Author Topic: LM399 based 10 V reference  (Read 547746 times)

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Offline MisterDiodes

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #500 on: January 22, 2017, 10:23:26 pm »
..If you search and sort you can find '399's that are -only- 2X to 3X as noisy as LTZ, and maybe run those in parallel, then you could have somewhat low noise like an LTZ gives you.  No matter what - If you're sorting thru '399's to find the lower noise units you still have to pay for the majority of the '399's that are much noisier than that - so in a production situation I wouldn't say that '399's are really that profitable compared to an LTZ if noise is a factor.  TC still spec'd at 10X worse of course on '399, and in that there is no real comparison.  We normally get well within all datasheet specs on our LTZ's.

For what I do most of the time, <very> low noise and TC are top priorities in a Vref anyway. Long term drift rate is somewhat important but on a production situation these will all come with a required calibration interval customer maintains, whatever that is - 12 month, 6 month, whatever.

For production BOM pricing, you need to go with just datasheet specs (not cherry picking VRefs) - and accounting will you still tell you: You get what you pay for.  Period.  Generally LTZ gets you what you need for lowest noise for a better profit margin at the end of the day.

If a '399 works for your application, then that is great.  But if you need the whole package of (much) lower noise, better TC and generally low drift rate - the LTZ is a much better choice in general.

The '399 can certainly settle down to a low drift rate - and several 3456a meters we've got on line haven't needed a cal adjustment for decades (even with pots!!), so that is a testament that for some <higher noise tolerant> applications where they can be just the ticket. 



 

Offline Edwin G. Pettis

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #501 on: January 22, 2017, 11:47:57 pm »
After checking two versions of the LM399 data sheets (an old National Semi and newer Linear Tech), both had very similar data, in the National a scope photo showing nearly two divisions (5uV/division) of noise (0.1Hz - 1.0 Hz, 2 minutes/div.) and the LT showing a probable strip chart recording showing virtually identical noise spanning 25 sec./div.  Both displaying the typical spec of 7uV of low frequency noise.  As we all know, some units will have a bit lower noise and others will have more noise, the LM399 version has a maximum spec of 50uV noise, the LM199 has a maximum of 20uV.  The bulk of the production will be around the 7uV noise spec, certainly you can sort out for lower noise but the fact is that the manufacturer has already gone through and pulled the best performing chips for the higher priced versions, the LM199 and military types so if you happen to find a LM399 with noise significantly lower than 7uV, count yourself as lucky, there probably aren't too many of them around.
 
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Offline MisterDiodes

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #502 on: January 23, 2017, 03:49:59 am »
OH that's right - I had forgotten the older NS datasheet has slightly different specs.  It still shows you if you have the opportunity to pick up a working strip chart recorder, they can be very useful at 10Hz!  Null meters will tend to have a strip recorder output driver, and that's handy.  Plus they make fascinating museum pieces for friends and family to ogle. 

The 399's we had tested before were certainly more around the 5uV ~ 10uV + noise range (some quieter), but it's been a while since we used any.  To get down to 2 or 4uV noise you'd certainly have to sort thru a bunch.  They have their application but aren't going to replace LTZ's

Our customers these days need the faster high bit rate, higher bit count ADC's, and you really need to have as low a Vref noise as possible - and so we normally stick to the LTZ's for that, and using PWW to keep noise to a minimum too (Edwin's resistors work fine!).
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #503 on: January 23, 2017, 04:35:39 am »
OH that's right - I had forgotten the older NS datasheet has slightly different specs.  It still shows you if you have the opportunity to pick up a working strip chart recorder, they can be very useful at 10Hz!  Null meters will tend to have a strip recorder output driver, and that's handy.  Plus they make fascinating museum pieces for friends and family to ogle.

My old vector CRT DSOs are enough of a museum piece for show and tell.

What is the best way to make those nice datasheet quality nV/sqrt(Hz) versus frequency measurements extending to low frequencies which show 1/f noise without a dedicated analyser?  I usually make do with RMS and peak-to-peak spot noise measurements.
 
