EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Manufacturing & Assembly => Topic started by: mrpackethead on March 02, 2017, 12:20:12 am
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I just received my first shipment of PCB's from allpcb.com today.. THey are 4 layer ENIG.. These where made in teh Hqpcb fab. I designed them to a 6/6 spacing with .3mm minimum vias. I ordered 10 panels and they delivered. All have been
No problem with silk screens or masks they are all nicely routed and v-scored as per my gerbers.. All teh fiducals where produced as per design.
These are as good as the other low cost fabs in china but have come in significnatly lower cost. I'm not sure how they make a living ,but i'll take the savings. They were slihtly slower ( 2-3 days ) in getting to me than what i've had previously but for somethiing i'm not in a rush for that was ok.
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Could you post a picture of the board? And what price did you get, and shipping cost?
HC
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Was $USD159 including freight to New Zealand and this included a stainless steel laser/electroformed stencil/
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Good to know, I was waiting for your review post you had mentioned in another thread. I will be trying a 5/5 .25mm 4 layer ENIG with HQPCB soon.
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Thanks! What is the dimension of the panel?
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Good to know, I was waiting for your review post you had mentioned in another thread. I will be trying a 5/5 .25mm 4 layer ENIG with HQPCB soon.
Congrads on teh scope winl.
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Panel is about this much by that much.. Lol.. Go and check it out for your self.
http://www.allpcb.com/?code=G4 (http://www.allpcb.com/?code=G4)
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Good to know, I was waiting for your review post you had mentioned in another thread. I will be trying a 5/5 .25mm 4 layer ENIG with HQPCB soon.
Congrads on teh scope winl.
Thanks!
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Did you get HQ's stackup? I tried asking myself for the 6 layer, but I got a weird excel file that looked like it was missing values.
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From my side, so far, it is a negative experience.
Huge delay in production and huge delay in shipping.
Supposedly since February 18 that the PCBs are ready. The package was only received at the post office on February 24 and since March 1 that is waiting for shipment from HK ... 6 days have passed!
The service is a little cheaper ... but it did not pay the unexplained waiting time ...
Maybe for +5USD I would have PCBs in my house.
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The prices are comparatively less. I don't have any personal experience with them.
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Out of curiousity what delivery service did you choose? The Postal service one or DHL?
The postal services are notoriously slow. But the price difference between that and DHL only is a few dollars in most cases.
From my side, so far, it is a negative experience.
Huge delay in production and huge delay in shipping.
Supposedly since February 18 that the PCBs are ready. The package was only received at the post office on February 24 and since March 1 that is waiting for shipment from HK ... 6 days have passed!
The service is a little cheaper ... but it did not pay the unexplained waiting time ...
Maybe for +5USD I would have PCBs in my house.
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I chose the normal postal service.
For example, in Portugal I would have to pay this:
~ 15USD - manufacture of PCB's
~ 24USD - shipping via DHL
Total = 36.83 € - the value is higher than 22 €, so I will pay +23% VAT if the package goes to the customs. For DHL to get the package to customs, I have to pay more ~30 €.
The total of the order would be: 75 € ~ 79USD.
It does not compensate use DHL service.
But I use a lot dirtypcb's and they are super fast either in manufacturing or in shipping (I do not know how they manage it, but I get the package in 2 weeks).
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Ordered 50 6-layers ENIG 100x90mm panels (0.2/0.2 tracks, 0.3/0.6 vias) for 240 USD + 8 different mechanically complex 2-layer boards from HQPCB. Production was on-time. Shipped Saturday, received Monday at 11am (DHL to Belgium). Everything was well produced, well packed, received nearly double the quantity ordered on all the 2-layers. Della speaks english very well which was awesome to explain these mechanically special boards and ensure they weren't wrongly edited. Stoked so far.
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Ordered 50 6-layers ENIG 100x90mm panels (0.2/0.2 tracks, 0.3/0.6 vias) for 240 USD + 8 different mechanically complex 2-layer boards from HQPCB. Production was on-time. Shipped Saturday, received Monday at 11am (DHL to Belgium). Everything was well produced, well packed, received nearly double the quantity ordered on all the 2-layers. Della speaks english very well which was awesome to explain these mechanically special boards and ensure they weren't wrongly edited. Stoked so far.
Are you buying direct from Hqpcb or did you use Allpcb? I'm wrapped with teh service that i'm getting from 'Erin' who also speaks great english is quick to respond.. And they are good at picking up on things that might causes problems or things that are a little unusal. I'm impressed with how through they are. I've got four more boards to send to them this week.
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Through AllPCB. I've now noticed I also received 61 6-layers boards instead of 50.
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Ordered 50 6-layers ENIG 100x90mm panels (0.2/0.2 tracks, 0.3/0.6 vias) for 240 USD + 8 different mechanically complex 2-layer boards from HQPCB. Production was on-time. Shipped Saturday, received Monday at 11am (DHL to Belgium). Everything was well produced, well packed, received nearly double the quantity ordered on all the 2-layers. Della speaks english very well which was awesome to explain these mechanically special boards and ensure they weren't wrongly edited. Stoked so far.
Do they have an english website? I can't seem to find any button to change the language.
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Do they have an english website? I can't seem to find any button to change the language.
Order them through allpcb.com and you'll be able to select HQPCb ( or any other )
heres teh link https://t.co/UZLXIdLpql
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Through AllPCB. I've now noticed I also received 61 6-layers boards instead of 50.
How is this possible? Payment received for 50 or 61? Have you communicated with them about this?
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I ordered and paid 50, I received 61.
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Through AllPCB. I've now noticed I also received 61 6-layers boards instead of 50.
How is this possible? Payment received for 50 or 61? Have you communicated with them about this?
common you pay for and will get atleast what you order, but they have to make extras to be sure in case some
of them have flaws, if they all work they might as well ship them instead of throwing them out
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A frequent HQPCB customer here for prototypes, ordered directly from them. The price on allpcb.com seems to be slightly cheaper compare to ordering them directly.
But, that is before you add the shipping charges. It seems that they make money from the shipping charges.
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Erin is so professional. She helped me with my PCB orders a lot. ALLPCB offers good customer sevice. :-+
I am unimpressed by Erin spamming me via email and Twitter. So for the moment I refuse to deal with them. :--
Tomas007 seems to be an AllPCB shill account - check out his/her post history. I wouldn't be surpised if it was Erin.
