC is less expensive, and easier to order with a more automated PCB/PCBA system.

[selcuk]

As far as I remember, PCBWay was earlier in the market. Or was popular earlier. I was working with them for prototype PCBs. Then I observed that lead free finish was adding very small amount to the price on JLCPCB, like a few $. It was very expensive on PCBway for small orders. Now I am using JLCPCB for both prototypes and mass production via a domestic reseller here.

[xbst_]

I am a YouTuber and I've received sponsorship offers offers from both companies. I also know some open-source devs who also received offers for sponsorships. PCBWay seems to do more marketing than JLC, but both do it. I received offers from a few more Asian companies too, but I never ordered PCBs from them, so I never accepted these offers.

I also run a PCB store. I mostly order assembled PCBs, but I occassionally order bare PCBs too. I regularly order PCBs from both JLCPCB and PCBWay.

In my experience, yes, PCBWay tends to be more expensive. Their bare PCBs are almost always more expensive, and PCB assembly is usually more expensive. An exception to this is when you need complex PCBs with expensive components assembled at very low volumes (prototypes). They don't charge the same fixed fees JLC charges. They charge a heavy mark up on component costs but then they offer free shipping. So you can end up paying less in some cases.

PCBWay also can make some PCBs JLC can't make. They offer many more options, especially under their "advanced" service. These, of course, cost a lot, but JLC isn't even an option for some PCBs.

I've also had better experiences when talking to CS reps at PCBWay than JLC. They seem to be more eager to help you, and to make things right when they make a mistake. Usually, all JLC does is offer you a $10 coupon, even when their mistake ends up costing me a lot more. This is especially low, because they give 2x $9 and 1x $6 coupon for free every month anyway. I had a lot of bad experiences with JLCPCB's assembly service, so I'm planning to move PCB assembly in-hose as soon as I can.

IMO, PCBWay's silkscreens look nicer than JLCs, and the routing feels nicer too. I've also received many "free" PCBs from them. I'm assuming this happens when they have free space on the big panels they put everyone's orders on. I never got free PCBs from JLC.

JLC seems to charge a lot for shipping. I have a feeling that they make up for some of their low prices in shipping. PCBWay's shipping is cheaper.

So I generally like working with PCBWay more, but I still order a ton of PCBs from JLCPCB. The reason is simple, it's cheaper. When a PCB costs A FEW TIMES more, I just cannot justify ordering from PCBWay.

[vespaman]

Interesting!
I have only been using PCBWay (bare PCBs) and are happy with them, but if JLPCB is much cheaper...
What about reruns? I.e. if I place an order on JLPCB, say 10 panels, and they turn out good, would future orders of the same panel give me the same result, or would I have to worry about 'new issues' for each batch?

[ebastler]

Interesting!
I have only been using PCBWay (bare PCBs) and are happy with them, but if JLPCB is much cheaper...
What about reruns? I.e. if I place an order on JLPCB, say 10 panels, and they turn out good, would future orders of the same panel give me the same result, or would I have to worry about 'new issues' for each batch?

They don't touch the files again, in my experience, so results should be the same -- within the stated production tolerances.

E.g. I did a PCB where I "abused" some plated through-holes as jacks for miniature plugs, and the hole diameters came out a bit different in a second batch. Also, routed board contours (where JLCPCB does not have great precision, as xbst_ mentioned) might come out a bit differently, but again, within their stated tolerances.

[xbst_]

Interesting!
I have only been using PCBWay (bare PCBs) and are happy with them, but if JLPCB is much cheaper...
What about reruns? I.e. if I place an order on JLPCB, say 10 panels, and they turn out good, would future orders of the same panel give me the same result, or would I have to worry about 'new issues' for each batch?

They don't touch the files again, in my experience, so results should be the same -- within the stated production tolerances.

E.g. I did a PCB where I "abused" some plated through-holes as jacks for miniature plugs, and the hole diameters came out a bit different in a second batch. Also, routed board contours (where JLCPCB does not have great precision, as xbst_ mentioned) might come out a bit differently, but again, within their stated tolerances.

Yep. And with PCB assembly, you never know how it'll turn out. First batch may be perfect, second batch may have components misplaced and/or damaged on 10% of PCBs, and third may be perfect again, even though they use the same files. Happened to me a few times.

[phil from seattle]

Interesting!
I have only been using PCBWay (bare PCBs) and are happy with them, but if JLPCB is much cheaper...
What about reruns? I.e. if I place an order on JLPCB, say 10 panels, and they turn out good, would future orders of the same panel give me the same result, or would I have to worry about 'new issues' for each batch?

They don't touch the files again, in my experience, so results should be the same -- within the stated production tolerances.

E.g. I did a PCB where I "abused" some plated through-holes as jacks for miniature plugs, and the hole diameters came out a bit different in a second batch. Also, routed board contours (where JLCPCB does not have great precision, as xbst_ mentioned) might come out a bit differently, but again, within their stated tolerances.

Yep. And with PCB assembly, you never know how it'll turn out. First batch may be perfect, second batch may have components misplaced and/or damaged on 10% of PCBs, and third may be perfect again, even though they use the same files. Happened to me a few times.

