NeoDen YY1 Pick And Place Machine With Under $3K Price for Hobbiest/Low vol Usag

[asmi]

Seems like people overwhelmingly want me to assemble this thing! 

Of course they do - they want drama and action! Nevermind that the end result will be barely useable for it's intended purpose - that's not their problem. I mean, since your only expense will be the time you have to put into it to assemble and get it to do something beyond a couple of test-picks, and if that's something you are OK with & want to do - why not? I know I would - just because I like assembling things and seeing them work, even if their utility is questionable. About a year ago I bought an original Prusa i3 printer kit, which took me like 4 evenings to assemble - but seeing it coming alive was definitely worth the trouble!

[seon]

So you've had on going faulty HW on your machine that they have fixed? Sent replacement boards to swap out? What machine and what HW? Or are you just saying that they have been responsive to questions?

Being more specific about what they've helped you with would be a much better counterpoint to just "my experience is the opposite" ...

I heard that Neoden's support in US is quite good. But I don't have any personal experience with it.

Just for clarification - Neoden US is not actually Neoden. They are their own company and just resell Neoden equipment as the US distributor. It's an important distinction.
That said, yes I have also heard they look after their customers.

Seon
Unexpected Maker

[thinkfat]

Juhu from LitePlace got back to me. Yes my kit hardware is very old and would need an upgrade to bring it up to modern standards, which he has kindly offered to do.
Seems like people overwhelmingly want me to assemble this thing! 

Well, you know, you can do this and _also_ get a YY1 to play with. It's not going to break the bank. And it might be even more enjoyable to watch you squirm over getting the YY1 to work 

[FullyArticulate]

tl;dr -- Charmhigh CHMT48VB works great for me for years. For prototype runs, it (or the YY1) could be great for you.

Everyone needs something different from their P&P system and I think your mileage varies entirely based upon what you need to accomplish. Seon, for example, needs to produce thousands of boards as hands off as possible. That's completely different from my (and maybe your) use case.

I want to rapidly create a new design, get a PCB from Allpcb or jlcpcb, pick and place it, and be ready to produce 20-50 if it's a good design. I've outsourced this in the past, and it takes roughly 8 weeks to outsource fab + assy. If I outsource fab and do assy myself, I can go from idea to finished board in 3 weeks. That's a huge difference to me. If my client is happy, I can make up to 50. If they're REALLY happy, then I'll outsource everything. My typical design has about 150 placements on the bottom and 80 placements on the top (the majority 0402).

I've had a really good experience with my CHMT48VB for the last 2 years. Charmhigh has been super responsive with various issues that have come up. It mostly just works. The biggest problems I've had thusfar are:

1) I've needed to change the system X,Y compensation because everything was consistently and slightly off. Charmhigh took my pictures and sent back a video showing how to do the compensation in just a few hours.
2) The Z clearance isn't huge. I have a few tall parts that will run into tall parts already placed on the board. That sucks when an explosion of parts comes off the board after having been placed.
3) The DPV (pick & place file) is not well documented, so I've spent quite a bit of time hacking things until they work (e.g. if you have your own fiducials, they have to be listed in the file as un-placed components).

I wish there were additional features in their software. For example, I wish you could mark a feeder as "no advance" so it would pick the one that I've already exposed rather than dragging. I also wish you had more (or an unlimited) number of "anywhere" cut tape feeders. They currently have a limit of 9.

My biggest pain point right now is a lack of ability to swap reels (like with a standalone feeder). I make specialty RF boards which sometimes need lots of specialty components (e.g. specific resistor values for filters). When I switch to making a different board, it can take a day or two to unweave each reel I no longer need from the built-in feeders, and reweave the new reels.

I looked at the cheapest machines that use feeders (CHM 550/560, maybe Neoden S1). It occurred to me it might just be cheaper to buy a second CHMT48VB or possibly a YY1. The YY1 seems to have a feature where you can swap out an entire bank of reels in one shot--that'd work for me great.

[EEVblog]

Just put in an offer on a local TVM920 with 45 feeders and the listing was just pulled. Should have pressed the Buy it Now button instead

[alpelectronics]

Do not buy NeoDen YY1! It has lots of SW bugs.