Fastech PCB are also massive spammers, and on my black list along with a few others.
So I am using PCBzone in NZ for now - reasonable pricing for non-China manufacture, and a very fast prototype service available.
I ordered yesterday some 4-layer with 1-day turn, and they apparently shipped by DHL this morning - a little over 24 hours later.
Not a shill, a real customer based on a EEV Dave recommendation. ;D
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Funny i've tryed to use PCBZone ( and i'm in NZ ) and its never really been an economic proposition.. One of the issues is lack of solder stencils.
Funny to told Erin to back off on the emails.. Shes just super keen to help, we all hate spam but just don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
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Funny i've tryed to use PCBZone ( and i'm in NZ ) and its never really been an economic proposition.. One of the issues is lack of solder stencils.
Hmmm... they offer stencils these days, but it depends on what exactly you want. I'm currently using OSHStencils Polyimide stencils where possible for prototypes, as I was building up a huge collection of stainless ones that were taking up space - especially the production or framed ones, which tend to be huge and/or bulky.
Funny to told Erin to back off on the emails.. Shes just super keen to help, we all hate spam but just don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
I did say "for the moment". I did tell Erin I wasn't impressed, and she did apologise and pointed to my involvement in this forum as why she reached out. I will have to see how they continue, but I just won't do business with companies that are unethical (e.g. Fastech PCB mass spamming with fake senders), or continue bad/dishonest behaviour after it being pointed out.
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Funny i've tryed to use PCBZone ( and i'm in NZ ) and its never really been an economic proposition.. One of the issues is lack of solder stencils.
Hmmm... they offer stencils these days, but it depends on what exactly you want. I'm currently using OSHStencils Polyimide stencils where possible for prototypes, as I was building up a huge collection of stainless ones that were taking up space - especially the production or framed ones, which tend to be huge and/or bulky.
Funny to told Erin to back off on the emails.. Shes just super keen to help, we all hate spam but just don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
I did say "for the moment". I did tell Erin I wasn't impressed, and she did apologise and pointed to my involvement in this forum as why she reached out. I will have to see how they continue, but I just won't do business with companies that are unethical (e.g. Fastech PCB mass spamming with fake senders), or continue bad/dishonest behaviour after it being pointed out.
Hi Kean, Good day, this is Erin,
Sorry for it.As you say thanks to the post recommendation ALLPCB, then I do a following to contact u for further contact of simply introduce.
Sorry again that it have disturbed you. For the PCB fab, pls just take easy that you choose the fab you like.
But you mentioned "unethical ", it is critical if for a recommendation.
There should be many customers who still want find a better supplier for their projects, which have a cost effective for their PCB, PCBA, SMT stencil, ...etc. pls understand it.
Best regards,
Erin
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I too made an order on all pcb / HQPCB
very nice results.
I wasn't sure wether to upload the board or not because it seems that they some kind of "lottery" and you enter by reviewing a board on "famous websites"
or something like that.. i didn't even want to give a second glance at the banner.
Anyway, positively impressed as i was able to get the boards on "sale".
Notice that they will put an indentification code (on this board, inside the TQFP. in another board, inside a potentiometer land pattern)
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I too made an order on all pcb / HQPCB
very nice results.
I wasn't sure wether to upload the board or not because it seems that they some kind of "lottery" and you enter by reviewing a board on "famous websites"
or something like that.. i didn't even want to give a second glance at the banner.
Anyway, positively impressed as i was able to get the boards on "sale".
Notice that they will put an indentification code (on this board, inside the TQFP. in another board, inside a potentiometer land pattern)
Hi,
thanks for sharing your experience of ALLPCB, :)
Have a good day !
Best regards,
Erin KOU
( Sales manager, ALLPCB)
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Huh, they are already upping their game with the enclosure and all(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170403/5ef8c55405018d8c2df8d568a4ef2f8c.jpg)
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I am about to try them myself HQPCB via allpcb (always used pcbcart). I am still waiting for reply about stackups and Er.
It would have been so much easier if this had been part of the drop down options...
HC
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Attached is default HQPCB 4L stackup and JDBPCB default stackup.
When I get the material datasheet I will post it here.
Date of requesting this info is 11-APRIL-2017
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hqpcb fr4 datasheet also attached
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Attached is default HQPCB 4L stackup and JDBPCB default stackup.
When I get the material datasheet I will post it here.
Date of requesting this info is 11-APRIL-2017
Thanks for shareing it here, :)
Hope this can be helpful for the electronics engineerings who needed.
Best regards,
Erin KOU
Sales manager, ALLPCB
Site: www.allpcb.com/G4 (http://www.allpcb.com/G4)
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Erin,
I had a great experience the first tme, but ordering from you is a nightmare. The system provides a price but then it comes back with differnent costs.. When I ask why you were unable to tell me why. This is most unsatisifactory.
This is why i've gone back to ordering boards from a company who doe'snt play games with me.
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HQ PCB is a famous PCB producer in shenzhen, actually there are some other famous producers, such as the JLC, but actually they are both "express PCB" vendor, mainly for prototyping and small batch, and also they have different advantage, which needs much experence to select the right one for each projects.
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I made my first order from allpcb and it turns out great, mainly due to the price and speed.
Sent them a second order but it turns out to be a poor experience. They shipped me my pcb with blur legends and argued that it can still be identified without owning up their mistake or offering an apology.
Will need to find new manufacturers that have consistent quality.
Image attached.
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Arguably it wont' impact on the function of the pcbs, but it its a bit substandard. I'm on order 50 something and i've not had this problem.. ( i've had a coupel of other problems ).. Whos your sales rep at Allpcb?
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It was Libby. The first time she was helpful but this time around it's disappointing.
If they can have inadequate ink for legends wouldn't that be true for copper layers too?
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The copper and silk layers are quite different.. the silk is more of a dotmatrix printer, were as the copper is a photographic process.
I
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I stumbled across this thread while searching for reviews of AllPCB service. What really sets them apart (at least at the moment) is that apparently shipping is free (to Canada, likely to other places as well), even with DHL (up to ~ 1kg). I only need one 10x10cm 2-layers PCB, and with them the cost is 5$ all inclusive, for up to 10 boards. I thought this is too good to be true, and the company is fake, but this thread seems to suggest they are legit.
This is the email I got from AllPCB after registering:
===? Good NEWS !
Enjoy express service, but no express costs!!