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Online Kleinstein

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #504 on: January 23, 2017, 04:37:00 pm »
To get the noise density data of a reference / voltage sources one usually uses a low noise AC coupled amplifier and than digitize the data and let a computer (e.g. PC) do the FFT (or similar). The tricky part can be AC coupling with very low frequency and still low noise. Something like 0.1 Hz is relatively easy, 0.01 Hz and lower start to get tricky.  Sometimes one can look at the difference of two more or less equal references - elimination AC coupling. For amplifiers it gets easier, as the DUT can do the first step of amplification itself and no possibly critical AC coupling is needed.

Usually the ADC/digitizer does not have to be especially good quality if the amplitude is well adjusted.

For the very low noise region (e.g. batteries) there is a correlation method, using two channels and lot more math.
 
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Offline Edwin G. Pettis

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #505 on: January 23, 2017, 05:54:00 pm »
To David Hess:

I quite agree with MisterDiodes method of measuring low frequency noise (or DC voltage for that matter):

"The biggest thing to keep in mind is your initial measurement uncertainty, as that limits the rest of your calculations.  As I wrote in my Price of Chasing PPM thread - the best way to measure a precision Vref is via 732a/b, mechanical null meter and Kelvin Varley divider.  Not only can you do that measurement under battery power only, you get your 10Hz bandwidth limiting done for you.  It's much harder to get a good .1 to 10Hz bandwidth measure from a 3458a.  It can be done, but the noise the DMM adds is an issue - besides the fact a 3458a isn't really considered the best voltage transfer device for absolute measures."

If you don't have a 732A/B available, you could possibly substitute a stable low noise battery as the reference source and null it against the DUT, since you are interested in the noise for this particular measurement, the precise DC voltage is unimportant and just becomes a drift component.  Most null meters have an output available and this already has limited bandwidth, fairly simple setup, you get the noise voltage out of the null meter and a good null meter will have very low AC noise, usually something on the order of 0.2uV - 0.3 uV.

 
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Offline MisterDiodes

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #506 on: January 23, 2017, 08:33:18 pm »
That is a very good point, Edwin - If the most important thing you're after is low noise and not absolute value on your Vref, you just need a -quiet and stable- voltage source to null against.

Handy stuff to know, if you haven't acquired a Null meter in your collection yet:

The most beautiful thing about a Null meter is the input impedance goes essentially to infinity at null (not exactly there but well into GOhms range), and for an economical price you get very good accuracy on the 1uV scale or lower (2% or better accuracy on a 1uV scale or lower ain't shabby!) - and all on battery power as well.  Self calibrating for the most part, even with the 7-decade Kelvin-Varley divider at one side.  No switching noise to worry about, no CPU digital clock noise, no weird ADC artifacts mucking up the results.  People worry about stiction on the meter needle but really that is very, very hard to see if you've ever used one, as long as you keep your measures to reasonable accuracy limits.  Another technique is to flip your meter connections over to spot the true null - at that magical point you will see no real needle deflection as you swap your + and - connections over, and that helps you see thermal problems as well.

Once you hit the sweet spot on your KVD dials, you'll see the meter needle drift slightly and equally around zero point, and you'll get a very accurate idea of your 10Hz and below noise levels.  You'll probably get started on the 10uV or 20uV or higher scales until you get things dialed in on the KVD and everything warmed up.  Later on with an LTZ you can usually switch down to 1uV meter scale and watch the noise gently from there, if you have a very quiet voltage source to work with.  That's when you know things are really working right!

Watch your shield / guard and grounds!

Keep your device under test in a well-shielded box, but as you get into lower PPM, you find that a shielded, low noise testing room situation will be a big help also.  As much as possible switch off all digital power supplies nearby, and look for any wall-warts too!  Watch out for mains-powered LED and Flour. lighting!  Those buggers can really create problems.  Incandescent or even battery-power incandescent is a good way to light, as long as you keep the heat farther away.  LED's running on pure DC can work also.

Keep a lookout for power supplies plugged in on the -other- side of the wall also!

Handy Tip: Setting the Null meter up so you can see the needle through an indoors testing room window is helpful, if that can work for you.  OR take a peek thru an cracked-open door.  That way you can non-thermally and non-drafty check on things while you get other stuff done during the day without approaching the test bench.