The panelization doesn't work. The board origin alignment does not work. There are problems in the coordinations, it always misses some steps I believe.

I will try to make a measurement with a meter.

It could have been a good device but, so much limited.

I asked NeoDen to make it open source, then we can contribute to solve the bugs. I also ask about the problems but they don't try to solve issues.

Regards,
Alp Electronix

[aholtzma]

Do not buy NeoDen YY1! It has lots of SW bugs.

The panelization doesn't work. The board origin alignment does not work. There are problems in the coordinations, it always misses some steps I believe.

I will try to make a measurement with a meter.

It could have been a good device but, so much limited.

I asked NeoDen to make it open source, then we can contribute to solve the bugs. I also ask about the problems but they don't try to solve issues.

When did you buy it? The initial firmware had lots of problems. Since installing new boards/firmware it has fixed almost all of our problems.

Though we are still arguing with them over whether missing a nozzle change when skipping a component is an actual bug  .

[Smartbeedesigns]

Do not buy NeoDen YY1! It has lots of SW bugs.

The panelization doesn't work. The board origin alignment does not work. There are problems in the coordinations, it always misses some steps I believe.

I will try to make a measurement with a meter.

It could have been a good device but, so much limited.

I asked NeoDen to make it open source, then we can contribute to solve the bugs. I also ask about the problems but they don't try to solve issues.

When did you buy it? The initial firmware had lots of problems. Since installing new boards/firmware it has fixed almost all of our problems.

Though we are still arguing with them over whether missing a nozzle change when skipping a component is an actual bug  .

ive had very little issues with mine, but i think if we share what software version we're on we can get a better feeling if these are machine specific issues or software issues.

mine is on software version 2022.007

you can see what version your on if you go to the parameter page at the bottom before you put in the password.

[FullyArticulate]

Can any of the YY1 owners confirm the idea of swapping out a "magazine" (in the nomenclature of their manual) of feeders? It looks like the machine has 4 magazines, each with about 12 8mm feeders. Is it possible to just pull out an entire magazine and put in a new one, pre-loaded with parts?

If I could buy a few extra magazines (i.e. have a magazine per unique board or something) and swap them in and out easily, that'd be a killer app for me.

[EEVblog]

Do not buy NeoDen YY1! It has lots of SW bugs.

I'm not seeing what else there is in the same price bracket?
I just missed out on a used machine wiht 45 Yamaha feeders 

[alpelectronics]

Do not buy NeoDen YY1! It has lots of SW bugs.

The panelization doesn't work. The board origin alignment does not work. There are problems in the coordinations, it always misses some steps I believe.

I will try to make a measurement with a meter.

It could have been a good device but, so much limited.

I asked NeoDen to make it open source, then we can contribute to solve the bugs. I also ask about the problems but they don't try to solve issues.

When did you buy it? The initial firmware had lots of problems. Since installing new boards/firmware it has fixed almost all of our problems.

Though we are still arguing with them over whether missing a nozzle change when skipping a component is an actual bug  .

ive had very little issues with mine, but i think if we share what software version we're on we can get a better feeling if these are machine specific issues or software issues.

mine is on software version 2022.007

you can see what version your on if you go to the parameter page at the bottom before you put in the password.

Hi. Thanks. I have 2022.004. Obviously it is older than yours. I will check with them. However they previously said that update is not possible.

[alpelectronics]

Do not buy NeoDen YY1! It has lots of SW bugs.

The panelization doesn't work. The board origin alignment does not work. There are problems in the coordinations, it always misses some steps I believe.

I will try to make a measurement with a meter.

It could have been a good device but, so much limited.

I asked NeoDen to make it open source, then we can contribute to solve the bugs. I also ask about the problems but they don't try to solve issues.

When did you buy it? The initial firmware had lots of problems. Since installing new boards/firmware it has fixed almost all of our problems.

Though we are still arguing with them over whether missing a nozzle change when skipping a component is an actual bug  .

I agree on that actually. I was trying to setup the nozzle back to their initial setup after the first change, I couldnt do it. I was thinking to have a component which I can skip and setup the nozzle changer. However it didnt work. Alternatively, we should be able set the nozzle changer 'After' a component not only before a component.