Min $5 for Standard 1-2 layers board with 24-48H lead time
Min $41.86 for Standard 4 layers board with 48-72H lead time
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I thought this is too good to be true, and the company is fake, but this thread seems to suggest they are legit.
I've placed many orders ( 1 or 2 a week this year ) with them this year, and they are the real deal. While we struggling to undersand how they are doing this for so low cost, they just get on and do it!
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Btw, why is Ms. Erin KOU banned ? For Pete's sake guys, we need more women on board ! Don't ban them ! :( ;)
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Hopefully the mods just see it fit to give them a time out. I talked to Erin, and explained to them, why what they did was really bad. I also suggested that she stopped everyone else at her company from posting to the forums, and jsut have the one person. ( her ).. In there 'enthusiam' to make sales, they just did some dumb things.
I hope its not a permanant thing.
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I know that on another board an All PCB employee started a thread about AllPCB with out ID herself as such. Thread got deleted. Don't know if thread starter did.
AllPCB is aggressive in looking for people to promote them. To the point of offering reward credits for positive reviews, especially youtube testimonials. I've done a number of different boards through them and am quite happy with their quality at the price point however I don't shill for anyone. I don't know if "unethical" is the correct word for what they are doing but I find it a bit distasteful. It's also counter productive as the way to get good word of mouth is to consistently do a good job. But, when I see some one extolling them, I can't tell if it's honest or bought.
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you are right regarding the aggressive promotion, but to be honest, I don't care. Quality must be good, low price and fast delivery time.
I ordered a lot from EasyEDA since the price is really good. ALLPCB's prices are higher. But if I calculate PCB price + shipping costs then
ALLPCB is a little bit less compared with EasyEDA. But the big differrence is delivery time.
From EasyEDA it takes about 10 days from order to delivery. ALLPCB is much faster, the last board took only 5 days from online order until delivery to Germany.
I cannot see any difference in quality until now.
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Yes, but you are making my point - provide good quality at a decent price and you don't need to buy people's testimonials.
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According to you, your background, your culture.
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In deed.
I recently got a plesant suprize when i went to order some new feeders for my PNP machine from my chinese supplier ( whos been relaible, well priced and all those good thigns ).. He said, that i had a $100 credit, because i had introduced someone to him. Totally suprizing to me, and i said, theres no need, I was just helping someone else out with a contact to solve their problem. Likewise my freind would give me a good suggestion if he could. But in Chinese business, there is an expectation that you should pay for these introductions, and its quite normal.
And thats when when get the clash of cultures that cause these kind of dramas. Its best we take the time and a good pinch of understanding to work through this stuff.. ( on both sides )
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Can anyone please give me a hand here? I've just designed my first digital PCB using KiCAD software. I sent the Gerber files to allPCB last week, and since then it's been a back and forth. It must be partly a language barrier, partly the 12 hour time difference between Canada and China, and (perhaps mainly) my inexperience, but it seems to be going nowhere.
First, allPCB told me one Gerber file was missing (bottom solder mask). I added the file and re-uploaded the zip archive. Since then they already twice told me about " the solder mask without pad at the bottom layer". They even provided a little image to show the problematic pads:
https://www.physics.mcmaster.ca/~syam/jpeg/Catch3DCF.jpg (https://www.physics.mcmaster.ca/~syam/jpeg/Catch3DCF.jpg)
I keep checking my Gerber files, and they all look okay to me. This is how my *B.Mask.gbs file looks like in GerberView:
https://www.physics.mcmaster.ca/~syam/jpeg/gerber_gbs.jpg (https://www.physics.mcmaster.ca/~syam/jpeg/gerber_gbs.jpg)
The pads with arrows in the allpcb's image look perfectly normal.
Am I doing something stupid here? Or perhaps allpcb overlooked something?
Here are the actual Gerber files: https://www.physics.mcmaster.ca/~syam/Gerbers2.zip (https://www.physics.mcmaster.ca/~syam/Gerbers2.zip)
Thanks!
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I'm having a little trouble telling the distance, maybe not enough clearance for the solder mask?
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I'm having a little trouble telling the distance, maybe not enough clearance for the solder mask?
Wouldn't DRC catch this?
There is one more detail about my project (perhaps it explains the issue?): Originally it was designed as a purely single-layer design (I thought I would use a local on-campus milling machine where single layer milling is quite a bit cheaper, but later changed my mind). Accordingly, in the footprints I used or created, I deleted the front layer pads, and only left the bottom layer parts. Perhaps it was a wrong thing to do?
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Yeah, it should be fine I think. The image that they sent to you points out more than just the D16 pads, so I'm just trying to figure out what it might be. Which may be what they meane because it looks like you still have vias but pads on the one side? But what the other arrows are pointing out I just can't figure out.
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Indeed, I only have pads on one side, but then I added a few vias and front side tracks (when I realized I will be using a proper PCB manufacturing service). I actually prefer pads to only be on the bottom side as it is much easier to solder and de-solder the parts.
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Well, I am impressed so far: for 5.50$ total (with free shipping), my five 10x10cm 2-layer PCBs were ordered on allpcb.com site on November 17, and were just delivered to my house (I am at work at the moment). Only 7 days in total, despite 2-3 days lost due to the 12 hour time difference and going back and fourth 3 times due to some issues with my files. The shipping itself (to Canada, by DHL) only took 35 hours. So far so good! I'll post an update later, regarding the quality of the PCBs.
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I've just had a slightly odd experience with AllPCB.
I ordered some boards from them a few weeks ago as a test, and they came back spot on.
Then, a couple of days ago, I put in an order for another design, and it got queried. No NC drill layer, apparently.
So, I checked the ZIP file I'd uploaded, and it's definitely there, so I emailed back to point this out.
AllPCB came back with another request for the NC drill layer, so I re-generated the file exactly as before but with "ncdrill" in the file name, replacing the original file in the ZIP.
I sent the new ZIP and my board is now, apparently, being fabricated. Hurrah!
I wonder if there's a language barrier problem? Maybe their front end software looks for files with "nc" or "drill" in the filename, and can't find the drill file otherwise?
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AllPCB came back with another request for the NC drill layer, so I re-generated the file exactly as before but with "ncdrill" in the file name, replacing the original file in the ZIP.
I sent the new ZIP and my board is now, apparently, being fabricated. Hurrah!
I wonder if there's a language barrier problem? Maybe their front end software looks for files with "nc" or "drill" in the filename, and can't find the drill file otherwise?