Another trick we've used:  Use the Null Meter 1V strip chart output to drive a quiet analog optic fiber cable driver connected to a fiber cable, and now you can use a quiet analog fiber receiver and your favorite DMM (maybe in the next room) to monitor and log measurements, if you must.  Not quite as accurate and adds a bit of TC but let's you coarse-check on the noise test without going anywhere near the shielded testing area, and no possible ground loops.  Much, much quieter than any wired / shielded copper or RF connection.

You might have to re-zero the meter now and then during the day, but if your lab temp is constant that isn't a huge issue.  If you see your meter needle drifting off-center don't assume your Vref is drifiing; that usually just means you have to touch up the meter zero point a little - which has no effect on noise measurment.  If you have to adjust the KVD, that means either your Vref or voltage source has drifted, so you'll have to sort that out - but for a noise test that probably isn't long enough time scale to worry about.

These are old & slow techniques, but they always work without firmware upgrades or digital noise - and you get stable, accurate and repeatable results down to low PPM with some practice.
 
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Offline Andreas

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #507 on: January 24, 2017, 07:46:19 pm »
Hello,

my opinion:
if noise is your key spec you have to measure every single device.
At least if there are no 100% production tested guaranteed maximum values given (only typical).

Also the noise diagrams seem to be mostly not measured:
how do you explain that a LM329 and a LM399 of LT have exactly the same peaks and dips over time on their low frequency noise diagram.

And how can a LT1021 have exactly the same noise pattern as a LT1236?
Ok they have a similar chip (except the trimming) but how do they get absolutely synchronous noise?
 :-//  :bullshit:  :popcorn:

with best regards

Andreas

 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #508 on: January 24, 2017, 08:18:14 pm »
Once you hit the sweet spot on your KVD dials, you'll see the meter needle drift slightly and equally around zero point, and you'll get a very accurate idea of your 10Hz and below noise levels.

I've gone back to using analogue meters on the bench for anything where spotting low frequency (say 0.1 Hz to 5 Hz) effects is necessary. Following a needle drifting about is so much easier than mentally re-creating the trend from a digital display.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #509 on: January 24, 2017, 08:52:47 pm »
if noise is your key spec you have to measure every single device.
At least if there are no 100% production tested guaranteed maximum values given (only typical).

Noise takes a lot of time to test so if you want a device with a maximum noise specification, then you have to either pay extra for it or grade it yourself.  For some devices they do a fast medium frequency spot noise measurement and assume that it correlates with low frequency noise.

Quote
Also the noise diagrams seem to be mostly not measured:
how do you explain that a LM329 and a LM399 of LT have exactly the same peaks and dips over time on their low frequency noise diagram.

And how can a LT1021 have exactly the same noise pattern as a LT1236?
Ok they have a similar chip (except the trimming) but how do they get absolutely synchronous noise?

The graphs only represent typical values and for devices which share the same design; the differences are not significant.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 03:08:43 am by David Hess »
 

Offline Andreas

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #510 on: January 24, 2017, 09:08:19 pm »
The graphs only represent typical values and for devices which share the same design, the differences are not significant.

Has the LM329 (a unheated device) really the same noise as a heated LM399?
Is the noise in the diagram typical for the heated or the unheated device?

 :-//

By the way: does anyone have a datasheet for the LTFLU-1 with noise diagram?

With best regards

Andreas
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #511 on: January 24, 2017, 09:41:26 pm »
I have a copy of a NS LM399 datasheet from 1999. It shows noise densitiy curves for 25 C and heated chip. The noise for the cold version only about half the value. The LF noise curve shown is for the heated chip (and different from the one shown below) - looks 8 µV_pp for the 0.01 -1 Hz range.

They also show an internal circuit - identical the the LM329 for the reference part.
So i would expect a lower noise for the relatively cold LM329/LM129 compared to a hot LM399.

The noise density curve for some reason slightly lower for the  LTs version of the LM329, but not much.
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #512 on: January 24, 2017, 10:07:28 pm »
By the way: does anyone have a datasheet for the LTFLU-1 with noise diagram?

