OurPCB - affordable multi-layer board manufacturer - my experience

[asmi]

Well, at least I'm able to test power supply part of the board, and it seems to work OK. Attached are some micro photos of QFNs. As you can see, TPS soldered just perfectly, while tiny TLV is a bit offset, but no shorts thanks to solder stops.

[asmi]

So I've placed an order for the second revision of the board. Will post some photos once I receive them in about 1.5 weeks from now.

[NorthGuy]

So I've placed an order for the second revision of the board. Will post some photos once I receive them in about 1.5 weeks from now.

What was the problem with the first one (if not a secret, of course)?

[asmi]

What was the problem with the first one (if not a secret, of course)?

I forgot to re-connect split power planes back to power rails once I actually split them Two rails (+3.3V and internal reference ground) were left unconnected. Stupid mistake I can't seem to get over the curse of first revision - every time I make a new board, I make some idiotic mistakes that makes rev 1 unusable. At least I became very good at detecting these mistakes before I start assembling boards This is a consistent trend - as I finalize the board, I get too excited and cut corners on verification before ordering boards. Most of the time these are really stupid things like wrong pin numbers, or incorrect footprint, or big parts (usually connectors) are too close to each other so that they don't fit together, or mixed up TX and RX pins, or connected FPGA's _N clock pin for the clock (single-ended clock need to connect to _P pin) - really simple things, but since I worked on the board, I can't see these things in a plain sight.

[NorthGuy]

I forgot to re-connect split power planes back to power rails once I actually split them

This is difficult to repair, although you could try to make connection through the component pins if you have any exposed and connected to these planes.

Things like this one happen to me too. I try to verify everything as much as possible, but ...

I wish you luck with the second try.

[asmi]

This is difficult to repair, although you could try to make connection through the component pins if you have any exposed and connected to these planes.

One of those unconnected planes is DDR3 reference plane, so even if I manage to connect it somehow, it will screw up return path for sure. This is the biggest issue, all other things could theoretically be connected via scraping some soldermask off vias and soldering some jumpers to them ("theoretically" as there is A LOT of connection points).

Things like this one happen to me too. I try to verify everything as much as possible, but ...

Yea, but every time it's a new kind of mistake, so at least I don't repeat same mistakes over and over

I wish you luck with the second try.

Thank you!
Funny that right at that moment I'm reviewing production gerbers they've sent me for approval after adjustments they've made during pre-production prep. Interestingly enough they've slightly enlarged 0.1 mm traces at the expense of spacing, in some cases spacing shrunk to ~0.08 mm. I suspect that they just enlarged all traces to account for slight over-etching which always happens when etchant gets a little bit under the mask. I had this happened to me as well when I was making boards at home - so in order to get reliable 0.15 mm traces, I had to swell traces for about 0.03 mm to get traced that are spot-on 0.15 mm.

[Dago]

Looks like what they're trying to say that if you don't request "Impedance Control", you can get any stackup they want. If so, to get anything in particular you need to request "Impedance Control". Anyway, the price they have for their boards, given that you get the stackup you want is great.

To be honest I have a hard time imagining 6+ layer board project which doesn't have any high-speed traces. So to me this seems more like an academic discussion.

There are plenty of applications for multi-layer boards without high-speed traces. One work project I had was a 30+ channel power supply unit with a total current input of around 125 A and was quite constrained for space. Had an 8 layer board.

[wraper]

Ordered from WELLPCB 10pcs: 2L, 20 x 14.4 cm, lead free hasl, blue resist ($63) and 100pcs: 2L, 18.6 x 7.7 cm, ENIG, matte blue ($200), includes 0.5 mm pitch parts. Cheapest I've ordered so far, shipping is somewhat expensive though - $135 for fedex. Stencil quotation was very expensive for Chinese PCB service, $100 + additional $75 to shipping  . IMO quantity is big enough to see how good and consistent they are. Also there was $25 tooling cost included for first pcb and $27 for second. So probably is will be complete peanuts ordering second time. Interestingly WELLPCB offered this:

2. Based on the confidence of our quality, as you can see from our web, customers can make payment after receiving the PCB prototypes(5~10 pieces). As the quantity you need is big, we can offer 50% in advance payment. Or if payment 100% in advance, we can discount the Paypal transfer fee.

Decided to try this because PCBwin was somewhat disappointing in quality lately. Electrically everything was fine but there were some cosmetic issues like some missing piece of copper on ground plane or scratch. And their quality was random when I ordered PCBA (10k U$) with one connector hand soldered on the edge (most issues with that). Half was carefully soldered and inspected. I found 2 fault marking stickers pointing to non critical soldering issues they likely forgot to fix and remove the sticker. Another half was like made on Friday by monkeys and not inspected at all  .

[asmi]

Stencil quotation was very expensive for Chinese PCB service, $100 + additional $75 to shipping 

Yep, I got $80 quote for stencil, so I ordered it at allpcb instead (took advantage of their $24 discount on shipping). Frameless polished with both sides on a same stencil ended up $33.44 with shipping and all other surcharges - unlike PCBWay, these guys don't cut out empty area of stencil and always ship the full panel which is rather heavy (hence the shipping cost - full price for shipping was $36).

