Author Topic: How dead are 4bit MCUs?  (Read 10783 times)

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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2022, 02:45:16 am »
What does it even mean for a CPU to be "4 bit"?

Surely if it's going to be useful then RAM addresses are going to have to be at least 8 bits, if not 12 or 16. The same with program code addresses, if they are different. Maybe I/O space can get away with 4 bits (if it is different to RAM).

Surely instructions are bigger than 4 bits too?

A 4 bit ALU? Well, there's the Z80.

4 bit accumulator?  I guess so. You can deal with booleans, decimal or hex digits.

Given all the things in it that *can't* be 4 bit, is it really that much of a savings over an 8051, PIC, even 6800 or 8080?

Yeah, not sure either. Maybe it's mainly a 4-bit ALU with a 4-bit internal data path, with most instructions, even the simplest ones, taking a number of cycles to complete. Could have a look at the HP Saturn CPUs to get an idea of what that could be. Could not find info on the kind of process they were using for those, but given the application and the date, I would venture something > 1 µm.

Would probably save some resources, but again the point for a standalone (meaning not a core that you can include in some ASIC along with other stuff) MCU using any decently modern process node sounds rather moot.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 02:48:00 am by SiliconWizard »
 

Offline amyk

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2022, 04:44:40 am »
The ultra-cheap 4-function calculators use 4-bit mask ROM MCUs running at a few kHz.
 

Offline brucehoult

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2022, 05:41:14 am »
The ultra-cheap 4-function calculators use 4-bit mask ROM MCUs running at a few kHz.

They must have several KB of program code ROM, a PC big enough to address it (12 bits?), instructions big enough to call subroutines in different parts of it, a stack deep enough to hold a couple of levels of return address the same size as the PC.
 

Offline PCB.Wiz

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2022, 06:13:19 am »
Well, for example you could get this for 9 cents @ QTY of 500 in the pre-COVID times https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/Microcontroller-Units-MCUs-MPUs-SOCs_Nuvoton-Tech-NUC029FAE_C2640145.html

Hehe, yes that was then...
Now, the cheapest MCU in stock from Nuvoton at lcsc is 8-bit
100+ US$0.4527  58048 In Stock   MS51FB9AE   16KB -40℃~+105℃ 2.4V~5.5V 51Series 1@x6ch/16bit 1@x8ch/12bit 1 1.25KB 4MHz~32MHz TSSOP-20
 

Offline PCB.Wiz

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2022, 08:01:59 am »
I have found a very small number of 4bit MCUs still on the market, but not as many as I expected.  Aren't they still used in coffee makers, remote controls, microwave ovens, toys, etc? 

That depends what you mean by 'on the market'  :)

For distributor sales and 'not massive' sales volumes, most designers these days use flash/MTP MCUs and that means they follow the process nodes the big chip vendors use.

Even OTP MCUs ( of all bit-sizes) are fading from the landscape, as the process nodes become EOL.

LCSC still lists a few OTP parts for 6c/100, and MTP parts start about 10c/100 - users do not care if the cores inside those are 4 or 8 bit data and 8/12/14/16 bit opcodes.
 

Online woofy

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2022, 09:33:59 am »
What does it even mean for a CPU to be "4 bit"?

Surely if it's going to be useful then RAM addresses are going to have to be at least 8 bits, if not 12 or 16. The same with program code addresses, if they are different. Maybe I/O space can get away with 4 bits (if it is different to RAM).

Surely instructions are bigger than 4 bits too?

A 4 bit ALU? Well, there's the Z80.

4 bit accumulator?  I guess so. You can deal with booleans, decimal or hex digits.

Given all the things in it that *can't* be 4 bit, is it really that much of a savings over an 8051, PIC, even 6800 or 8080?

Generally, a CPU's bit width is the width of its data path. That makes the Z80 an 8 bit CPU despite the 4 bit ALU in early versions.
In reality its not so easy, there are always exceptions.
Was EDSAC a 1, 17 or 35 bit processor?
Is the MC68008 an 8, 16 or 32 bit processor?
There is a RISC V implementation (SERV) that processes 1 bit at a time but it's still a 32 bit CPU.

Bit width, like MHz, is a poor metric to measure performance or capability of a processor.
 
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Offline brucehoult

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2022, 10:26:35 am »
What does it even mean for a CPU to be "4 bit"?

Surely if it's going to be useful then RAM addresses are going to have to be at least 8 bits, if not 12 or 16. The same with program code addresses, if they are different. Maybe I/O space can get away with 4 bits (if it is different to RAM).

Surely instructions are bigger than 4 bits too?

A 4 bit ALU? Well, there's the Z80.

4 bit accumulator?  I guess so. You can deal with booleans, decimal or hex digits.

Given all the things in it that *can't* be 4 bit, is it really that much of a savings over an 8051, PIC, even 6800 or 8080?

Generally, a CPU's bit width is the width of its data path. That makes the Z80 an 8 bit CPU despite the 4 bit ALU in early versions.
In reality its not so easy, there are always exceptions.
Was EDSAC a 1, 17 or 35 bit processor?
Is the MC68008 an 8, 16 or 32 bit processor?
There is a RISC V implementation (SERV) that processes 1 bit at a time but it's still a 32 bit CPU.