What was the drills' file name first time around? I used three different CAD suites over time (DipTrace, KiCAD and now Orcad), and all of them had drill files with .drl extension. Never had such problem.
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That is a new one
My files are all named projectname.ext ( ext being GTO, GBO etc etc ).. My Drill files are always just a .TXT so projectname.txt
I alwyas include the EXTREP file in my gerbrers,
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What was the drills' file name first time around?
The file was named along the lines of ABC01_A-1-4.drl.
The 'ABC01_A' portion indicates the project name and revision. '1-4' indicates that the holes should be drilled through layers 1-4, and .drl clearly isn't as meaningful as I thought it was!
Seriously... if you think you need a file, and there's exactly one file in the ZIP archive that hasn't been used yet, what would you do?
a) ask the customer to send the 'missing' file, or
b) check and see what the extra file you already have actually is?
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Here are the scans of the first allpcb's boards I received (scanned at a ridiculous resolution of 1600 dpi). Beautiful. I can't believe they are making a profit with these - I got 7 of 10x10cm boards with free DHL shipping (35 hours to ship to Canada), for 5.50$ total. Just shipping is probably more than that. I suspect the free shipping part is a limited time thing, while they are trying to expand their market share.
This is my first digitally designed PCB, and first professionally manufactured one. I spent my teen years many years ago designing PCBs on a piece of millimeter paper, drawing tracks by hand with a pen, and etching them. It worked, but the quality was nothing compared to these. And it's so affordable. From now on creativity will be the only limitation for my projects :) .
BTW I don't see any issues with my pads, despite the allpcb's concerns (I lost 2 days because of that). I think the company was overzealous.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4560/38635427441_568d300b8f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/21S5Exk)allpcb.com PCB, back (https://flic.kr/p/21S5Exk) by First Last (https://www.flickr.com/photos/99745838@N03/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4517/37747447275_c1472a8acf_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZvBwYt)allpcb.com PCB, front (https://flic.kr/p/ZvBwYt) by First Last (https://www.flickr.com/photos/99745838@N03/), on Flickr
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Glad you got it straight! Since you are in Canada did DHL charge any brokerage fees?
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No extra charge from DHL. 5.50$ US was my total expenses.
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a .drl extention is very commonly used as a drill rack file.. To put your drill file data in that is unusal. While the file names are only 'suggestive' rather than absolutely requried, i'd suggest to you that your Drill files should be named with something other than .drl, Mine typuicallyk are called filename-plated.txt and filename-nonplated.txt ( default naming out of altium )
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BTW I don't see any issues with my pads, despite the allpcb's concerns (I lost 2 days because of that). I think the company was overzealous.
What where their concerns?
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a .drl extention is very commonly used as a drill rack file.. To put your drill file data in that is unusal. While the file names are only 'suggestive' rather than absolutely requried, i'd suggest to you that your Drill files should be named with something other than .drl, Mine typuicallyk are called filename-plated.txt and filename-nonplated.txt ( default naming out of altium )
It doesn't matter what extensions are as long as fab's CAM engineer can figure out what file is what. I usually include "!Info.txt" file along with Gerbers where I explain what file is what, as well as type all other requirements I have for manufacturing (like process, or required stackup, controlled impedance specifications, etc.). Never had any issues or questions since I started doing that.
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No extra charge from DHL. 5.50$ US was my total expenses.
DHL will charge HST+brokerage fee if customs value of shipment is above $100 CAD (AFAIK). Now, you can always ask your shipper to specify lower customs value in commercial invoice, but I would not advise doing that if you're buying boards for business. You can get HST back via ITC anyway, but CRA might ask some unpleasant questions if audit will show up and discover that amount actually paid does not match customs value.
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a .drl extention is very commonly used as a drill rack file.. To put your drill file data in that is unusal. While the file names are only 'suggestive' rather than absolutely requried, i'd suggest to you that your Drill files should be named with something other than .drl, Mine typuicallyk are called filename-plated.txt and filename-nonplated.txt ( default naming out of altium )
It doesn't matter what extensions are as long as fab's CAM engineer can figure out what file is what. I usually include "!Info.txt" file along with Gerbers where I explain what file is what, as well as type all other requirements I have for manufacturing (like process, or required stackup, controlled impedance specifications, etc.). Never had any issues or questions since I started doing that.
No it doesnt, however its good to make it simple. Also allpcb has an 'extra' information box in your order. thats a really good place to put the info.
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BTW I don't see any issues with my pads, despite the allpcb's concerns (I lost 2 days because of that). I think the company was overzealous.
What where their concerns?
See my post #49 here.
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Generally, each PCB house has their own preferred naming schemes. PCBWay points people to the sparkfun CAM file for Eagle. That uses .TXT as the drill extension. I think Seeed and ALLPCB borrowed it from PCBWay.
I've got my 7th job going at ALLPCB, number 6 shows up on Tuesday, put in on Thursday. That's calendar 5 days delivered. It still blows my mind - $5.49 for 10 boards in less than a week. Faster than ordering something from Amazon. I'm really working down my "wish I had a PCB for that" list. #7 is an AtmelICE adapter board. I'll have nine copies to give to friends.
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Generally, each PCB house has their own preferred naming schemes. PCBWay points people to the sparkfun CAM file for Eagle. That uses .TXT as the drill extension. I think Seeed and ALLPCB borrowed it from PCBWay.
I've got my 7th job going at ALLPCB, number 6 shows up on Tuesday, put in on Thursday. That's calendar 5 days delivered. It still blows my mind - $5.49 for 10 boards in less than a week. Faster than ordering something from Amazon. I'm really working down my "wish I had a PCB for that" list. #7 is an AtmelICE adapter board. I'll have nine copies to give to friends.
Altium using .TXT by default for NC files as well.
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I used the KiCAD's default naming for drilling files (project.drl and project-NPTH.drl) and allpcb had no issues with them. Perhaps it depends on a particular person handling your case?
On a separate note - does anyone know what is the minimal number of identical boards the allpcb's facility can produce without a waste? Their minimal order is 5; I think they always add extra 2 boards, so I received 7. The problem is that I only need one, maximum three (just in case), the rest is a waste. If I knew that they can manufacture two without a waste, I'd ask them to do that (even if it's the same price) - this waste is really not good for the environment.
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a .drl extention is very commonly used as a drill rack file.. To put your drill file data in that is unusal.