[wraper]

Yep, I got $80 quote for stencil, so I ordered it at allpcb instead (took advantage of their $24 discount on shipping). Frameless polished with both sides on a same stencil ended up $33.44 with shipping and all other surcharges - unlike PCBWay, these guys don't cut out empty area of stencil and always ship the full panel which is rather heavy (hence the shipping cost - full price for shipping was $36).

Well, I made a discovery. Apparently they are one and the same.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/allpcb-pcbway-yet-another-shell/msg1358453/?topicseen#msg1358453

[mrpackethead]

Well, I made a discovery. Apparently they are one and the same.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/allpcb-pcbway-yet-another-shell/msg1358453/?topicseen#msg1358453

While that invoice thing is unusal, they are in deed two differnent companys, two different fabs.   The owners are friends, and i know it is unusal.   The owners of PCBway helped Allpcb get started.

[wraper]

@blueskull: How do you know WellPCB is the same as OurPCB? They look different to me. And the quality of OurPCB's boards on asmi's pictures appear to be better (to my eyes anyway) than the WellPCB's boards you have posted.

My PCB came with the same "certificate of completion" label, the same cross section sample, the same heat shrinking bubble wrap and the same foam.
Mine doesn't look that nice is because it uses 4 mil process and a lot of non-IPC standard, extremely small pads (for instance, my 0402 footprint is 0.6mm*1.0mm). My design is approaching their limit.
Also, via-in-pad without plugged vias look inherently nasty, but it works.

I received an invoice from wellpcb where issuer is Shijiazhuang OurPCB Tech. Ltd. So this confirms it without a doubt.

[asmi]

My second revision boards are now on the way! Unless DHL screws things up again, I should receive them on Friday. Can't wait to see what else I might've screwed up

[sdouble]

slightly disappointed by ourpcb :
took 1 week to get my quote.
Took days to get the paypal account to transfer money.
took them days to finally find out that they can't source the bare material (rogers 4450 which is pretty standart)
an fianlly 24 hours to fully refund me.

[mikeselectricstuff]

To be honest I have a hard time imagining 6+ layer board project which doesn't have any high-speed traces. So to me this seems more like an academic discussion.

The only 6-layer I've ever done was a high density LED array with  drivers on the back. nothing fast, just dense.

[asmi]

After some delay caused by DHL, I've finally received my second order. Attached are scans of the board, more photos are in my blog post here: https://thingselectronic.blogspot.ca/2017/12/second-order-from-ourpcb-working-on.html
To my eye boards looks even better, note good quality of thru holes plating. Very impressed!

[krho]

Thanks for the hint @asmi. We've just ordered a couple of prototypes at them to test them.
Did any of those that ordered there or via wellpcb (this is where we ordered) managed to convince them that you'd like to pay invoice via bank transfer and not via PayPal?

[wraper]

I received my boards. What can I say, wonderful PCBs. Perfect solder resist alignment, good silkscreen quality and alignment. Completely in different league compared to, say, pcbway or elecrow. It's really unusual to see cross section samples for cheap 2 layer boards  . Seems I found my new supplier. From inspection report I found that material used is FR-4 IT158 which has 150^oC Tg for which you usually would pay extra.

[asmi]

I received my boards. What can I say, wonderful PCBs. Perfect solder resist alignment, good silkscreen quality and alignment. Completely in different league compared to, say, pcbway or elecrow. It's really unusual to see cross section samples for cheap 2 layer boards  . Seems I found my new supplier. From inspection report I found that material used is FR-4 IT158 which has 150^oC Tg for which you usually would pay extra.

Yea, these guys really surprised me (in a good way!) with solder mask quality, which is something I didn't expect at all, as the sole reason I've placed the order was great price for 6 layer boards. First of all - they are the only fab I ever used that managed to consistently produce 0.1 mm wide solder stops between pins - I got a lot of components on my boards with such thin stops (0804 resistor arrays, QFNs with 0.5 and 0.4 mm pitch), and each and every one of them is present - and it's bond to the substrate is strong enough that it takes some effort to peel it off. This has always been a hit-and-miss affair with the likes of PCBWay. And these solder stops are a huuuge help for soldering pain-in-the-neck QFNs and QFPs with exposed tab! Also I ran one of boards through 2 full-duration lead-free reflow profiles (to simulate reflowing top and bottom side components), and the mask didn't change the color at all - to the point that I couldn't tell that board apart from the fresh one. This is outstanding result!

[JPortici]

that finish is sick! I'm going to try them for my next 4L board

[fcb]

Nice boards wraper.  What finish did they apply?

[asmi]

Nice boards wraper.  What finish did they apply?

Looks like matte blue to me.

[wraper]

Nice boards wraper.  What finish did they apply?

Looks like matte blue to me.

yep

[JPortici]

did you just select "matte" for the finish? i tried with the online quote tool and it just say "matte", no colour

[wraper]

did you just select "matte" for the finish? i tried with the online quote tool and it just say "matte", no colour

I ordered via email.