Bit width, like MHz, is a poor metric to measure performance or capability of a processor.

It's pretty fundamental (at least to me) that the bitness of a computer is a property of the instruction set, not the implementation. All CPUs that run the same instruction set have the same bitness. So the 68008, 68000, 68020 are all 32 bit. And all RV32 implementations are 32 bit.

It's tricky in the case of the "8 bit" microprocessors such as the 8080, 6800, z80, 6502, 6809 to decide whether they are 8 bit or 16 bit because they all have a mix of 8 and 16 bit features.

But whatever the answer is, it's a question that must be answered by looking at the programmer's manual, NOT at the physical circuit or the packaging.

Look at the z80. It has a lot of 16 bit registers. You can push and pop 16 bit registers. You can {add,adc,sbc} (but not sub) {bc,de,sp} to {hl,ix,iy} or add {hl,ix.iy} to themselves. There is 16 bit {inc,dec} on all registers. You can move {hl,ix,iy} to sp. You can load a 16 bit constant into any 16 bit register. You can load/store between an absolute address from any 16 bit register. You can exchange hl with de, or {hl,ix,iy} with the top of stack. You can exchange all of {bc,de,hl} with their shadow registers at the same time.

Other than the above move to sp or swapping hl and de, there are no 16 bit register move instructions -- you have to use two 8 bit move instructions ("ld" in z80 mnemonics). There is no 16 bit compare. There is no 16 bit load or store except to an absolute location -- you can't use any of the register indirect or indexed addressing modes. You have to do two 8 bit transfers, and adjust the pointer or offset between.

It's certainly much easier / shorter / faster to deal with 16 bit variables on the 8080 and z80 than on the 6502. But I think the killer, which alone disqualifies it as a 16 bit ISA, is that there is no 16 bit compare and the 16 bit arithmetic operations that do exist don't set flags in the way 8 bit ones do.


The 6809 on the other hand has 16 bit add and subtract and compare (only memory to register, not register to register, but that's the same with 8 bit). You can load or store any 16 bit register using the full set of addressing modes. You can move or swap between any pair of 16 bit registers. The only thing really lacking 16 bit operations is AND/OR/XOR and shift/rotate.

There is very little daylight between the 6809 (an "8 bit" CPU) and the 8088 (a "16 bit" CPU). The biggest difference is the segment registers.
 
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2022, 11:59:54 am »
Here are the first two of several Google hits:
https://www.emmicroelectronic.com/sites/default/files/products/datasheets/em6607_ds.pdf
https://www.electronics-lab.com/bit4-is-a-4bit-microcontroller-fully-programmable-with-only-three-buttons/

I searched on 4(four) bit  here, including some permutations, and got nothing.

I know of EM Micro.  I haven't gotten a quote from them, but they don't seem to be cheaper than the 8 bit devices.  Someone has pointed to an 8 bit device that is only $0.05 at LCSC, Padauk PMS150C.  It can be run at 5V.  So even if production is 1E6 units, I'm wondering if a 4-bit MCU is useful.  Can the price be much lower?
You are not buying 4 bit microcontrollers from these guys. You buy 4 bitters directly from the semiconductor company, because the mask ROM.
And they don't really make sense unless it is a chip-on-board. I have a quotation somewhere for a MC34063 clone for 4 cents a piece, in a SO8 package for a single reel. Your microcontroller should be below this in price, somewhere in the 0.5-1 cent region I believe. And I wouldn't be surprised if it wouldn't make any sense to use it. Do you know prices of the 8 bit 8051 clones and STM8s in the millions?
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2022, 12:25:21 pm »
Indeed, many 8-bit CPUs have a lot of "16-bitness" in them. A 4-bit CPU would have even more 8-bitness to it, and probably similar level of 16-bitness. Any savings are going to be just minimal.

But you totally can live without any 32-bitness. For simple control applications, IMHO a true 16-bit CPU seems quite sweet spot regarding power, cost, etc. Numbers exceeding -128..+127 range are extremely common, to the point that the extra logic in ALU is not sitting unused that much. Fewer memory operations are needed, code runs in fewer cycles, clock speed can be slower to compensate. And the whole CPU can be then 16-bit, not a strange mix where you have 8-bit ALU which you use to crunch 16-bit numbers 75% of the time, plus then some special registers that can be combined to perform a few special 16-bit operations, or used as pointers.

This is to say, any power/cost savings from a 8-bit CPU is already quite questionable, compared to a 16-bitter. I see absolutely no point in a 4-bitter.

Now, for very simple applications, a 32-bit CPU is indeed mostly waste compared to 16-bit, yet that's where we are going nevertheless.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 12:27:26 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Online wraper

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2022, 01:00:18 pm »
megaAVR core as many other 8-bitters have more gates than Cortex M0 core (12k), so one could argue that spending silicon on making those is a waste. Only heavily gate count optimized 8 bit cores have a significant advantage in this regard.
 
