Author Topic: BeMicro CV Questions  (Read 26107 times)

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Offline miguelvp

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2014, 04:12:34 pm »
It's not that simple.

I will have to put everything aside and fire up that project, I did look at the references you linked but I don't have any interest in measuring it again. I will get to it eventually when I wan't to expand the use of that BeScope later on.

Sorry for the ringing in your ears, but Like I mentioned I only gave it a quick look to make sure it was working and then it went back to the queue where it will stay until I decide to look at it again.

Edit: And I do have a short ground tips for my probes, I'm sure the ringing is in there because if the test signal uses the same ground as the scope you don't need that short ground tip, but I will look at it again when I get to it.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 04:23:07 pm by miguelvp »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2014, 05:18:30 pm »
It's not that simple.

I will have to put everything aside and fire up that project, I did look at the references you linked but I don't have any interest in measuring it again. I will get to it eventually when I wan't to expand the use of that BeScope later on.

Edit: And I do have a short ground tips for my probes, I'm sure the ringing is in there because if the test signal uses the same ground as the scope you don't need that short ground tip, but I will look at it again when I get to it.

It is that simple.

As a handwaving starting point, consider that a 330Mb/s signal will have a fall/risetime of (at most) 1ns and a bit period of 3ns. If your probe is 1m long then it will take any signal around 3ns to get from the tip to the scope. Hence if you changed the "ground" voltage at one end, it would take several transition times and about a bit period before "ther other end" even "notices" any change in "ground" voltage. At these frequencies the concept of a single ground is a false myth.

Hence, on the subject of signal integrity and scope probes:
  • you are ignorant
  • you are so ignorant that you do not realise the depth of your ignorance

You will have the same problems every time you look at any fast digital signal on any project or any piece of equipment. So why delay learning?. If you don't learn then you will waste time on the next project involving high speed signals.

You have been pointed towards information that will help you lessen your ignorance.  If you don't follow it up then two English proverbs apply:
  • "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink"
  • "there's none so deaf as them's won't hear"

As I taught my daughter:
  • it is OK to make new mistakes
  • ignorance can be cured; stupidity can't

Edit: my apologies for the somewhat brutal way in which I expressed those truths.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 05:24:01 pm by tggzzz »
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2014, 05:30:57 pm »
The way I see it.

I know how to use a short ground clip, have used it before so it's no mystery to me.
You are the one that is bringing up the signal integrity of the board, go ahead and buy one for $50, I'm not going to stop what I'm doing to satisfy your curiosity.
Terasic has plenty of boards that use the 40 pin connector using only 2 grounds and I've not heard any problems with them.

As for proverbs, this is not one but:
Don't sweat the little stuff. It's a test signal and I'm not interested in the least to find out if the oscillator that is only used for that purpose, rings or not.

If you need to find out, then get the damn thing and try it yourself.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2014, 06:19:15 pm »
I know how to use a short ground clip, have used it before so it's no mystery to me.

That's good, but it certainly isn't evident from what you've written in this thread. Quite the contrary in fact.

Quote
If you need to find out, then get the damn thing and try it yourself.

My interest is limited to raising potential problems before people spend too much time/money on the board. Particularly since the potential problem might well lead to the "Pictures of the device generating 2.5MHz and 5.0MHz ringing square waves".
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2014, 06:30:22 pm »
The burden is not on me to disprove your theory. Never heard any problems with Terasic DE series board having problems with their only 2 ground count 40 pin headers as far as signal integrity problems.

Seems to me the burden is on you, so go for it.

BTW the oscillator has nothing to do with the 40 pin header (other than turning it on)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 06:32:00 pm by miguelvp »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2014, 06:47:34 pm »
If I thought this conversation could produce any new information, I would ask "what theory do you think I am trying to prove?", and note that you've only just got around to mentioning that the 40-pin connector wasn't involved. But that would only lead to a pointless "you said - no I didn't..." conversation, so I won't.

The burden is not on me to disprove your theory. Never heard any problems with Terasic DE series board having problems with their only 2 ground count 40 pin headers as far as signal integrity problems.

