just solder 460 Vapor Phase Oven

[fluxgate]

I'm currently searching for a vapor phase oven for our little research institute, with many students soldering they first PCB.
Our current reflow oven does not get hot enough for lead free soldering paste and we also have temperature sensitive components like photodiodes and relays in plastic housings which don't really like my hot air gun.

I've found these products which are very expensive for being advanced deep fryers but are affordable for small companies:
vaporflow 480  ->  3.273 €
Just Solder 460 -> 4.165€
https://eleshop.de/vaporflow-480-dampfphasen-reflow-ofen.html
https://www.photocad.de/onlineshop/dampfphasen-lotanlage-just-solder-460-hersteller-bsc-solder-systems.html?srsltid=AfmBOooyzFo0wYOwKEDQ9w-10WbvDkw0QSvO71BceOQVz15nehGQ6G9Q


I was about to order the vaporflow but then found the "Just Solder 460".
The "Just Solder 460" seems newly developed and is more expensive but also looks a bit more sophisticated with the security features and window to inspect the soldering process.
Does somebody here own this machine or has any thoughts on them?

[Doctorandus_P]

A while ago I thought about gong vapour phase and I looked a bit into the equipment. The liquid is quite expensive, but apparently it's not such a big issue because the loss of liquid is minimal during a soldering cycle.

But the ovens themselves are ridiculously priced IMHO. Those ovens are not much more then a horeca pan with a heating element and thermostat. That's EUR 50 worth of hardware. Add some extra markup for a fancy box, a TFT with some settings and the low volume production, and that would get it somewhere around EUR 500. But the eleshop version is over EUR 3000. Just ridiculous. Because horeca pans are cheap and easily obtainable, this makes it a good candidate to DIY.  If you want to DIY, then I do recommend to do a bit of research first. There are some details that you have to get right to do it properly.

One thing that could help with recovering the liquid is to put a tube around the top of the lid, and have some (cold) water flow though it. The liquid will then condense and flow back instead of escaping as gas through the gap in the lid.

Another detail is to put the lid under an angle. Goal is that drops do not fall off in the center, but are guided to the side so they don't fall on the PCB.

Yet another detail is to build it in such a way that the complete heating element is in contact with the fluid. The heating element may not come in contact with the gas, as overheating the vapour can lead to decomposition of the vapor, and that releases very nasty chemicals. Keeping the heating element submerged in the liquid prevents that, without having to use a very fancy thermostat.

Edit / Addition:

I've been looking at bunch of pictures of these things, and some of the cross section diagrams show cooling coils, but I think those are mostly used for the bigger industrial systems, and not for the EUR 3000 "lab scale" systems.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=vapor+phase+soldering+machine&iar=images&t=h_

[wraper]

I'm 95% confident that Just Solder (BSC SOLDER SYTEMS) is a phoenixing of IMDES shit.

[temperance]

The problem with vapour phase soldering is tombstoning due to uneven heat distribution across the PCB surface.



11 minutes in the video.

[wraper]

The problem with vapour phase soldering is tombstoning due to uneven heat distribution across the PCB surface.

Tombstoning is a real issue, uneven heat distribution claim is an exact apposite to the reality. Vapor phase gets the most even heating as vapor has a lot of thermal mass. The problem that causes tombstoning is an extremely rapid temperature rise once vapor layer reaches the cold PCB. It's possible to mostly mitigate it with no special preheater HW using heating profile trickery to get PCB hot enough before vapor actually reaches it, ensure slow vapor rise. Also solder paste makes a lot of difference. I get barely any tombstoning with Chipquick SMD291SNL while there was still a significant amount with Henkel GC-10.

[temperance]

Tombstoning is a real issue, uneven heat distribution claim is an exact apposite to the reality. Vapor phase gets the most even heating as vapor has a lot of thermal mass. The problem that causes tombstoning is an extremely rapid temperature rise once vapor layer reaches the PCB.

Isn't the rapid heating the cause of the uneven heat distribution? Pre-heating should be done anyhow if you don't want to let steam vapour damage the PCB and components when it can't escape fast enough. (NPTH degassing holes can help a bit.)

There are also special solder pastes around that avoid Tombstoning. I haven't checked the spec sheets of those. But their shelf life might be a problem for proto typing and small series.

As stated by Doc P It is not too expensive to give it a try with a sauce pan. That's what those machines use anyhow and simple on/off control is very easy to implement.

