First boards from ALLPCB.COM - Postive expereince.

[mrpackethead]

Its very much a case of differnetn fabs for differnet jobs.

* If you want good quality, moderate requiremnets ( 6/6 spacing )  <4 layers, and good turn around, then Allpcb is where i go.   they have been relaible and helpful,  they know what their limits are, and are stickign to it.  Good on them.
* For more tricky requirements ( 3/3 spacing, 4+ layers ) Blind/Buryed vias, pad in via all that stuff,  then ourpcb seems to be the goer now.

[asmi]

* If you want good quality, moderate requiremnets ( 6/6 spacing )  <4 layers, and good turn around, then Allpcb is where i go.   they have been relaible and helpful,  they know what their limits are, and are stickign to it.  Good on them.

Even simple boards nowadays tend to have at least some 0.5 mm pitch QFPs or QFNs, and having solder stops is very useful. With the likes of allpcb, this has always been a hit-n-miss affair - sometimes you would get proper solder stops, on another run of the same board you won't. So I'd recommend OurPCB even for relatively simple boards if you're prepared to pay extra for higher quality (and wait a little longer). So for prototypes allpcb is fine, but for production run I'd go for higher quality - first of all because the price difference won't be so drastic for volumes, and secondly having reliable solder stops reduces chance of assembly failures due to shorts between pads. This is not a problem for prototype because you can spend some extra time and manually fix these issues should they occur, but fixing them in production is going to be more expensive.

[mrpackethead]

Even simple boards nowadays tend to have at least some 0.5 mm pitch QFPs or QFNs, and having solder stops is very useful. With the likes of allpcb, this has always been a hit-n-miss affair

I've done >60 orders with allpcb, the vast majority woudl have had parts that had .5 piched QFP's or QFNS on them.     I've had just one order where thigns where not as good as it shoudl have been and that was recified and replacments sent within a few days.    I can only talk from my experience, btu these guys have been reliable, honest and consistently have delivered on time for me.    Thats what i need.     The DFM for solder mask is 0.16mm. If you have smaller than that with the materials they use then you are likely to have mask depeel ( solder mask slivers )..  That can be really problematic.      I assemble batches of 100s to low 1000's of boards, using a QFN-32 with 0.5mm pins.  I dont' have mask between pins on these setups ( as per the manufacturers recommendations for these parts ).  ( please see attached, the purple is the inverted mask )

- sometimes you would get proper solder stops, on another run of the same board you won't. So I'd recommend OurPCB even for relatively simple boards if you're prepared to pay extra for higher quality (and wait a little longer). So for prototypes allpcb is fine, but for production run I'd go for higher quality - first of all because the price difference won't be so drastic for volumes, and secondly having reliable solder stops reduces chance of assembly failures due to shorts between pads. This is not a problem for prototype because you can spend some extra time and manually fix these issues should they occur, but fixing them in production is going to be more expensive.

We realy have very few bridged pins, when solder paste is applied properly.  Were you need to have very flat boards ( QFNS ) having a bit of solder mask lift is a serious issue.  as the chip may not sit flat.   

REally if your process is up to it, then you can make boards like this without any issue, and its very common praxctice.

[AndyC_772]

OurPCB does. There is my thread here where I describe my experience, as well as review of boards. DDR3-800 works fine, and so do 800 Mbps HDMI data lanes. Still working on HDL to verify 6G lanes of USB3. Overall impression is - they are awesome.

Great write up, thanks. I'll give them a try 

[asmi]

Great write up, thanks. I'll give them a try 

A few things if I may:
1. When you design a stackup, make sure you use core and prepreg thicknesses that actually exist.
2. If you can, route the most critical hi-speed traces on the core (so that one side would be the signal layer, while the opposite one will be the reference plane to which these signals are referenced). The reason being is that core thickness is more stable and predictable, unlike prepregs, which final thickness tend to wary a little during lamination depending on a "fill factor" of a layer it's been laminated to.
3. Include a text file in you archive with gerbers which would list all requirements, explain what each file in the archive is for, desired stackup, requirements for controlled impedance, and anything else you think might be useful for them to have in order to manufacture the board the way you want. If you want, I can post the file I've sent so you will have a sample.
4. Once they complete pre-production step, they will send you production files for your review and approval, a document with field solver sim results that will show what impedance your traces will actually have taking into account materials they are going to use, as well as any questions CAM engineer might have. This is your final chance to verify that everything is correct, but keep in mind that these gerbers are the actual files that they will make photo masks from, and so traces on them are going to be a bit wider than what they should be (to account for some over-etching) - and consequently spacing will be a bit smaller, but this is how the process works and should not cause any problems. Again, if you're curious what this looks like, let me know and I will post the files I received so that you will get an idea of what you're up against.
5. To verify that the layers order is correct, you might want to include this kind of thing in your design:

Here I have a layer number in each copper (each layer only has a single digit with layer number, and they are offset so that you see them next to each other) with soldermasks removed from the area, so that when you have a board in your hands, you can easily see layer order by looking at this area in bright light - the deeper the layer is, the more faint the number appear. This is a trick that I've seen in some youtube video, and it allows you to easily and non-destructively confirm that layer order is correct, so I now always include it in all my designs as a sanity check. Not that I don't trust them (so far I don't have any reason to doubt their professionalism), but we're all human beings, and human beings do make mistakes every once in a while, so this small element will prevent a major headache to debug the board only to find out that the order is messed up.

For 6 layer boards, their production time was 6 business days since I approved production files in both my orders. Preproduction step took 1 or 2 days in my experience from the time I paid the invoice.