.drl is the default extension used by Cadence, which should make it as close to an industry standard as there is. It certainly shouldn't be so unusual as to cause confusion.
Funnily enough I had exactly the same problem with another job I sent them on Friday. I even put 'ncdrill' in the file name this time, but they still queried it. I re-sent the exact same file, and now my job is being fabricated.
At the end of the day it's just a minor inconvenience, and it's cost me a day or two in delays. Not a big deal on this occasion, but it's still deeply strange. I may have to revise my previously held mantra, that there's no such thing as a stupid question.
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On a separate note - does anyone know what is the minimal number of identical boards the allpcb's facility can produce without a waste? Their minimal order is 5; I think they always add extra 2 boards, so I received 7. The problem is that I only need one, maximum three (just in case), the rest is a waste. If I knew that they can manufacture two without a waste, I'd ask them to do that (even if it's the same price) - this waste is really not good for the environment.
The sad part I think if you requested that they would probably just make the same amount and toss the extras. Thanks for letting me know about DHL, I won't be afraid to use it on small orders. :)
The amount of general waste in the world is a shame. I think the most appealing thing about learning repairs (electrical or otherwise) and even re-purpose.
Depending on the project, if possible I think the best we can do getting them made is make it as repurposable as possible.
I'm just getting into this, but one order of mine only suites 2 purposes, but they can be used to make new or repair (solar lights)
The other is pretty simple but I did put an ICSP header and made sure all the pins are able to be hooked up to it, so at minimum I have a development board but I could within the limitations of the chip repurpose it from something else. (LED lighting via PWM outputs is the intended purpose) The next version I'm adding in a boost chip so rechargable batteries can be used. But on the plus side I will still be able to use these boards :)
I'm a big fan of not throwing things away if they can be repaired or repurposed. :)
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Yeah, the waste thing is an issue. I general try to design my boards so they can be used for several purposes. I have a focus rail controller board that can be used for a number of camera related projects, for example.
On an earlier point, I have done a number of boards through ALLPCB and have never gotten extras.
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Just had my first AllPCB run through - pretty good.
Silk's clear (much, much better than JLCPCB), although they tweaked sizes a bit which has caused some issues - I'd rather they have left that alone or asked first.. or at least noticed the overlaps.
One board has a blob stuck in the mask, which is weird. And a majority have an.. odd pattern in the copper under the mask. It's hard to see, but it's the same pattern across all of them.
HASL's not great - had much flatter.
No real complaints for $5.49 for these simple boards.
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lthough they tweaked sizes a bit which has caused some issues - I'd rather they have left that alone or asked first.. or at least noticed the overlaps.
Did you check the gerber files? I don't know what program you are using, but I've stumbled in Proteus that silkscreen that you see while creating layout and what's in the gerber has slightly different size / position.
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lthough they tweaked sizes a bit which has caused some issues - I'd rather they have left that alone or asked first.. or at least noticed the overlaps.
Did you check the gerber files? I don't know what program you are using, but I've stumbled in Proteus that silkscreen that you see while creating layout and what's in the gerber has slightly different size / position..
Yes, I checked. It's tight, but the source gerbers do not overlap - they also changed the line thickness visibly on the altered silk.
Some of my thinner lines haven't come out consistently so I guess I was right on the edge.
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Yes, I checked. It's tight, but the source gerbers do not overlap - they also changed the line thickness visibly on the altered silk.
Some of my thinner lines haven't come out consistently so I guess I was right on the edge.
Would you post a picture of how it is and how it should've been?
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Yeah, the waste thing is an issue. I general try to design my boards so they can be used for several purposes. I have a focus rail controller board that can be used for a number of camera related projects, for example.
On an earlier point, I have done a number of boards through ALLPCB and have never gotten extras.
Interesting - my very first board from allpcb (I posted pics here on the previous page) is in the same category - to control a stepper motor, camera shutter, and external flashes, with Nokia 5110 LCD and 4x4 keypad. The original purpose is for a 3D scanner (taking multiple photos of an object from different angles, for photogrammetry), though it can be used for many other photography related projects. A year ago I also made my own macro stacking rail (http://pulsar124.wikia.com/wiki/Fast_Stacker (http://pulsar124.wikia.com/wiki/Fast_Stacker)), with very similar hardware, but I used prototype boards. I might want to redo it with a proper PCB (also I now have a 3D printer, so a nicer enclosure can be made).
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Yeah, the waste thing is an issue. I general try to design my boards so they can be used for several purposes. I have a focus rail controller board that can be used for a number of camera related projects, for example.
On an earlier point, I have done a number of boards through ALLPCB and have never gotten extras.
Interesting - my very first board from allpcb (I posted pics here on the previous page) is in the same category - to control a stepper motor, camera shutter, and external flashes, with Nokia 5110 LCD and 4x4 keypad. The original purpose is for a 3D scanner (taking multiple photos of an object from different angles, for photogrammetry), though it can be used for many other photography related projects. A year ago I also made my own macro stacking rail (http://pulsar124.wikia.com/wiki/Fast_Stacker (http://pulsar124.wikia.com/wiki/Fast_Stacker)), with very similar hardware, but I used prototype boards. I might want to redo it with a proper PCB (also I now have a 3D printer, so a nicer enclosure can be made).
Great minds think alike. Sounds similar though I'm using one of the those 2.2" touch TFT LCD displays with the integrated SD Card slot. I've used the Nokia 5110 LCD in the past but really like this one. With a fast enough controller and lots of flash, you can do some really nice fonts. Paul Stoffregen's IL9341 display driver rocks. I only have 4 buttons but am looking to move to a rotary encoder. I support the touch interface but it's just not that good and doesn't really add to the UI. Will probably repurpose those pins in the next turn of the design - I think a second stepper interface is more useful. The free shipping deal allows me to try different ideas out quickly and cheaply.
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Great minds think alike. Sounds similar though I'm using one of the those 2.2" touch TFT LCD displays with the integrated SD Card slot. I've used the Nokia 5110 LCD in the past but really like this one. With a fast enough controller and lots of flash, you can do some really nice fonts. Paul Stoffregen's IL9341 display driver rocks. I only have 4 buttons but am looking to move to a rotary encoder. I support the touch interface but it's just not that good and doesn't really add to the UI. Will probably repurpose those pins in the next turn of the design - I think a second stepper interface is more useful. The free shipping deal allows me to try different ideas out quickly and cheaply.