[wraper]

When using Galden LS230, vapor rapidly condensates on anything that's below 230^oC. Vapor temperature is always the same, only its layer thickness changes. The problem is that solder goes from particle form into a full liquid in a fraction of a second. Basically there is no partial melt state that would hold down the part. If some solder joint melts say 0.1 seconds sooner, tombstoning may happen. What I did with my custom controller is to let vapor rise but not quite reach the PCB. Also when it goes to the final power blast, heating fully shouts down well before solder melts to minimize galden escape and condensation on the lid.

[tooki]

I'm currently searching for a vapor phase oven for our little research institute, with many students soldering they first PCB.
Our current reflow oven does not get hot enough for lead free soldering paste and we also have temperature sensitive components like photodiodes and relays in plastic housings which don't really like my hot air gun.

I've found these products which are very expensive for being advanced deep fryers but are affordable for small companies:
vaporflow 480  ->  3.273 €
Just Solder 460 -> 4.165€
https://eleshop.de/vaporflow-480-dampfphasen-reflow-ofen.html
https://www.photocad.de/onlineshop/dampfphasen-lotanlage-just-solder-460-hersteller-bsc-solder-systems.html?srsltid=AfmBOooyzFo0wYOwKEDQ9w-10WbvDkw0QSvO71BceOQVz15nehGQ6G9Q


I was about to order the vaporflow but then found the "Just Solder 460".
The "Just Solder 460" seems newly developed and is more expensive but also looks a bit more sophisticated with the security features and window to inspect the soldering process.
Does somebody here own this machine or has any thoughts on them?

I’d probably look at getting a better oven instead.

Another department at work (where I used to work) got what I think is a smaller version Vaporflow, and they’ve been underwhelmed by it, and continue to do most of their reflow in DIY reflow oven made from a toaster oven and a commercial controller from Beta-Layout.

Lead-free shouldn’t be a problem with a halfway decent reflow oven. What are you using now?

[woody]

Being the owner of a VaporFlow 275 I can attest that tombstoning almost never happens and when it does, it has to do with the (state of the) solder paste used. With older paste I see this sometimes, with fresh paste never. I use TS391SNL50 and a slightly adapted solder profile, where I tried to mimic a soak phase.

As for the remarks that the 275 is just a glorified horeca pan, yes, there is certainly truth in that. Heating up Galden is not rocket science. It took quite some self-convincing for me to buy one, as I was reasonable happy with my modified toaster oven. But after using it on and off since 2022 I can say that it is very convenient to have a device in my shed that enables me to just place a PCB in it, press start and 15 minutes later I have a perfectly soldered PCB in my hands. So yes, it might be expensive and simple, but the oven is sturdy, neatly built (opposed to the Imdes device), does what it says on the tin and comes with good support. To me it was worth the expense.

[temperance]

I asked Eleshop about their VaporFlow and tombstoning. They answered me: we don't see that problem but we are working with a solder paste manufacturer on a formula which avoids tombstoning.

So, they don't see tombstoning, but they are working on the solder paste formula. That wasn't really the answer I was looking for of course. As such, I bought a normal reflow oven.

@Woody

Thanks for the more convincing feedback.

[tooki]

One thing that makes me question the superiority of vapor-phase reflow is the fact that it’s not even remotely a new technology — in fact, it was one of the earliest PCB reflow methods — and that infrared and hot-air reflow ovens actually came out later and displaced vapor-phase and hot-oil reflow.

[woody]

One thing that makes me question the superiority of vapor-phase reflow is the fact that it’s not even remotely a new technology — in fact, it was one of the earliest PCB reflow methods — and that infrared and hot-air reflow ovens actually came out later and displaced vapor-phase and hot-oil reflow.

Those newer techologies might perform better on a factory scale with continous production but for my use, reflowing maybe 20 PCBs (lead-free) per year on the edge of a workbench, VP is way less hassle than IR. Given that you use fresh solderpaste it just works. Larger black or metal components that in my cheap IR oven often gave me trouble come out fine in my cheap VP oven (cheap being relative). Silkscreens that brown a bit in IR stay white in VP. The horror stories about the use of expensive Galden turn out moot: I am about halfway through my first 500ml in nearly 4 years. So for small scale use the older tech might make more sense.