I believe as YY1 owners, we can create a discord group to investigate or solve the problems on the machine. We might even have upgrades possibly.

Caner
Alp Electronix

[Jackster]

Do not buy NeoDen YY1! It has lots of SW bugs.

The panelization doesn't work. The board origin alignment does not work. There are problems in the coordinations, it always misses some steps I believe.

I will try to make a measurement with a meter.

It could have been a good device but, so much limited.

I asked NeoDen to make it open source, then we can contribute to solve the bugs. I also ask about the problems but they don't try to solve issues.

When did you buy it? The initial firmware had lots of problems. Since installing new boards/firmware it has fixed almost all of our problems.

Though we are still arguing with them over whether missing a nozzle change when skipping a component is an actual bug  .

I agree on that actually. I was trying to setup the nozzle back to their initial setup after the first change, I couldnt do it. I was thinking to have a component which I can skip and setup the nozzle changer. However it didnt work.

I believe as YY1 owners, we can create a discord group to investigate or solve the problems on the machine. We might even have upgrades possibly.

Caner
Alp Electronix

We have an HWGC Discord. I was thinking about opening it up to multiple China PnP machine suppliers so we can all share information along with the Wiki site I run as well.
https://discord.gg/xN8HmN9Tea https://hwgc.jogara.co.uk/
We share a lot of components, feeders and tools so might be worth combining efforts.

[alpelectronics]

Do not buy NeoDen YY1! It has lots of SW bugs.

The panelization doesn't work. The board origin alignment does not work. There are problems in the coordinations, it always misses some steps I believe.

I will try to make a measurement with a meter.

It could have been a good device but, so much limited.

I asked NeoDen to make it open source, then we can contribute to solve the bugs. I also ask about the problems but they don't try to solve issues.

When did you buy it? The initial firmware had lots of problems. Since installing new boards/firmware it has fixed almost all of our problems.

Though we are still arguing with them over whether missing a nozzle change when skipping a component is an actual bug  .

I agree on that actually. I was trying to setup the nozzle back to their initial setup after the first change, I couldnt do it. I was thinking to have a component which I can skip and setup the nozzle changer. However it didnt work.

I believe as YY1 owners, we can create a discord group to investigate or solve the problems on the machine. We might even have upgrades possibly.

Caner
Alp Electronix

We have an HWGC Discord. I was thinking about opening it up to multiple China PnP machine suppliers so we can all share information along with the Wiki site I run as well.
https://discord.gg/xN8HmN9Tea https://hwgc.jogara.co.uk/
We share a lot of components, feeders and tools so might be worth combining efforts.

The discord link has expired I guess. Can you renew it?

[Jackster]

The discord link has expired I guess. Can you renew it?

https://discord.gg/p47Ak28EsA

[Smartbeedesigns]

Can any of the YY1 owners confirm the idea of swapping out a "magazine" (in the nomenclature of their manual) of feeders? It looks like the machine has 4 magazines, each with about 12 8mm feeders. Is it possible to just pull out an entire magazine and put in a new one, pre-loaded with parts?

If I could buy a few extra magazines (i.e. have a magazine per unique board or something) and swap them in and out easily, that'd be a killer app for me.

this machine doesnt have magazines in the traditional sense. it has 3D printed tape guides that the head picks from. you can swap them out, you'd have to re-setup the feeder positions in the software. so its not a simple swap and go type situation. and the tape guide blocks cant really hold pre-loaded tape.

[happicow]

Hello,

I have ordered a YY1, should be here later this week.   I was sold on:

• The price ($3400 USD delivered to Canada)
• The somewhat compact size
• Bulk component pickup with vision
• The simple looking interface

I am not sure if it has been mentioned, but I did get some pricing for a "firmware" upgrade:

Updating the user interface firmware requires replacing the screen: $50 USD
Updating the PnP firmware requires replacing the main board: $150 USD

I feel those are reasonable prices to help cover the costs of further development and support of the machine.  PnP machines are not a mass-produced consumer product that can easily cover the costs of software development.  I do however feel the method of replacing hardware to upgrade firmware is quite wasteful.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Hello,

I have ordered a YY1, should be here later this week.   I was sold on:

• The price ($3400 USD delivered to Canada)
• The somewhat compact size
• Bulk component pickup with vision
• The simple looking interface

I am not sure if it has been mentioned, but I did get some pricing for a "firmware" upgrade:

Updating the user interface firmware requires replacing the screen: $50 USD
Updating the PnP firmware requires replacing the main board: $150 USD

I feel those are reasonable prices to help cover the costs of further development and support of the machine.  PnP machines are not a mass-produced consumer product that can easily cover the costs of software development.  I do however feel the method of replacing hardware to upgrade firmware is quite wasteful.