Seems to me the burden is on you, so go for it.

BTW the oscillator has nothing to do with the 40 pin header (other than turning it on)
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2014, 07:06:36 pm »
If I thought this conversation could produce any new information, I would ask "what theory do you think I am trying to prove?", and note that you've only just got around to mentioning that the 40-pin connector wasn't involved. But that would only lead to a pointless "you said - no I didn't..." conversation, so I won't.

Well....

Looks like a good price for a reasonable board - except for the 40 pin connectors. One only has two GNDs, the other has 10 but they are somewhat clumped together.

I question whether there might be (unnecessary) signal integrity issues with tightly specified high speed signals.

And then, when considering the lack of GND pins on the 40-way connectors, see what happens w.r.t. ground bounce when many outputs simultaneousl switch in the same direction.

I prefer to see a 1:1 signal:ground for high speed signals, but 4:1 is usually not a problem particularly with differential signals, provided the grounds are near the signals, which implies evenly distributed. "Professional" high-speed board connectors meet those conditions.

You need to get a basic understanding of signal integrity. There's no such thing as a digital signal (except when considering individual electrons); everything is analogue and/or RF.

To give you an inkling of the issues, consider a single output that drives a 50ohm line through 1V in 1ns. That's a current change of 20mA in 1ns, or 20MA/s (and I mean MA/s not mA/s). Now a piece of wire (e.g. in a connector or IC lead) has an inductance of roughly 1nH/mm. Given a 3mm lead in a connector, the 20MA/s will induce a voltage across the wire/inductor of 60mV, i.e 6% of the signal voltage. Now have 10 outputs switching simultaneously, and you have an induced voltage of 600mV, or 60% of the signal.

So in one toy example there aren't any problems. I can believe that.

Now try to use the 40-way connectors "for real", and there may be subtle intermittent failures that can be difficult to diagnose and impossible to cure.

Hint: what's important is the signal's rise/falltime and the setup/hold times on inputs, and edge ringing causing false clocking. And all of those are as relevant for a 1kHz signal as they are for a 50MHz signal.

Very pretty pictures, and I am glad they work for your application.

But I don't think the pictures can be taken as indicating too much about the signal integrity. The waveforms shown are too far removed from the potential problem, so there's no indication of how close to the edge of the envelope (or eye diagram in this case) the waveforms are.

My interest is limited to raising potential problems before people spend too much time/money on the board. Particularly since the potential problem might well lead to the "Pictures of the device generating 2.5MHz and 5.0MHz ringing square waves".

I bet you are very well loved and a nice guy, but not such a nice person on the net.
So prove their connector is inferior, I did put that project aside a several weeks ago and I'm not digging it out for you, because frankly you are more demanding than a spoiled kid.

So just get the thing and prove your groundless theory.

After all Terasic has been using that 40 pin connector for what 5+ years?


Edit: Also I would have expected an "Expert" like you to just glance at the oscillator circuit and realize it only has one enable signal to turn it on and one to switch between full frequency or half frequency:
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 07:21:53 pm by miguelvp »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2014, 08:32:06 pm »
QED
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2014, 09:28:04 pm »
 

Offline weilaweiTopic starter

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2014, 01:09:44 am »
The whole ringing and signal integrity debate aside (thanks for the info, both of you!), I have a further question about the logic levels.

Now, I know that on the chip, the gates act as normal. No confusion there. But on the board, the LEDs and the switches are pulled high, so they're Off when the logic level is 1/True, and On when the logic level is 0/False. So, the default state of an LED is Off/1/True, and the default state of a (let's pick one) tact switch is Off/1/True.

When I press the tact switch, it gets pulled back to ground (excuse my terminology--I'm sure I'm butchering it. Please just try to follow). So, the state of the switch is On/0/False when being pressed (the inverse of what I would expect as a programmer/non-EE). If I map an LED to track the state of the switch, that means that the LED is also pulled low and its state is now On/0/False. So far, so good. Everything works as expected.

Now, I take another switch and another LED. If, in the code, I do (tact_a & tact_b), the result when both are pressed will be 0, and the LED will light up. So far, still good.