[temperance]

I didn't know that vapor-phase reflow soldering pre-dates IR hot air reflow soldering.

In this hobby machines you have no control or almost no control over the heating profile. A bad idea when you have boards and components with moisture trapped in them. The Eleshop vapor phase manual is very empty on that part.

Industrial machines pre-heat boards in one chamber, then move the PCB to another chamber for soldering after which they transfer the board to yet another chamber for controlled cool down. Those multi chamber machines are pretty expensive. If you search EEVblog you can find some drawings of more complex vapor phase machines with a lift to implement pre heating and controlled cooling. I don't know if the person who made those drawings build the machine. It probably requires some IR or hot air if you want to achieve proper pre heating like you see in industrial vapor phase machines.

Also, vapor phase can't be used with components with cavities. Some manufacturers of modules with shielding cans explicitly state to not use vapor phase soldering.

[Doctorandus_P]

One thing that makes me question the superiority of vapor-phase reflow ...

That's the wrong kind of thinking. For mass production, the "lowest cost per unit" always wins, even if it's hard to control, because production parameters can be tightly controlled and optimized in a big factory. It's simply not comparable at all with prototype production or small batch production. For those, the set of relevant variables are very different, like ease of control, simple and quick to setup, minimal man hours. And sometimes secondary factors, such as easy to move or store when it's not used. The cost per soldering is not important (within some limitation).

In the Marco Reps video reposted by temperance, Marco had two tombstones, and that was on a hand pasted, hand placed board and probably the very first vapor soldering attempt. Marco used a real horeca pan (troth for humans  ) simply placed on top of a (soldering) hot plate which he happened to have available. I actually call that pretty good.

Temperature profile can be controlled in two ways in a vapor phase oven. The industrial units have a cooling zone in the top, and the PCB is lowered into the pan. (which has a sort of static temperature gradient) With the "prototype ovens", the temperature profile is modified by the used heating power.

[temperance]

Temperature profile can be controlled in two ways in a vapor phase oven. The industrial units have a cooling zone in the top, and the PCB is lowered into the pan. (which has a sort of static temperature gradient) With the "prototype ovens", the temperature profile is modified by the used heating power.

That is then problem with the Eleshop vapor phase unit. The manual is very unclear about all this and Eleshop didn't answer my questions. The answer I got: The galden doesn't require a profile...

The manual can be found here: https://storage.eleshop.eu/files/Vaporflow_user_manual_v2.0.pdf

Quote from this manual: You can manually set a heating or a cooling setpoint by going to the soldering menu and
pressing the “manual” button.

It states setpoint and not setpoints.

Marco used a real horeca pan

The Eleshop oven and some others are just that in a case.

[tooki]

One thing that makes me question the superiority of vapor-phase reflow ...

That's the wrong kind of thinking. For mass production, the "lowest cost per unit" always wins, even if it's hard to control, because production parameters can be tightly controlled and optimized in a big factory. It's simply not comparable at all with prototype production or small batch production. For those, the set of relevant variables are very different, like ease of control, simple and quick to setup, minimal man hours. And sometimes secondary factors, such as easy to move or store when it's not used. The cost per soldering is not important (within some limitation).

In the Marco Reps video reposted by temperance, Marco had two tombstones, and that was on a hand pasted, hand placed board and probably the very first vapor soldering attempt. Marco used a real horeca pan (troth for humans  ) simply placed on top of a (soldering) hot plate which he happened to have available. I actually call that pretty good.

Temperature profile can be controlled in two ways in a vapor phase oven. The industrial units have a cooling zone in the top, and the PCB is lowered into the pan. (which has a sort of static temperature gradient) With the "prototype ovens", the temperature profile is modified by the used heating power.

I should have written “another reason”. The fact that I’ve seen multiple reports of prototypers not being impressed makes me think that it’s not thaaaaat much better for that, either.

Sure, mass production is cost sensitive. But given that infrared/hot air reflow (henceforth “oven reflow”) seems to work great for the vast majority of assemblies suggests it’s not that inferior a method, and I don’t think one can reasonably call it “hard to control”.

[woody]

That is then problem with the Eleshop vapor phase unit. The manual is very unclear about all this and Eleshop didn't answer my questions. The answer I got: The galden doesn't require a profile...

I do not agree with Eleshop's statement that Galden does not require a profile. And I do not agree with the observation that it is impossible to create a profile for their device.