They're not going to be making much on those if they have to supply whole new boards. There is simply no excuse for such piss-poor design.

[dkonigs]

Updating the user interface firmware requires replacing the screen: $50 USD
Updating the PnP firmware requires replacing the main board: $150 USD

I feel those are reasonable prices to help cover the costs of further development and support of the machine.  PnP machines are not a mass-produced consumer product that can easily cover the costs of software development.  I do however feel the method of replacing hardware to upgrade firmware is quite wasteful.

They're not going to be making much on those if they have to supply whole new boards. There is simply no excuse for such piss-poor design.

Yeah, its not reasonable.  Its downright stupid.  It would have been far better to simply design in some sort of method for user-installable updates like everyone else.  If they want to charge for those updates, so be it, but anything they'd reasonably charge would still have more margin and less waste than requiring board swaps.

Its going to be impossible for the firmware to be perfect and bug-free at launch with anything of this complexity.  Updates are going to be a fact of life, at least for the first year or so that the product is on the market.

[up8051]

Updating the PnP firmware requires replacing the main board: $150 USD

 

[alpelectronics]

Hello,

I have ordered a YY1, should be here later this week.   I was sold on:

• The price ($3400 USD delivered to Canada)
• The somewhat compact size
• Bulk component pickup with vision
• The simple looking interface

I am not sure if it has been mentioned, but I did get some pricing for a "firmware" upgrade:

Updating the user interface firmware requires replacing the screen: $50 USD
Updating the PnP firmware requires replacing the main board: $150 USD

I feel those are reasonable prices to help cover the costs of further development and support of the machine.  PnP machines are not a mass-produced consumer product that can easily cover the costs of software development.  I do however feel the method of replacing hardware to upgrade firmware is quite wasteful.

The screen is an HMI module. It is from DWIN. It is updated with an sd card. It has its slot inside the module. I opened and saw it. So why would they charge for the HMI update since it is very simple?

[alpelectronics]

Updating the user interface firmware requires replacing the screen: $50 USD
Updating the PnP firmware requires replacing the main board: $150 USD

I feel those are reasonable prices to help cover the costs of further development and support of the machine.  PnP machines are not a mass-produced consumer product that can easily cover the costs of software development.  I do however feel the method of replacing hardware to upgrade firmware is quite wasteful.

They're not going to be making much on those if they have to supply whole new boards. There is simply no excuse for such piss-poor design.

Yeah, its not reasonable.  Its downright stupid.  It would have been far better to simply design in some sort of method for user-installable updates like everyone else.  If they want to charge for those updates, so be it, but anything they'd reasonably charge would still have more margin and less waste than requiring board swaps.

Its going to be impossible for the firmware to be perfect and bug-free at launch with anything of this complexity.  Updates are going to be a fact of life, at least for the first year or so that the product is on the market.

So everytime there is an update, we need to pay 200$.😅 Then they would release a version for each bug. A nice business idea but it won't work.

[mikeselectricstuff]

At least it means there will be some old boards floating around to reverse-engineer and figure out how to extarct the code from ...

[happicow]

At least it means there will be some old boards floating around to reverse-engineer and figure out how to extarct the code from ...

It is entirely possible that this was done as a way to protect their software from being extracted and reverse engineered.  Many MCUs have the ability to blow the debugging fuses and/or restrict access to certain memory regions.

The other thing it could be is that they did not want to provide a bootloader or other programming interface for customers.  Developing those takes some amount of time.

[48X24X48X]

Very likely a giant STM32 is residing inside. And these STM32 has a factory bootloader inside. Not sure why they aren't doing that, it saves customer's time and money. If you have 10 revision updates, you already paid $1500 excluding the shipping fee.