NeoDen YY1 Pick And Place Machine With Under $3K Price for Hobbiest/Low vol Usag

[EEVblog]

The LitePLacer place.
I had no idea this was 7 YEARS OLD! 

[48X24X48X]

I think you should just buy a YY1 - if they sell enough of them, they wont be able to abandon their customers. If they do abandon you all, hopefully there will be enough of you out there to come up with a plan to maybe get OpenPnP working on it, or at least find ways to solve issues Neoden wont fix.

The risk is low on the YY1 in terms of investment, so maybe just take the chance. You wont find anything else in the price range you want that is worth buying instead, new or used, IMHO.

BTW - I'm in Melbourne

Seon
Unexpected Maker

Or it could end up like S1. Discontinued and create another company, rebrand and sell it.

[mikeselectricstuff]

The LitePLacer place.
I had no idea this was 7 YEARS OLD! 

Bitluni did a short vid on the Liteplacer

[EEVblog]

Well, the poll on the video above is overwhelmingly BUILD IT.
Does everyone realise it doesn't have any feeders and will actually be of no use assembling real boards in any sort of volume?

[mikeselectricstuff]

Well, the poll on the video above is overwhelmingly BUILD IT.
Does everyone realise it doesn't have any feeders and will actually be of no use assembling real boards in any sort of volume?

Adding Yamaha feeders = more content!

[thinkfat]

Well, the poll on the video above is overwhelmingly BUILD IT.
Does everyone realise it doesn't have any feeders and will actually be of no use assembling real boards in any sort of volume?

Look, Dave, we're all here for the shits and giggles. Not for you getting actual work done. You picked the wrong circus with the wrong clowns

[SeanB]

Yes Dave actually getting a working result is less fun than the rabbit holes he goes down. Those are always more of a learning experience for all, because the explanation of what went wrong is always going to result in a better result.

[loki42]

I'm not sure what kind of machine is needed for doing boards at low volume.  I think something that just puts down a few of the common caps could be handy,  but on modern designs they're probably 0402 imperial or smaller so vision and nozzles need to be decent.

I used a suction pen for a long time.  On smaller boards I think it would take quite a while to teach the feeders and parts to the machine,  depending on the software.  I was setting up a new board today on my machines which only had 1 part the wasn't already on a feeder but it still took me quite a long time to import the files,  check rotations,  teach the new part and pick location, program SPI and teach fiducials. 

[EEVblog]

I'm not sure what kind of machine is needed for doing boards at low volume.  I think something that just puts down a few of the common caps could be handy,  but on modern designs they're probably 0402 imperial or smaller so vision and nozzles need to be decent.

I wouldn't bother doing boards in-house unless I could put down most if not all the parts.
Future projects would likely be tailored around the limitations of the machine.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I'm not sure what kind of machine is needed for doing boards at low volume.  I think something that just puts down a few of the common caps could be handy,  but on modern designs they're probably 0402 imperial or smaller so vision and nozzles need to be decent.

I used a suction pen for a long time.  On smaller boards I think it would take quite a while to teach the feeders and parts to the machine,  depending on the software.  I was setting up a new board today on my machines which only had 1 part the wasn't already on a feeder but it still took me quite a long time to import the files,  check rotations,  teach the new part and pick location, program SPI and teach fiducials.

This can be made pretty efficient with the right setup, e.g my PCB library is set up with consistent orientation to the taping, fuducials are special components in the design. By far the most time is loading parts in feeders. For parts already loaded I can vo from PCB file to placing in 5-10 mins easily

[alpelectronics]

I'm not sure what kind of machine is needed for doing boards at low volume.  I think something that just puts down a few of the common caps could be handy,  but on modern designs they're probably 0402 imperial or smaller so vision and nozzles need to be decent.

I used a suction pen for a long time.  On smaller boards I think it would take quite a while to teach the feeders and parts to the machine,  depending on the software.  I was setting up a new board today on my machines which only had 1 part the wasn't already on a feeder but it still took me quite a long time to import the files,  check rotations,  teach the new part and pick location, program SPI and teach fiducials.

This can be made pretty efficient with the right setup, e.g my PCB library is set up with consistent orientation to the taping, fuducials are special components in the design. By far the most time is loading parts in feeders. For parts already loaded I can vo from PCB file to placing in 5-10 mins easily

I believe Neoden YY1 is quite good for this purpose. However there are improvements needed. Either someone needs to hack it or Neoden should give a support with some FW fixes. When I talked to them, they said they are checking if it is possible to update the board. If there is a an mcu, it shouldnt be ultra hard to program it.