[HwAoRrDk]

I ordered some PCBs from ALLPCB recently and having not used them before I thought I'd give my impressions. Overall I'm quite pleased. I went for them because their price was within a dollar of the cheapest and so the free shipping made the choice a no-brainer.

Good:
- Turnaround was very fast. Ordered on the 7th, received today on the 11th. Four working days including shipping (via TNT).
- Ordered 20 boards, got 22.
- Quality of routing is clean and sharp, no rough edges.
- Silkscreen is nice; without magnification you wouldn't notice it's done via inkjet-style process.

Bad:
- Smoothness of HASL very hit-and-miss. Many pads very uneven with noticeable blobby-ness of solder. Doesn't concern me, though, as I'll be hand assembling.
- Hole registration on 3 out of the 22 was very off. A few non-plated holes essentially touching the surrounding ground plane (despite 15 mil clearance). Will probably not be able to use those three boards, as really the only separation for pins through these holes will be the solder mask.
- No SSL/HTTPS anywhere on their website. You can bet I made damn sure to use a distinct password that's not shared with anywhere else!

[AndyC_772]

I've found the same regarding HASL, though it's something that's far from being unique to AllPCB.

I tend to use a gold finish anyway. Flatness is guaranteed, and it's much easier to spot any missed solder joints when hand assembling.

[HwAoRrDk]

I've found the same regarding HASL, though it's something that's far from being unique to AllPCB.

I know HASL is never supposed to be perfectly flat, but all other HASL boards I've ever had from several other manufacturers have had very nicely level HASL finishes. Maybe I've just been lucky so far.

[mrpackethead]

The very best HASL is not flat enough for doing QFN's and things that need high degrees of coplanairty.

[phil from seattle]

just a note for anyone having issues with their gerbers - I always use oshpark's website to check my gerbers prior to sending it to any pcb fab; just upload your zip and it will generate renderings of your board as well as tell you if anything is wrong with your files.

I do too. But hope you order from them sometimes as well. Otherwise they might not be there.

[NorthGuy]

I do too. But hope you order from them sometimes as well. Otherwise they might not be there.

It's hard not to. You cannot beat OSHPark - they have the best quality and excellent prices (unless your board is bigger). I have just ordered a board for $4 with free shipping!

[mrpackethead]

I saw an add somewhere today for $2 for 10 boards including shipping..

Wonder when they pcb makers will start paying us to taking their boards off them.   Based on the rate of price decrease, i figure it shoudl be this year sometime.

[xaxaxa]

I saw an add somewhere today for $2 for 10 boards including shipping..

Wonder when they pcb makers will start paying us to taking their boards off them.   Based on the rate of price decrease, i figure it shoudl be this year sometime.

Strange thing is this seems to be only for buyers outside of china; within china every single vendor has the exact same price of 50 rmb ($8) for a 2 layer 10x10 cm pcb (not including shipping), and prices seem to only go up with time. I suspect government subsidies to dump cheap goods on the market to drive western pcb houses out of business.

[noras]

With my long experience in China and in this industry, you think too much.

[soubitos]

speaking of HASL and silkscreen
the photo with two boards is allpcb to the left, jlcpcb to the right

[phil from seattle]

Is the SS issue the same on all the PCBs in that batch?  They clearly use some sort of "dot matrix" printer for the SS.  I have gotten a number of boards with less than ideal printing but nothing quite as bad as what you are showing.

[mrpackethead]

I've got some allpcb boards, that the Silk screen is just awesome.   One thing is that i dont' use Stroke fonts. My tend to use Arial, and its very readable.

[soubitos]

Is the SS issue the same on all the PCBs in that batch?  They clearly use some sort of "dot matrix" printer for the SS.  I have gotten a number of boards with less than ideal printing but nothing quite as bad as what you are showing.

I ordered 10pcs and received 13, the problem was in 6 of them
The other 7 were ok but not as good as jlcpcb board next to them
Its not "dissapointing" its juust not good.... yes they might be functional and yes they might be prototyping pcbs etc but it is not what you pay for anyway and not what you expect!

[soubitos]

I've got some allpcb boards, that the Silk screen is just awesome.   One thing is that i dont' use Stroke fonts. My tend to use Arial, and its very readable.

Same PCB font, gerber etc submitted to two manufacturers with same specs and all.. and comparable price too
Different pcb material, different solder-mask color (ok thats not an issue anyway!), different silkscreen method obviously but one came as you see, the other nice and smooth and clear to read even for their own batch code which btw, is hald the size of that on allpcb pcbs!

[sensors]

Supposedly since February 18 that the PCBs are ready. The package was only received at the post office on February 24 and since March 1 that is waiting for shipment from HK ... 6 days have passed!

Your order obviously hit the post office right as Chinese New Year started. Both China and Honk Kong seem to just grind to a halt during that period, so I wouldn't let this experience put you off in future!

[CParish]

I just got some boards back from them today, and I'm pleasantly surprised (for the most part).  It took 6 calendar days from order to delivery which I think is the fastest I've ever gotten boards delivered from out-of-country.  I have a few 0.5mm QFNs and QFPs in the design, but otherwise I stuck with 8/8mil rules to keep my options open.  While everything looks good electrically, they do seem to have issues with very small solder mask bridges, and it looks like the soldermask is undercut/over-etched by a mil or so, not enough to bother me.

I usually expand the mask a few mils for the cheap Chinese fabs anyway given their (often) questionable registration, but it looks like they're registered the resist well.  I'm also happy with the drill hits, which look to be within a mil of center of the vias/pads.  The through-hole plating looks good too, but I haven't sectioned the board or anything.