I think the last LTFLU datasheet was last seen in Jimmy Hoffa's back pocket.

Offline Theboel

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #513 on: January 25, 2017, 01:59:31 am »
I have a copy of a NS LM399 datasheet from 1999. It shows noise densitiy curves for 25 C and heated chip. The noise for the cold version only about half the value. The LF noise curve shown is for the heated chip (and different from the one shown below) - looks 8 µV_pp for the 0.01 -1 Hz range.

They also show an internal circuit - identical the the LM329 for the reference part.
So i would expect a lower noise for the relatively cold LM329/LM129 compared to a hot LM399.

The noise density curve for some reason slightly lower for the  LTs version of the LM329, but not much.

I struggle to understand why the cold zener chip has less noise compare to hot one ?
and second question how to limit the temperature of LM399 ? what about current limiter for heater 
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #514 on: January 25, 2017, 01:34:35 pm »
I struggle to understand why the cold zener chip has less noise compare to hot one?

I wondered about this a little bit when looking at the LM339 datasheet which has different noise curves at two different temperatures but did not consider it seriously until you mentioned it thereby ruining my digestion.  The noise from zener and avalanche behavior is primarily shot noise which has no dependence on temperature.  Does avalanche current multiplication have a temperature coefficient?

My guess is that this has to do with the non-monotonic behavior of avalanche breakdown noise at low current which I suspect is do to irregularities which allow different areas of the junction to breakdown at different voltages.  Avalanche rated rectifiers and transient voltage suppressors are specially processed to prevent this to reduce spot heating.  This would also explain why some temperature compensated zener diodes are significantly noisier than others at low currents.

If the reference was not already low noise, a change in avalanche noise with temperature would never be noticed and the LTZ1000 should not display this behavior when operated at a higher current.

Quote
and second question how to limit the temperature of LM399? What about current limiter for heater?

Based on the schematic, it looks to me like the temperature regulation circuit can be set to a lower value by using a fixed voltage below 9 volts.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 04:39:22 am by David Hess »
 

Offline IconicPCB

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #515 on: January 26, 2017, 02:49:51 am »
I just checked my 1980 National semiconductors handbook regarding the noise figure.
LM129 noise powerdensity ( nV/sqrt(Hz)) is reflected in both LM399 and LM3999 spec when not operating with heater .

One of the app notes on LM129 suggested that the powersupply rejection might be improved by lowering operating current ( that is increasing bias resistor).
In addition it is possible to further improve the performance by incorporating the device into a bridge like configuration.
Namely form a bridge out of two biasing resistors supplying current to thedevice and a resistor respectively.The resistor is sized to reflect the dynamic impedance of the device and output is taken from the bridge ( device and the resistor).

One of those .. ahaaa  moments.
 

Offline TiN

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #516 on: January 26, 2017, 04:15:53 am »
Quote
By the way: does anyone have a datasheet for the LTFLU-1 with noise diagram?
There is a datasheet? I surely missed it.  :-X
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #517 on: January 26, 2017, 10:44:00 am »
Quote
By the way: does anyone have a datasheet for the LTFLU-1 with noise diagram?
There is a datasheet? I surely missed it.  :-X
I have tried to get one and gave up.
I don't think it is publicly available.
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Offline zhtoor

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #518 on: February 15, 2017, 05:04:20 am »
Hello everybody,

especially edwin, andeas, mrdiodes and mickle t. !

am new to this subject and i want to setup a small metrology lab. as a startup excercise i have the following in mind:-
(please bear with me, i am a newbie!)

1. acquire a bunch of LM329's (commercial ones from TI or LT)
2. use some kind of delamination procedure (methods required here!) to strip them off the epoxy/plastic encapsulation.
3. characterize / select these de-laminated parts for an averaging type voltage reference in a custom heating assembly.
4. ie; trying to do an LTZ1000 on the cheap, using selected LM329's.

since all of you are from advanced countries with lots of hands-on experience, please do guide me.

regards.