Now, I press only one switch. The result of the AND gate is still 0 and the LED is still turned on--the opposite of the intuitive result. I want the LED to reflect the intuitive usage of the switches. If you expect behavior where the LED only turns on when both switches are pressed--that won't happen. In fact, you get behavior that looks like an OR gate. When I let go of both switches, they're both registering Off/1/True, and thus the result of the AND gate is 1, meaning that the LED turns OFF.

In order to get the intuitive output, I needed to swap AND and OR gates, and negate XOR gates. What's the usual way to fix this? I spent quite some time writing out the truth tables for these operations as reflected by the lights and switches on the board. If you simply negate inputs and outputs, you don't get the intuitive result (as the AND and OR gates aren't symmetrical, so you can't just negate them in this case, you need the mirror image of them... swapping AND and OR, though you can negate XOR because it IS symmetrical).

So, what's the usual fix, so that I can write my code as normal, and also see the output as expected? In the simulator, the "switches" and "LEDs" are normally pulled down to ground, so everything works as expected, but on the board (not the chip, the board), you get a mirror image of the expected results. Something was mentioned about adding a "top level schematic", but I don't know what that means. I'm brand spankin' new to Quartus II, FPGAs, and Verilog, although I do have some experience with microcontrollers--but always wired the other way around (GND is false/0, VCC is true/1).
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 01:15:22 am by weilawei »
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2014, 01:19:18 am »
I would use a top_level schematic and add your input pins and wire them to NOT gates if they are 1 when unpressed, also on the outputs use NOT gates as well if they are on when 0. Make a symbol of your Verilog/VHDL code and wire it on the top_level schematic.

I can add a simple tutorial with images if you need more detailed clarification.

As for the signal integrity/ringing I assumed that with the oscillator schematic it would be clear it was not due to the header. But I guess he assumed the signal was coming from the FPGA. Misunderstandings happen. But the insulting and derogatory tone, well that's unfortunate.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 01:24:07 am by miguelvp »
 

Offline weilaweiTopic starter

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2014, 01:24:25 am »
I would use a top_level schematic and add your input pins and wire them to NOT gates if they are 1 when unpressed, also on the outputs use NOT gates as well if they are on when 0. Make a symbol of your Verilog/VHDL code and wire it on the top_level schematic.

I can add a simple tutorial with images if you need more detailed clarification.

That would actually be awesome, but you really don't have to. Is there a good tutorial somewhere out there on this? All the tutorials I find seem to be aimed at VHDL. Should I be learning VHDL instead? My google-fu seems to be failing me. I appreciate you taking the time to help a n00b.

EDIT: I suspect that what my EE friend was trying to get at is the same thing as you've suggested, but I'm about as dense as a brick wrt Verilog right now. Perhaps a comprehensive Verilog tutorial for n00bs is out there somewhere?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 01:31:18 am by weilawei »
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2014, 01:38:48 am »
There is always the my_first_fpga tutorial from Altera:

http://www.altera.com/literature/tt/tt_my_first_fpga.pdf

The thing is that you don't need the clocks and other things but they use a top level schematic and then they add a counter symbol produced by verilog code.

Only things you have to change is the device to match yours and the pin planner to match your board.

Also the pll ip might not be available for the Cyclone V (I'm pretty sure the one they use there is not the same) so It might be confusing and for what you want you don't need a PLL anyways.

I don't mind doing a simple tutorial if you post the verilog code that you want to do with the logic as you expect (not the inverted stuff) and the pin planner for your board.
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2014, 06:23:25 am »
I decided to do it based on the code on your blog, let's see how this comes out, 26 pictures and 30 steps, taking some shortcuts because I think you know the programming part of things.

1) File>New Project Wizard

2) Click Next

3) Fill in the New Project Wizard and click next. (note you can't have spaces in the project names nor directories.


4) Might ask to create the folder so click Yes.

5) Select Family Cyclone V (E/GX/GT/SX/SE/ST) Name filter: 5CEFA2F23C7 select the only chip listed and click Finish


6) Select Assignments>Device and click on the button in the middle named "Device and Pin Options..."