I really liked the real (not membrane) but still very cheap 4x4 keypad. I designed my Fast Stacker with a professional use in mind - no menus, instead all the functions (a few dozens) are instantly accessible via one- or -two- key combinations (sort of Ctrl_* and Alt-*).
Sorry for highjacking this thread...
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Yes, I checked. It's tight, but the source gerbers do not overlap - they also changed the line thickness visibly on the altered silk.
Some of my thinner lines haven't come out consistently so I guess I was right on the edge.
Would you post a picture of how it is and how it should've been?
Apologies for the differing angles - this is more or less the product of taking 50 shots and looking for the best. A phone is not a camera. A phone is not a camera. A phone is not a camera.
The JLCPCB appears to be an actual silkscreening process and leaky around the edges, making it very hard to read unmagnified - but every line is present and accounted for.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/first-boards-from-allpcb-com-postive-expereince/?action=dlattach;attach=374641;image)
ALLPCB appears to be inkjet style printing and the resolution just wasn't up to the details I asked for. Not 100% sure the size has been changed now I can compare it better, but it's very inconsistent and that overlap shouldn't exist.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/first-boards-from-allpcb-com-postive-expereince/?action=dlattach;attach=374643;image)
For comparison, the same size and settings on an unrelated board produced by DirtyPCBs. Looks like silk, somewhat cleaner than JLCPCB. Still a little thick, but very readable by eye.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/first-boards-from-allpcb-com-postive-expereince/?action=dlattach;attach=374645;image)
And finally a shot of the same area from the gerbers.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/first-boards-from-allpcb-com-postive-expereince/?action=dlattach;attach=374647;image)
I am asking a lot of bargain basement production: Those are 0.1mm thick lines around the 0603 footprints - ALLPCB can't consistently print them (their spec is >=0.15mm) and the other fabs appear to print them rather thick.
No real complaints with any of them - The silk's a bit crusty from JLCPCB, but they managed to get mask under one awkward footprint that ALLPCB gave up on. Both had some difficulties with the smaller of my plated slots - and DirtyPCBs had an issue with milling them at an angle on that board over two different runs.. They're all pretty amazing for what they charge.
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And an added bonus: A quickly tweaked for contrast photo of the mark in the copper:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/first-boards-from-allpcb-com-postive-expereince/?action=dlattach;attach=374649;image)
That exact pattern is all over most (but not all) of the boards from ALLPCB, on both sides. I'm guessing it's from a protective film. Looks like a six-toed frog..
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Don't use a camera (or a cell phone) for PCB pics - a regular scanner will do a much better job (see my images on the previous page) - no geometric distortion, sharp everywhere, good lighting...
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I don't have a scanner. I'm well aware they're ideal for this, but I also have exactly zero other uses for one..
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There seems to be an expectation that silk screens are like fine art. But really they are not. My pcbs have increasingly less silk screen as theres simply no were to put it.
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This is a lot of pixelation, even on straight lines.
Interesting that the way the silk screen is removed is not consistent - it is removed next to some pads, but then it remains at the same distance to the other pad of the same resistor. Computer would never do such thing. I cannot believe they did it manually.
Very strange that R39 shifted to the left and covered C28. The size is still the same. May be it is some sort of bug in their software. Or, perhaps someone was editing it and shifted it accidentally.
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I wonder if the misplaced printing is a font problem. Although, it looks the gerber uses vectors for the text, there are actual fonts that look vector based. Board houses all seem to interpret actual fonts differently.
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i've bought boards from allpcb 3 times.
these were all aluminum core smt boards.
the only thing i could find that wasn't perfect was the silk screen was 'slightly' misaligned.
10 aluminum boards for $2 each delivered in 5 working days is a bargain for me.
ordering was simple and straight forward using diptrace generated gerbers.
and they take paypal which adds a paypal fee but it's still a bargain.
i haven't found anything lower priced.
i can't believe all the bellyachin goin on here.
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I just checked, and allpcb.com still provides the free DHL shipping option (to Canada at least). So it's not a November-only deal as some suggested here. Keeping my fingers crossed.
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I received some boards from ALLpcb with the free shipping :-+
The cost was more than $5, but these were panelised boards and the adjusted cost certainly wasn't unreasonable, so I actually got 42 boards per 100x100 panel. I ordered 5 panels and received 7.
Thank you ALLpcb!
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Just received 15 of the 10 boards I ordered from AllPCB. Very happy with the quality, price and delivery time. Honestly, I was ok with waiting a month or so for some cheap PCBs, but for these to come all they way from China to Uk in a week is incredible. I even got a tracking number. I really cant figure how they can offer this service for the price they do.
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Hi all,
Appreciate the good info here. I'm about to place a prototype order and I'm leaning towards choosing allpcb. It's a 6-layer, 6/6 trace and space, but the part I'm worried about are my vias. I followed Xilinx recommendations for fanout and used a 12mil drill/19mil pad. Unfortunately that leaves me with a 3.5mil annular ring; they say the minimum is 6mil. Has anyone had any experience pushing a design through with smaller than recommended annular ring? Routing is very tight and I definitely don't want to re-do it...
Thanks,
Stephen
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Minimum anular needs to be 6mil. They will reject it and say they cant' manufacture.
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Hi all,
Appreciate the good info here. I'm about to place a prototype order and I'm leaning towards choosing allpcb. It's a 6-layer, 6/6 trace and space, but the part I'm worried about are my vias. I followed Xilinx recommendations for fanout and used a 12mil drill/19mil pad. Unfortunately that leaves me with a 3.5mil annular ring; they say the minimum is 6mil. Has anyone had any experience pushing a design through with smaller than recommended annular ring? Routing is very tight and I definitely don't want to re-do it...
Thanks,
Stephens
They can probably do it, but it won’t be cheap. They have a special production line which goes down to 3mil/3mil, but as a ballpark I paid about 300 USD for a 40x40 board, 2 layer. Wouldn’t be surprised if yours was over 1k.
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Appreciate the good info here. I'm about to place a prototype order and I'm leaning towards choosing allpcb. It's a 6-layer, 6/6 trace and space, but the part I'm worried about are my vias. I followed Xilinx recommendations for fanout and used a 12mil drill/19mil pad. Unfortunately that leaves me with a 3.5mil annular ring; they say the minimum is 6mil. Has anyone had any experience pushing a design through with smaller than recommended annular ring? Routing is very tight and I definitely don't want to re-do it...