A while ago I created a profile for the VP275 oven that mimics a 'soak' phase. See the attachments for the two graphs ('aangepast' means adapted). The temperature, time and duty cycle measurements are taken from the log file the oven creates every run. The temp sensor is bolted at PCB height inside the pan. The only downside I could see is that the total process takes a bit more time, around 1200 seconds, where the original 'no profile' process takes around 900 seconds. The PCB is subjected to 150+ temperatures longer in the adapted profile, the 200+ time however is equal.

[wraper]

A while ago I created a profile for the VP275 oven that mimics a 'soak' phase. See the attachments for the two graphs ('aangepast' means adapted). The temperature, time and duty cycle measurements are taken from the log file the oven creates every run. The temp sensor is bolted at PCB height inside the pan. The only downside I could see is that the total process takes a bit more time, around 1200 seconds, where the original 'no profile' process takes around 900 seconds. The PCB is subjected to 150+ temperatures longer in the adapted profile, the 200+ time however is equal.

That's basically what I did with my shitty IMDES Mini Condens IT, in my case it needed a controller replacement. Although you could get it to soak temperature faster and keep PCB at that a longer time for it to look more like a recmmended profile. My oven blasts with max heat until sensor reaches particular temperature. Like 80% of the total power applied during the cycle. Then another short burst + the final push. I don't really remember the details as it was a quick half-arsed job with no display, but as you may know nothing is more permanent than a temporary solution.

[temperance]

Hi Woody,

thanks again for the reply. Indeed, you do need a profile. But as I stated, the manual of the Eleshop machine is a bit unclear on this part. (I quoted the relevant part of the manual)

As such I asked Eleshop to clarify this. But the response didn't answer my question.

A while ago I created a profile for the VP275 oven that mimics a 'soak' phase. See the attachments for the two graphs ('aangepast' means adapted). The temperature, time and duty cycle measurements are taken from the log file the oven creates every run. The temp sensor is bolted at PCB height inside the pan. The only downside I could see is that the total process takes a bit more time, around 1200 seconds, where the original 'no profile' process takes around 900 seconds. The PCB is subjected to 150+ temperatures longer in the adapted profile, the 200+ time however is equal.

How did you accomplish this? Because from my understanding you can only change the power input, final temperature and time to stay at the required maximum temperature of a cycle. Or does the software support the definition of multiple phases in one cycle like pre-heat, soak, reflow?

I have set the pre-heating time of my IR reflow oven slightly longer and at a lower temperature such that trapped moisture has more time to gently evaporate. I don't think this can be done with the Eleshop machine.

[Kjelt]

But given that infrared/hot air reflow (henceforth “oven reflow”) seems to work great for the vast majority of assemblies suggests it’s not that inferior a method, and I don’t think one can reasonably call it “hard to control”.

I know that you know this, still think below is fair to mention it in comparison to the reflow oven of < $2000.

There is a big difference between on one hand, the industrial infrared ovens and the smaller cheaper infrared ovens.
The industrial ovens have moving pcb transport through multiple ovens that each maintain a fixed temperature and the combination of the serial placement of these multiple temperature ovens mimics the reflow profile. Price is >$5000 for the set.
The cheaper smaller infrared ovens <$1500 of which I own one, do have an issue of perfectly matching the reflow profile and also in evenly distrubution of the IR heat.
The reason is that these smaller ovens have IR radiators that directly radiate to the pcb, because if they did not, they can not mimic the steep reflow profile step from soak/preheat to solder (160C -> 240C in what is it 20/30 seconds or so). And then without overshooting too much.
The result is that this is visible on the pcb where sometimes brownish burnmarks are observed and some fragile components need aluminium foil protection against melting.
 

[woody]

With the VP275 you can set different phases in a profile. Every phase sets either heating or cooling, both with a settable duty cycle (which I found works better for heating than for cooling). Per phase you also set either a number of seconds or a temperature setpoint. Reaching either of these ends the phase and steps to the next one.

Based on that I set a number of phases. From memory and reading the graph (and don't ask why I am unable to use the exact profile; I managed to lose it in a silly way )

- Heater 100% and wait for temperature to reach 50º
- Upon reaching 50º switch the heater down to 7% and wait for the temperature to reach 75º.
- Upon reaching 75º switch the heater up to 45% and wait for temperature to reach 140º.
- Upon reaching 140º switch the heater down to 30% and wait for temperature to reach 180º
- Upon reaching 180º switch the heater up to 90% until temp reaches 220º
- Upon reaching 220º cool down until temp is 40º

The trick is to cater for the delayed reaction of the temperature to changes in duty cycle of the heater due to thermal mass.