7) Under Category select "Unused Pins" and set it to "As input tri-stated" (default is weak pull that will make the LEDs glow even when off) Click OK then OK again to dismiss the Device popup.


8 ) Create a Schematic (.bdf) File>New>Block Diagram/Schematic File


9) Save the generated bdf file as sample1_top: File>Save As... (should be the default) needs to be the same name as your top project set in step 3, it associates it as the top level. Click Save
The top level can be schematic, Verilog, VHDL, System Verilog,etc.


10) Lets add your Verilog code. File>New>Verilog HDL File click OK


11) Save the created Verilog1.v file as hello_world.v: File>Save As... type hello_world.v under File name and click Save.


12) Input your code in hello_world.v and save it

Code: [Select]
`timescale 1ns / 1ps
 
module hello_world(
    input wire tact_a,
    input wire tact_b,
    output wire [7:0] led
);
 
//  Turn off unused LEDs
assign led[2] = 1'b0;
assign led[3] = 1'b0;
assign led[4] = 1'b0;
 
//  Status LEDs for tactile switches
assign led[0] = tact_a;
assign led[1] = tact_b;

//  Normal behaviour due to schematic top level fixing the inputs/outputs
assign led[5] = tact_a & tact_b;    // AND
assign led[6] = tact_a | tact_b;    // OR
assign led[7] = tact_a ^ tact_b;    // XOR

endmodule

13) Let's make a symbol out of your code: File>Create/Update>Create Symbol Files for Current File
This will convert your hello_world.v to a symbol file (.sym)

14) Now let's add the hello_world.v symbol to the top-level file, click on the sample1_top.bdf tab

15) Right click on the canvas and select: Insert>Symbol and expand Project on the popup window and select hello_world and click OK


16) The symbol will be attached to your cursor, click somewhere in the canvas to place it.


17) Lets add the input pins, you can right click on the canvas then insert symbol and look for the primitives etc.. but let's use the icon as shown here.


18) The pin will be attached to your cursor, click where you want it and you will have another pin attached to the cursor, place the 2nd pin and press ESC when you have both pins in the canvas.


19) NOT time: right click on the canvas and select: Insert>Symbol

20) Expand libraries>primitives>logic>not check Repeat-insert mode and click OK (or type not under the name box, check Repeat-insert mode and click OK)


21) Place 3 NOTs, press ESC when done, then click on an input and move it so it connect to the NOT and same thing with the other input.


22) move the cursor to the end of one not, the cursor will change to a wire, click and drag the wire to tac_a, a square box will show showing it's connected release the mouse button.


23) Do the same for the other input and from the symbol output to the third NOT.


24) Lets add an output pin, after placing it press ESC


25) Right click on the output pin, select Properties and rename it, the [7..0] makes the output an 8 bit bus.


26) Connect a bus from the output pin to the output of the NOT gate. If you do it the other way around it will only do a wire instead of a bus. You can also use the bus icon to force it to a bus.


27) Right click on pin_name1 select properties and rename it to BUTTON_A and the other one to BUTTON_B, Also one of the NOT gates has the same instance name as hello_world, right click and rename it inst3, Then do a File>Save All


If you don't rename the duplicated instance name it will fail during compilation and double clicking on the error will take you to the schematic right where the problem is at.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 06:44:55 am by miguelvp »
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2014, 06:23:44 am »
Continuation

28) Before we can assign the pins you must compile, or at least start Analysis & Elaboration, select: Processing>Start>Start Analysis & Elaboration.

29) Time to assign the FPGA input and output pins. Select: Assignments>Pin Planner
Thanks to your blog I got the right LED pins :-+ (I left default voltages)



30) Time to program the device: Tools>Programmer. Hardware Setup... select the USB-Blaster (of course you would have to have the driver installed)
Add File, select output_files/sample1_top.sof and hit the Start button.