There's a poster here - asmi - he said he had successful results with 5mil annual rings for 6mil traces/specs (as I recall ordering from PCBWay). He also recommends (there is a thread here) OurPCB (WellPCB is likely the same or similar). They have better prices on 6-layer boards and, judging by his pictures, much better quality. If you wish, they have 3mil option. Also, looks like they can also do custom stack-ups.
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Appreciate the good info here. I'm about to place a prototype order and I'm leaning towards choosing allpcb. It's a 6-layer, 6/6 trace and space, but the part I'm worried about are my vias. I followed Xilinx recommendations for fanout and used a 12mil drill/19mil pad. Unfortunately that leaves me with a 3.5mil annular ring; they say the minimum is 6mil. Has anyone had any experience pushing a design through with smaller than recommended annular ring? Routing is very tight and I definitely don't want to re-do it...
There's a poster here - asmi - he said he had successful results with 5mil annual rings for 6mil traces/specs (as I recall ordering from PCBWay). He also recommends (there is a thread here) OurPCB (WellPCB is likely the same or similar). They have better prices on 6-layer boards and, judging by his pictures, much better quality. If you wish, they have 3mil option. Also, looks like they can also do custom stack-ups.
Yep, wellpcb/ourpcb is more cost effective, especially for multilayer boards, and offer better quality, tighter tolerances. The only downside is comparably high shipping cost and a bit longer production.
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We order six-layers and moved from AllPCB to WellPCB. Better quality, similar price and most important to us : much easier to get something slightly out of the norm.
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just a note for anyone having issues with their gerbers - I always use oshpark's website to check my gerbers prior to sending it to any pcb fab; just upload your zip and it will generate renderings of your board as well as tell you if anything is wrong with your files.
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Do any of these outfits do controlled impedance? Has anyone tried it?
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Do any of these outfits do controlled impedance? Has anyone tried it?
OurPCB does. There is my thread here where I describe my experience, as well as review of boards. DDR3-800 works fine, and so do 800 Mbps HDMI data lanes. Still working on HDL to verify 6G lanes of USB3. Overall impression is - they are awesome.
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Its very much a case of differnetn fabs for differnet jobs.
* If you want good quality, moderate requiremnets ( 6/6 spacing ) <4 layers, and good turn around, then Allpcb is where i go. they have been relaible and helpful, they know what their limits are, and are stickign to it. Good on them.
* For more tricky requirements ( 3/3 spacing, 4+ layers ) Blind/Buryed vias, pad in via all that stuff, then ourpcb seems to be the goer now.
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* If you want good quality, moderate requiremnets ( 6/6 spacing ) <4 layers, and good turn around, then Allpcb is where i go. they have been relaible and helpful, they know what their limits are, and are stickign to it. Good on them.
Even simple boards nowadays tend to have at least some 0.5 mm pitch QFPs or QFNs, and having solder stops is very useful. With the likes of allpcb, this has always been a hit-n-miss affair - sometimes you would get proper solder stops, on another run of the same board you won't. So I'd recommend OurPCB even for relatively simple boards if you're prepared to pay extra for higher quality (and wait a little longer). So for prototypes allpcb is fine, but for production run I'd go for higher quality - first of all because the price difference won't be so drastic for volumes, and secondly having reliable solder stops reduces chance of assembly failures due to shorts between pads. This is not a problem for prototype because you can spend some extra time and manually fix these issues should they occur, but fixing them in production is going to be more expensive.
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Even simple boards nowadays tend to have at least some 0.5 mm pitch QFPs or QFNs, and having solder stops is very useful. With the likes of allpcb, this has always been a hit-n-miss affair
I've done >60 orders with allpcb, the vast majority woudl have had parts that had .5 piched QFP's or QFNS on them. I've had just one order where thigns where not as good as it shoudl have been and that was recified and replacments sent within a few days. I can only talk from my experience, btu these guys have been reliable, honest and consistently have delivered on time for me. Thats what i need. The DFM for solder mask is 0.16mm. If you have smaller than that with the materials they use then you are likely to have mask depeel ( solder mask slivers ).. That can be really problematic. I assemble batches of 100s to low 1000's of boards, using a QFN-32 with 0.5mm pins. I dont' have mask between pins on these setups ( as per the manufacturers recommendations for these parts ). ( please see attached, the purple is the inverted mask )
- sometimes you would get proper solder stops, on another run of the same board you won't. So I'd recommend OurPCB even for relatively simple boards if you're prepared to pay extra for higher quality (and wait a little longer). So for prototypes allpcb is fine, but for production run I'd go for higher quality - first of all because the price difference won't be so drastic for volumes, and secondly having reliable solder stops reduces chance of assembly failures due to shorts between pads. This is not a problem for prototype because you can spend some extra time and manually fix these issues should they occur, but fixing them in production is going to be more expensive.
We realy have very few bridged pins, when solder paste is applied properly. Were you need to have very flat boards ( QFNS ) having a bit of solder mask lift is a serious issue. as the chip may not sit flat.
REally if your process is up to it, then you can make boards like this without any issue, and its very common praxctice.
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OurPCB does. There is my thread here where I describe my experience, as well as review of boards. DDR3-800 works fine, and so do 800 Mbps HDMI data lanes. Still working on HDL to verify 6G lanes of USB3. Overall impression is - they are awesome.
Great write up, thanks. I'll give them a try :-+
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Great write up, thanks. I'll give them a try :-+
A few things if I may:
1. When you design a stackup, make sure you use core and prepreg thicknesses that actually exist.
2. If you can, route the most critical hi-speed traces on the core (so that one side would be the signal layer, while the opposite one will be the reference plane to which these signals are referenced). The reason being is that core thickness is more stable and predictable, unlike prepregs, which final thickness tend to wary a little during lamination depending on a "fill factor" of a layer it's been laminated to.
3. Include a text file in you archive with gerbers which would list all requirements, explain what each file in the archive is for, desired stackup, requirements for controlled impedance, and anything else you think might be useful for them to have in order to manufacture the board the way you want. If you want, I can post the file I've sent so you will have a sample.
4. Once they complete pre-production step, they will send you production files for your review and approval, a document with field solver sim results that will show what impedance your traces will actually have taking into account materials they are going to use, as well as any questions CAM engineer might have. This is your final chance to verify that everything is correct, but keep in mind that these gerbers are the actual files that they will make photo masks from, and so traces on them are going to be a bit wider than what they should be (to account for some over-etching) - and consequently spacing will be a bit smaller, but this is how the process works and should not cause any problems. Again, if you're curious what this looks like, let me know and I will post the files I received so that you will get an idea of what you're up against.