It took me the best part of a day to create the 'aangepast' profile and so far I have not found the time or will to recreate it (used one of the default profiles since). But it absolutely can be done.

[temperance]

With the VP275 you can set different phases in a profile.

That's all I wanted to know some years ago but I never got a proper answer from Eleshop. To bad because now I have an IR oven with the problem mentioned by Kjelt.

The reason is that these smaller ovens have IR radiators that directly radiate to the pcb, because if they did not, they can not mimic the steep reflow profile step from soak/preheat to solder (160C -> 240C in what is it 20/30 seconds or so). And then without overshooting too much.

After spending some time tweaking the profile I got it to solder properly without too much overshoot.

[fluxgate]

The Problem with a DIY Solution for me is that the machine needs to be usuable by bachelor students, with little supervision.

I'm 95% confident that Just Solder (BSC SOLDER SYTEMS) is a phoenixing of IMDES shit.

The Just Solder Machine doesn't seem to similiar to the Imdes Machines, different Size, Display and the additional Lid mechanisms.

Some tombstombs on a PCBs are not a dealbreaker for me, I get them with my current setup sometimes anyway.
What I really hate are bridges on small pitch parts and bad solder joints which look good at first glance

[wraper]

The Problem with a DIY Solution for me is that the machine needs to be usuable by bachelor students, with little supervision.

I'm 95% confident that Just Solder (BSC SOLDER SYTEMS) is a phoenixing of IMDES shit.

The Just Solder Machine doesn't seem to similiar to the Imdes Machines, different Size, Display and the additional Lid mechanisms.

Some tombstombs on a PCBs are not a dealbreaker for me, I get them with my current setup sometimes anyway.
What I really hate are bridges on small pitch parts and bad solder joints which look good at first glance

I don't say they sell exactly the same machines. But they have a lot of resemblance in construction, particular poor engineering solutions (like lid switch, removable horeca lid with handles, and placement/attachment of glass window). They sell identical chip lifting tool as in the video. And it's a German company with registered business address about 70km away from defunct IMDES Creative Solutions.

Some tombstombs on a PCBs are not a dealbreaker for me, I get them with my current setup sometimes anyway.

I doubt you'd like to repair half of the boards which are above 100 parts. Not to say sometimes it's not very obvious, part may hang just above the pad.

What I really hate are bridges on small pitch parts

Oven won't help with that. It's a solder paste application and component placement issue.

and bad solder joints which look good at first glance

You did not tell what exactly you mean by bad solder joints but most likely it's not an oven issue either.

[4Project]

With the VP275 you can set different phases in a profile. Every phase sets either heating or cooling, both with a settable duty cycle (which I found works better for heating than for cooling). Per phase you also set either a number of seconds or a temperature setpoint. Reaching either of these ends the phase and steps to the next one.

Based on that I set a number of phases. From memory and reading the graph (and don't ask why I am unable to use the exact profile; I managed to lose it in a silly way )

- Heater 100% and wait for temperature to reach 50º
- Upon reaching 50º switch the heater down to 7% and wait for the temperature to reach 75º.
- Upon reaching 75º switch the heater up to 45% and wait for temperature to reach 140º.
- Upon reaching 140º switch the heater down to 30% and wait for temperature to reach 180º
- Upon reaching 180º switch the heater up to 90% until temp reaches 220º
- Upon reaching 220º cool down until temp is 40º

The trick is to cater for the delayed reaction of the temperature to changes in duty cycle of the heater due to thermal mass.

It took me the best part of a day to create the 'aangepast' profile and so far I have not found the time or will to recreate it (used one of the default profiles since). But it absolutely can be done.

I was eying on VaporFlow 480 machine and the profile was one of the problematic things in mind for those vapor phase machines...

Good to know there is some level of control of the temperature and not always work in the pedal-to-the-metal way.

My question to you is if you saw that profile work ok for different boards? Or you always solder the same board? I mean is it the same mass that you have to heat?
I wonder if trying to create the soaking phase we hit the same problem of tweeking the profiles for different boards?