Back on Quartus, you can use File>Convert Programming Files... to create a permanent JTAG Indirect Configuration File (.jic) so you don't have to be tethered. There are also other methods so your board will store the configuration and load and run it when powered up. Edit: Programming it that way will take a different tutorial, on this little one we are just going to stick with the .sof file

Pictures of the twin boards the one on the right features the BeScope, the one on the left (and the one we are programming has the interposer on the back)
First picture is both buttons unpressed and all LEDs off


One button pressed


The other


and both


« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 09:41:28 am by miguelvp »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #40 on: October 04, 2014, 08:31:47 am »
The whole ringing and signal integrity debate aside (thanks for the info, both of you!),

You're welcome, it is good to be able to help people make new mistakes :)
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline weilaweiTopic starter

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2014, 03:31:36 pm »
Wow. I woke up to find your tutorial, miguelvp, and I was floored. Thank you so much for that. It's utterly incredible. Altera should be hiring you for their tutorials. In the words of Dave Jones, "That's a real bobby dazzler! Worked a treat!"  :-+ :-+ It really cleared up all my questions and showed me a bunch of tricks I'd missed (like using the top level schematic to populate the list for the pin planner instead of typing them all in).

It worked flawlessly (I've included a few pictures of my board after following your tutorial) and I learned a ton along the way. Thank you so much. This community is really incredible and the response from everyone here has been absolutely stunning. There's not an emoticon here to express how grateful I am for all the help.

Now, I ought to go finish my lists of pin locations for that card edge and start in on the next project! Thanks again (to both miguelvp and tggzzz)!





« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 03:36:45 pm by weilawei »
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2014, 05:35:37 pm »
Glad it worked. I'm a noob as well and been playing around with them for about one year but not all the time so I  did pick up a couple of things along the way. But I'm a software engineer for many decades so I understand steps :)

You can use the direct link if you want to refer to it:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/bemicro-cv-questions/msg524041/#msg524041

Or you can copy the whole thing if you want and alter what you need for your blog, no need to even credit me really, because it's really not that big of a deal, I mean this is pretty much a concise version of my_first_fpga but skipping some redundancy.

As for doing tutorials for Altera, nah, they are better at it. I would recommend you take the altera university classes (the fpga curriculum) . Edit: they are free although you have to create an account (free as well).

http://www.altera.com/education/training/curriculum/fpga/trn-fpga.html

plus they have a lot of other free training resources.

Edit: You should submit a bug report to Arrow on the swapped LED pins and on the missing edge pins as well.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 05:59:09 pm by miguelvp »
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2014, 07:20:38 pm »
One more thing.

If you make changes to your Verilog file (hello_world.v) Even adding new inputs, you can update your symbol in the schematic editor by right clicking on the component and selecting "Update Symbol or Block..."


However doing this might disconnect the wires so move the block around to make sure the wires didn't get disconnected.

I don't think it will update the symbol automatically so just remember that you have to update it manually on changes.

Also play around with the Edit Selected Symbol, it allows you to add descriptions and other things.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 07:22:14 pm by miguelvp »
 
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Offline dreschel

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2016, 06:29:06 pm »
Does anyone know if the BEmicro CV is still available? I would like to purchase one, new or working used.
Thanks, Bill
 

Offline ebclr

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2016, 02:29:26 am »
According to arrow site no stock but can be back ordered

Bemicro CV
Bemicro MAX10
BEmicroVA9

https://www.arrow.com/en/products/search?q=bemicro
 

Offline dreschel

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2016, 01:43:23 pm »
Thanks. I did query Arrow last week and never heard back... that was why I was asking. I just did the Live Person thing and said they were working on the backorder time quote. I will post when I here what that backorder status is.
 

Offline dreschel

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2016, 02:30:25 pm »
I just heard back from Arrow that the lead time for the BEMICRO CV is 9+ weeks.
That plus gets me. Kind of makes me wonder if that is saying: Never.
If anyone has an extra that is gathering dust and they would like to sell it, I would be happy to purchase one.
Bill
 

Offline dreschel

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2016, 12:45:22 pm »
I really do need one of these. I would pay for shipping and throw in a 20% profit ( a bid of $60) for a functioning BEMICRO CV...
 

Offline ebclr

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Re: BeMicro CV Questions
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2016, 12:31:47 pm »
 


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