-zhtoor
 

Offline chickenHeadKnob

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #519 on: February 15, 2017, 10:46:41 am »

1. acquire a bunch of LM329's (commercial ones from TI or LT)
2. use some kind of delamination procedure (methods required here!) to strip them off the epoxy/plastic encapsulation.
3. characterize / select these de-laminated parts for an averaging type voltage reference in a custom heating assembly.
4. ie; trying to do an LTZ1000 on the cheap, using selected LM329's.

No need to delaminate, it would be a counter productive exercise. Epoxy packaging is fine providing your oven is reasonably sealed. It should keep the parts and circuit board at a steady humidity.  For the best effect the oven should be continuously powered (hot). Thermal cycling is bad for drift and when the oven cools it will have the propensity to draw in outside air and moisture. LM329's are quite noisy compared to LTZ1000
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #520 on: February 15, 2017, 04:44:03 pm »
If you are after a low cost, low noise 10 V source, the Chinese 2DW23x (from the right source) might be an option: With an adjusted current one can get a low TC and thus the oven around it would not be very critical. They are supposed to be low noise and with a voltage of about 5.3 V for just the zener and thus 10.6 V for two in series, the divider towards 10 V would be less critical than going from 7 to 10 V with a resistive divider / amplifier.

Stripping hte LM329 is likely not such a good idea - more like getting old / used LM129, with some risk in sorting through fakes.
 

Offline Conrad Hoffman

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #521 on: February 15, 2017, 05:52:35 pm »
Just curious- you can still buy all manner of 1Nxxxx series zero TC zeners. I've made some really decent references with those, an OP-07 and a few resistors, the standard self-biased circuit. Is a 2DW23x really any better than 1N821 or 1N45xx or 1N935-938, or just cheaper?
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #522 on: February 15, 2017, 07:24:34 pm »
At least the specs for the classical zener refs like 1N821 show quite a high noise level. However there is usually only one number in the 1 µV/Sqtz(Hz) and without noting a frequency. If this is for low frequency (like 0.1 -1 Hz) this noise figure would be not that bed. If it is the higher frequency (e.g. kHz) range, this noise level would be poor. 

The 2DW23x are lower voltage zeners (e.g. 5.3 V), and these tend to have less noise. However the lower voltage zeners also usually have a higher differential resistance and this makes a reference circuit more sensitive to resistor drift. So I would expect an trade off between low noise and long term stability. At least in some cases the noise for the 2DW23x is very low, even lower than something like an LTZ1000 or similar. However the TC is not very low and even with an adjusted current to get zero linear TC, there is a considerable second order term - so an oven is more or less needed to get it really stable.

The case of starting with something like 10.5 V form 2 zeners and than divide down to 10 V could more than compensate for a higher sensitivity to the current setting resistor, because drift of the divider would be less important than in the 7 -> 10 V amplifier case that is often used with the LM399.
 

Offline Andreas

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #523 on: February 15, 2017, 08:08:45 pm »

2. use some kind of delamination procedure (methods required here!) to strip them off the epoxy/plastic encapsulation.
3. characterize / select these de-laminated parts for an averaging type voltage reference in a custom heating assembly.


Hello,

I also do not understand why you want to delaminate the epoxy.
I would either use the metal can devices or put the epoxy types into a hermetically sealed housing.
Perhaps with some baking of the epoxy before sealing (with glass).

To reach the LTZ 1/f noise spec you would have to average ~16 LM329 devices (selected for low noise of ~4-5 uVpp)
There was a teardown with pictures of a commercial LMx29 reference here in the board somewhere.
I would start there. perhaps you get the handbook with schematics.

good luck

with best regards

Andreas


 

Offline Andreas

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Re: LM399 based 10 V reference
« Reply #524 on: February 15, 2017, 08:20:33 pm »
Just curious- you can still buy all manner of 1Nxxxx series zero TC zeners. I've made some really decent references with those,
Hello,

did you measure 1/f noise of the zener?
I got some 1N829A of different manufactures.
NOS of Motorola and ST (cheap) and some new APD (5 EUR / piece).

I measured different noise from device to device (typical 1.7-3uVpp for Mot+APD)
and very different between ST (up to 22uVpp) and the others.

with best regards

Andreas
 


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