5. To verify that the layers order is correct, you might want to include this kind of thing in your design:
(https://i.imgur.com/kVoBuMU.png)
Here I have a layer number in each copper (each layer only has a single digit with layer number, and they are offset so that you see them next to each other) with soldermasks removed from the area, so that when you have a board in your hands, you can easily see layer order by looking at this area in bright light - the deeper the layer is, the more faint the number appear. This is a trick that I've seen in some youtube video, and it allows you to easily and non-destructively confirm that layer order is correct, so I now always include it in all my designs as a sanity check. Not that I don't trust them (so far I don't have any reason to doubt their professionalism), but we're all human beings, and human beings do make mistakes every once in a while, so this small element will prevent a major headache to debug the board only to find out that the order is messed up.
For 6 layer boards, their production time was 6 business days since I approved production files in both my orders. Preproduction step took 1 or 2 days in my experience from the time I paid the invoice.
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I ordered some PCBs from ALLPCB recently and having not used them before I thought I'd give my impressions. Overall I'm quite pleased. I went for them because their price was within a dollar of the cheapest and so the free shipping made the choice a no-brainer.
Good:
- Turnaround was very fast. Ordered on the 7th, received today on the 11th. Four working days including shipping (via TNT).
- Ordered 20 boards, got 22.
- Quality of routing is clean and sharp, no rough edges.
- Silkscreen is nice; without magnification you wouldn't notice it's done via inkjet-style process.
Bad:
- Smoothness of HASL very hit-and-miss. Many pads very uneven with noticeable blobby-ness of solder. Doesn't concern me, though, as I'll be hand assembling.
- Hole registration on 3 out of the 22 was very off. A few non-plated holes essentially touching the surrounding ground plane (despite 15 mil clearance). Will probably not be able to use those three boards, as really the only separation for pins through these holes will be the solder mask.
- No SSL/HTTPS anywhere on their website. :palm: You can bet I made damn sure to use a distinct password that's not shared with anywhere else!
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I've found the same regarding HASL, though it's something that's far from being unique to AllPCB.
I tend to use a gold finish anyway. Flatness is guaranteed, and it's much easier to spot any missed solder joints when hand assembling.
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I've found the same regarding HASL, though it's something that's far from being unique to AllPCB.
I know HASL is never supposed to be perfectly flat, but all other HASL boards I've ever had from several other manufacturers have had very nicely level HASL finishes. Maybe I've just been lucky so far. ^-^
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The very best HASL is not flat enough for doing QFN's and things that need high degrees of coplanairty.
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just a note for anyone having issues with their gerbers - I always use oshpark's website to check my gerbers prior to sending it to any pcb fab; just upload your zip and it will generate renderings of your board as well as tell you if anything is wrong with your files.
I do too. But hope you order from them sometimes as well. Otherwise they might not be there.
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I do too. But hope you order from them sometimes as well. Otherwise they might not be there.
It's hard not to. You cannot beat OSHPark - they have the best quality and excellent prices (unless your board is bigger). I have just ordered a board for $4 with free shipping!
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I saw an add somewhere today for $2 for 10 boards including shipping..
Wonder when they pcb makers will start paying us to taking their boards off them. Based on the rate of price decrease, i figure it shoudl be this year sometime.
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I saw an add somewhere today for $2 for 10 boards including shipping..
Wonder when they pcb makers will start paying us to taking their boards off them. Based on the rate of price decrease, i figure it shoudl be this year sometime.
Strange thing is this seems to be only for buyers outside of china; within china every single vendor has the exact same price of 50 rmb ($8) for a 2 layer 10x10 cm pcb (not including shipping), and prices seem to only go up with time. I suspect government subsidies to dump cheap goods on the market to drive western pcb houses out of business.
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With my long experience in China and in this industry, you think too much.
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speaking of HASL and silkscreen
the photo with two boards is allpcb to the left, jlcpcb to the right
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Is the SS issue the same on all the PCBs in that batch? They clearly use some sort of "dot matrix" printer for the SS. I have gotten a number of boards with less than ideal printing but nothing quite as bad as what you are showing.
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I've got some allpcb boards, that the Silk screen is just awesome. One thing is that i dont' use Stroke fonts. My tend to use Arial, and its very readable.
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Is the SS issue the same on all the PCBs in that batch? They clearly use some sort of "dot matrix" printer for the SS. I have gotten a number of boards with less than ideal printing but nothing quite as bad as what you are showing.
I ordered 10pcs and received 13, the problem was in 6 of them
The other 7 were ok but not as good as jlcpcb board next to them
Its not "dissapointing" its juust not good.... yes they might be functional and yes they might be prototyping pcbs etc but it is not what you pay for anyway and not what you expect!
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I've got some allpcb boards, that the Silk screen is just awesome. One thing is that i dont' use Stroke fonts. My tend to use Arial, and its very readable.
Same PCB font, gerber etc submitted to two manufacturers with same specs and all.. and comparable price too
Different pcb material, different solder-mask color (ok thats not an issue anyway!), different silkscreen method obviously but one came as you see, the other nice and smooth and clear to read even for their own batch code which btw, is hald the size of that on allpcb pcbs!
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Supposedly since February 18 that the PCBs are ready. The package was only received at the post office on February 24 and since March 1 that is waiting for shipment from HK ... 6 days have passed!
Your order obviously hit the post office right as Chinese New Year started. Both China and Honk Kong seem to just grind to a halt during that period, so I wouldn't let this experience put you off in future!
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I just got some boards back from them today, and I'm pleasantly surprised (for the most part). It took 6 calendar days from order to delivery which I think is the fastest I've ever gotten boards delivered from out-of-country. I have a few 0.5mm QFNs and QFPs in the design, but otherwise I stuck with 8/8mil rules to keep my options open. While everything looks good electrically, they do seem to have issues with very small solder mask bridges, and it looks like the soldermask is undercut/over-etched by a mil or so, not enough to bother me.
I usually expand the mask a few mils for the cheap Chinese fabs anyway given their (often) questionable registration, but it looks like they're registered the resist well. I'm also happy with the drill hits, which look to be within a mil of center of the vias/pads. The through-hole plating looks good too, but I haven't sectioned the board or anything.