Caner,
Alp Electronix

[Jeremiah]

I agree with what Seon stated about NeoDen. NeoDen could address many hardware and software issues if they just used their own machines in production. The problems become obvious just by running a few different board designs. They could learn for companies in the hobby market such as Prusa and Opulo which use their own machines in production.

I have found that the only way to get hardware fixed by NeoDen is to buy the parts from them. I spend a lot of time sharing bugs in the NeoDen4 software which were never addressed. I moved to OpenPnP in the end with a small group of NeoDen4 users. This was a huge process due to proprietary drivers which had to be reversed engineered.

The YY1 does look interesting given the price point. The software UI looks a lot better than the NeoDen4. I still seem some strang design choices based on the few reviews that I have watched. It does not use multiple fiducials for board alignment, why.... At least this can pick 12mm tall components unlike the NeoDen4 which was only 5mm.

[jmibk]

I ordered one of this QiHe (TVM925) machines directly from QiHe via alibaba and it arrived last week. The machine itself costs 4700 USD plus the feeders. It came with a kind of chinese Yamaha style feeders, they look and feel very high value.
It took me around a day to get the thing up and running and it is quite fast and works great for me till now (and I hope in the future also :-) ).
Service is great if you have questions, especially to their software, that came with the machine.

As dave mentioned, this machine is one of the kind of open the package and run it devices.

So the price isn't that far away from the price of the NeoDen.

[bugrobotics]

I ordered one of this QiHe (TVM925) machines directly from QiHe via alibaba and it arrived last week. The machine itself costs 4700 USD plus the feeders. It came with a kind of chinese Yamaha style feeders, they look and feel very high value.
It took me around a day to get the thing up and running and it is quite fast and works great for me till now (and I hope in the future also :-) ).
Service is great if you have questions, especially to their software, that came with the machine.

As dave mentioned, this machine is one of the kind of open the package and run it devices.

So the price isn't that far away from the price of the NeoDen.

Interested in the feeders and the seller you used on Alibaba. 

[seon]

I'm not sure what kind of machine is needed for doing boards at low volume.  I think something that just puts down a few of the common caps could be handy,  but on modern designs they're probably 0402 imperial or smaller so vision and nozzles need to be decent.

I wouldn't bother doing boards in-house unless I could put down most if not all the parts.
Future projects would likely be tailored around the limitations of the machine.

That's the best plan - consolidate components to reduce number of uniques, and then use the PnP for projects that suit it (design for that if possible) and outsource to a CM for designs that just cant work on the PnP.

Once you get to know your PnP really well and can get the time from "export from ECAD -> Setup and tune on PnP ->Running a board" down to sub 10-15min, then doing partial placements for prototype designs does become a viable option, but I'd imagine you're pretty fast at hand placement Dave Though placing is quick.. getting parts out and not mixed up is the time sink.

If you are not going to feel guilty about the machine sitting idle most of the time, then no need to "find ways to use it"... if you are going to look at I and play the "regret game" about money spent, then finding ways to integrate it more into your day to day stuff is worth the effort of exploring.

I can get a new design from KiCAD into my N8 and placing parts on a panel (assuming no or super low feeder re-load) in less than 10 mins now, and much of that time is going up and down my stairs

Seon
Unexpected Maker 

[Smartbeedesigns]

Couple of YT vids :

This is me btw.

I think some people may have a skewed view of what to expect from a machine of this price point.

Is it perfect? Far from it. But is it still worth it even if you have to fiddle with things? Absolutely. Even with having to tweak things and occasionally baby sit it. It's still 6x faster than hand assembling my boards. It will accurately place components on a board.

And part of the run time when I don't have to babysit it, I can be doing other things.

So while, it's not a 30k+ PnP and may have some issues to deal with, it's still worth it to me for what I'm using it for. When it's dialed in, it can pump out boards quite fast compared to what I was doing before by hand.

So it's a decision perspective buyers need to weigh the cost vs the issues you may encounter with it

[loki42]

I'm not sure what kind of machine is needed for doing boards at low volume.  I think something that just puts down a few of the common caps could be handy,  but on modern designs they're probably 0402 imperial or smaller so vision and nozzles need to be decent.

I used a suction pen for a long time.  On smaller boards I think it would take quite a while to teach the feeders and parts to the machine,  depending on the software.  I was setting up a new board today on my machines which only had 1 part the wasn't already on a feeder but it still took me quite a long time to import the files,  check rotations,  teach the new part and pick location, program SPI and teach fiducials.