I've have several designs that I run through JLCPCB regularly.  In about 40 orders, I've had only one order that was misassembled (out of stock parts not flagged) and one other run of 50 boards had one board missing a single part.  Out of approximately 2000 boards, that is not bad. 

Note, it is a good idea not to push their limits - a conservative approach makes it easier for them to build what you ask for.

[xbst_]

Interesting!
I have only been using PCBWay (bare PCBs) and are happy with them, but if JLPCB is much cheaper...
What about reruns? I.e. if I place an order on JLPCB, say 10 panels, and they turn out good, would future orders of the same panel give me the same result, or would I have to worry about 'new issues' for each batch?

They don't touch the files again, in my experience, so results should be the same -- within the stated production tolerances.

E.g. I did a PCB where I "abused" some plated through-holes as jacks for miniature plugs, and the hole diameters came out a bit different in a second batch. Also, routed board contours (where JLCPCB does not have great precision, as xbst_ mentioned) might come out a bit differently, but again, within their stated tolerances.

Yep. And with PCB assembly, you never know how it'll turn out. First batch may be perfect, second batch may have components misplaced and/or damaged on 10% of PCBs, and third may be perfect again, even though they use the same files. Happened to me a few times.

I've have several designs that I run through JLCPCB regularly.  In about 40 orders, I've had only one order that was misassembled (out of stock parts not flagged) and one other run of 50 boards had one board missing a single part.  Out of approximately 2000 boards, that is not bad. 

Note, it is a good idea not to push their limits - a conservative approach makes it easier for them to build what you ask for.

Out of 22 PCBA orders this year, 5 orders had at least one bad PCB. I've identified 3 components they seem to not do a great job with, but unfortunatelty I cannot easily replace them. BME280, SGP40 and EVPAA202K

What bothers me more than their mistakes is how they avoid responsibility when they do. Mistakes happen, but they need to make it right. Not give $10 coupons when their mistakes cost me triple digits.

[Smokey]

JLCPCB and LCSC are the same company right?  They must benefit from having all the parts in house already since they are the distributor.
What is frustrating for me is that I can't have them combine parts and bare boards into one shipment. 

[xbst_]

JLCPCB and LCSC are the same company right?  They must benefit from having all the parts in house already since they are the distributor.
What is frustrating for me is that I can't have them combine parts and bare boards into one shipment.

They used to offer that once upon a time, but they don't offer that any more unfortunately*. I wish I could combine all the connectors I need to supply with products into same shipment too.

*I think some old accounts are still eligible for that.

[Accu-Sembly]

We are an assembly house and also provides boards for our clients, so my experience with these prototype sources is only rumors from the engineers that come to us.

Since I'm reading reports of quality issues, do they guarantee or rework misassembled products?  Or is it a "you get what you get" thing?

[ebastler]

Since I'm reading reports of quality issues, do they guarantee or rework misassembled products?  Or is it a "you get what you get" thing?

Offering a partial refund or discount seems to be the typical response. As mentioned by xbst_ above, it may vary between suppliers how generous/adequate that offer is, with the cheaper suppliers also being cheaper in their refund offers. (Surprise...)

Rework is not too practical if that means shipping back to China, with shipping costs and customs hassles. (Temporary export and re-import, or pay triple customs & taxes for the three shipping legs.)

[DMartens]

Very interesting experiences and points-of-view from all of you.

My original post was for bare PCBs that I typically only need one or two of and for that, it seems like all of you agree that at this moment, JLC is the cheapest.

Once you include supplying parts, assembling PCBs, small production runs, re-ordering of previous designs, special feature boards, etc. the answer becomes more difficult to answer.

Great inputs everyone.

[Accu-Sembly]

This makes a lot of sense, thank you.  We have had several clients that spent years and big $$ transferring production overseas only to have to return to local production after a couple years because "you get what you pay for" settles in.  Fall-out was large sure, but logistics can be a bear to calculate.  Still, it's nearly impossible to beat the price and appeal of a small batch prototype run if you don't plan on growing with your CM.

I am new to the forums and appreciate the insight, everyone.

[phil from seattle]

JLCPCB and LCSC are the same company right?  They must benefit from having all the parts in house already since they are the distributor.
What is frustrating for me is that I can't have them combine parts and bare boards into one shipment.

I'm not sure the exact corporate structure but there are in different locations so combining parts and board orders is likely complex. I'm suspect their profit added shipping model is what is annoying you. 

[corey]

We use PCBWay for prototypes at work. Haven't used JLCPCB, however I use their stackups as templates sometimes because they have a handy controlled impedance stackup generator. Their documentation is legible to read as an Aussie, unlike PCBWay's. I've had major issues with PCBWay's quality (but this is high layer count, blind vias, etc) where they attempt to make the board and it fails QA. Other medium-full service manufacturers (not JLCPCB) do much more thorough DFM checks on supplied gerbers than PCBWay -- who I've found tend to tend to throw it into production and let them worry about it.

At work I've gotten people using Eurocircuits on a lot of smaller jobs too, after lots of success with them at my previous job. Their online DFM checker and setup system is really impressive, and I've used it a lot to incrementally adjust my design to decrease cost and leadtime. Plus they manufacture out of Hungary (from memory), and have good customer service. I think you could get them to be in the ballpark of PCBWay, but I haven't done a 1:1 check on smaller simpler jobs recently.