This can be made pretty efficient with the right setup, e.g my PCB library is set up with consistent orientation to the taping, fuducials are special components in the design. By far the most time is loading parts in feeders. For parts already loaded I can vo from PCB file to placing in 5-10 mins easily

It takes me that long at least to start up and zero the machines!  Fiducials on the printer and solder paste inspection take at least 10 minutes to setup. For full inspection on a normal panel with say a few 100 parts, bit of QFN / BGA it might take me an hour. 

The actual pick and place machines are quick unless i need to setup a new part.  Parts with complicated shapes like connectors take maybe 15 minutes each to teach to to the vision system.  QFN or BGA are a lot quicker.  90% of packages are already in the system but stuff like an FPC connector won't be. Deciding on nozzles is a confusing puzzle as I've got 3 different heads which take different types of nozzles.  In the head selection screen it doesn't give you info about the nozzles and there's 100s of them across the machines. 

I'm not sure if any of the lower end Chinese machines have nozzle changers. 

[aholtzma]

Unexpected Maker on Twitter just told me that his experience with NeoDen support has been pretty horrible, so that's kinda 

As a counterpoint, my experience with them has been great. They generally respond within a few hours during (their) office hours.

[Smartbeedesigns]

Unexpected Maker on Twitter just told me that his experience with NeoDen support has been pretty horrible, so that's kinda 

As a counterpoint, my experience with them has been great. They generally respond within a few hours during (their) office hours.

I can't speak to long term support, by my YY1 came with a bent stepper motor bracket and they sent a replacement bracket and motor asap for free. So in that regard it was good customer service and they've been every responsive to my emails with questions.

Now in 3 years, maybe that will change with this machine if they're no longer making it for example.

[seon]

Unexpected Maker on Twitter just told me that his experience with NeoDen support has been pretty horrible, so that's kinda 

As a counterpoint, my experience with them has been great. They generally respond within a few hours during (their) office hours.

So you've had on going faulty HW on your machine that they have fixed? Sent replacement boards to swap out? What machine and what HW? Or are you just saying that they have been responsive to questions?

Being more specific about what they've helped you with would be a much better counterpoint to just "my experience is the opposite" ...

Seon
Unexpected Maker

[aholtzma]

So you've had on going faulty HW on your machine that they have fixed? Sent replacement boards to swap out? What machine and what HW? Or are you just saying that they have been responsive to questions?

Being more specific about what they've helped you with would be a much better counterpoint to just "my experience is the opposite" ...

We had some damaged parts when we received our YY1, and they sent replacements within a week. They also sent a new controller with updated software unprompted.

It is likely the differences in service depends on whether they think the problem is their fault or not.

[seon]

So you've had on going faulty HW on your machine that they have fixed? Sent replacement boards to swap out? What machine and what HW? Or are you just saying that they have been responsive to questions?

Being more specific about what they've helped you with would be a much better counterpoint to just "my experience is the opposite" ...

We had some damaged parts when we received our YY1, and they sent replacements within a week. They also sent a new controller with updated software unprompted.

It is likely the differences in service depends on whether they think the problem is their fault or not.

Ok, cool, glad to hear!

[jmibk]

I ordered one of this QiHe (TVM925) machines directly from QiHe via alibaba and it arrived last week. The machine itself costs 4700 USD plus the feeders. It came with a kind of chinese Yamaha style feeders, they look and feel very high value.
It took me around a day to get the thing up and running and it is quite fast and works great for me till now (and I hope in the future also :-) ).
Service is great if you have questions, especially to their software, that came with the machine.

As dave mentioned, this machine is one of the kind of open the package and run it devices.

So the price isn't that far away from the price of the NeoDen.

Interested in the feeders and the seller you used on Alibaba.

The seller was QiHe itself and everything was fluent and without any hazzle. Delivery took about 1 week.

Here are some pics of a 12mm feeder (without the rail guide, I removed it with 3 screws to save space). Price was 65 dollars for one.
I ordered 8mm, 12mm, 16mm, 24mm and one vibration feeder (for 5 tubes) for the machine.

On the last pic you can see that I missaligned the plastic strip cover - thats my fault.

[asmi]

So you've had on going faulty HW on your machine that they have fixed? Sent replacement boards to swap out? What machine and what HW? Or are you just saying that they have been responsive to questions?

Being more specific about what they've helped you with would be a much better counterpoint to just "my experience is the opposite" ...

I heard that Neoden's support in US is quite good. But I don't have any personal experience with it.

[EEVblog]

Juhu from LitePlace got back to me. Yes my kit hardware is very old and would need an upgrade to bring it up to modern standards, which he has kindly offered to do.
Seems like people overwhelmingly want me to assemble this thing!