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Offline Retep

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2022, 01:07:17 pm »
The ultra-cheap 4-function calculators use 4-bit mask ROM MCUs running at a few kHz.

They must have several KB of program code ROM, a PC big enough to address it (12 bits?), instructions big enough to call subroutines in different parts of it, a stack deep enough to hold a couple of levels of return address the same size as the PC.

To get an idea of the kind of MCU these 4-function calculators may have: http://files.righto.com/calculator/TI_calculator_simulator.html (btw. this chip has only 320 11-bit words of program memory).
The MCU used here is not general purpose, it is specifically tailored for calculators. I don't know what those ultra-cheap 4-function calculators use these days, but I wouldn't be surprised if they use designs created several decades ago.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 01:09:54 pm by Retep »
 
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Offline brucehoult

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2022, 11:14:45 pm »
The ultra-cheap 4-function calculators use 4-bit mask ROM MCUs running at a few kHz.

They must have several KB of program code ROM, a PC big enough to address it (12 bits?), instructions big enough to call subroutines in different parts of it, a stack deep enough to hold a couple of levels of return address the same size as the PC.

To get an idea of the kind of MCU these 4-function calculators may have: http://files.righto.com/calculator/TI_calculator_simulator.html (btw. this chip has only 320 11-bit words of program memory).

Very interesting, thanks!

So, no doubt, the actual chip at the time was microcoded or hardware sequenced using a 4 bit data path and ALU but that's just implementation, and a later fully-compatible chip could implement the same ISA and run the same programs much more quickly using a parallel implementation instead of a serial one.

From the point of view of the programmer writing those 320 instructions -- and this is what determines the number of instructions that need to be written and executed, and the program size, this ...

- is a 44 bit chip with three 44 bit registers and three 11 bit mask registers, plus a mask+constant ROM

- instructions are 11 bits, large enough to contain a 9 bit address for an instruction to jump to

- a single instruction can add, compare, move, exchange an entire 44 bit register with another one. There are both binary and BCD add and subtract instructions.

- ALU instructions contain a 4 bit field that selects one of 16 digit mask and/or constant combinations. You can operate on the whole register (with carries propagating if it's an add), or just on the 2 exponent digits (rightmost), or just on the 9 mantissa digits (leftmost).

- there are also "mask" field values that select just the mantissa digits and also provide a constant "1" value, or just the exponent digits and also provide a constant "1" value, or just the least significant mantissa digit and a constant "1" value. And a couple of others which are more mysterious.


If z80 is an 8 bit ISA, not a 4 bit one (and it is!) then this is a 44 bit ISA.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2022, 01:32:33 am by brucehoult »
 

Online Doctorandus_P

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2022, 11:39:56 pm »
In the old days when transistors were big and expensive, there was a 80386, which was produced in an "SX" and in an "DX" variant. They ran the same code, but the "SX" only had an 16 bit external databus while the "DX" variant had a 32 bit databus to the outside world.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2022, 01:23:49 am by Doctorandus_P »
 

Offline chris_leyson

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2022, 12:34:44 am »
Texas Instruments TMS1000 springs to mind for some reason.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2022, 01:06:19 am »
The reason you don't find many 4 bitters in the 'market' is because they are ROM devices. There are very few, if any, that feature user programmable code space. You have to deal with the manufacturer directly.
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Offline brucehoult

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2022, 01:30:33 am »
In the old days when transistors were big and expensive, there was a 80386, which was produced in an "SX" and in an "DX" variant. They ran the same code, but the "SX" only had an 16 bit external databus while the "DX" variant had a 32 bit databus to the outside world.

And the 8086 had an 8088 version (FAR more widely used) that had only an 8 bit data bus.

And the 68000 had a 68008 version (almost never used .. the Sinclair QL is an exception) that had an 8 bit data bus.

And the 68020 could work on an 8 bit, 16 bit, or 32 bit bus.

And the ARM7TDMI could use either a 32 bit or 16 bit data bus. The main reason for the Thumb ISA being developed was not code size, but speed when a 16 bit bus was used.

 

Online Doctorandus_P

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2022, 01:53:14 am »
I just saw Dave's old teardown of a toothbrush again:

NL
12:04 / 32:53
EEVblog #284 - Braun Toothbrush Teardown


Curiously, this has such an EM6600 4-bitter, while my newer toothbrush has an MSP430, and I wonder why?

Maybe they got a better offer from TI?
Maybe all of Brauns engineers ate too much lead, went drooling and cross eyed and they needed TI's reference design to get something going again:
https://www.ti.com/lit/ug/tiduaz7/tiduaz7.pdf

Maybe they had some disagreement with that EM factory or their development tools?
Maybe they preferred a flash based controller that can be customized to different toothbrushes and thus reduce inventory?
Maybe they don't want to be dependent on one uC manufacturer?

This one shows a 430G2332 @ 06:50. 
« Last Edit: June 14, 2022, 02:24:27 am by Doctorandus_P »
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2022, 03:14:05 am »
Curiously, this has such an EM6600 4-bitter, while my newer toothbrush has an MSP430, and I wonder why?

Maybe they got a better offer from TI?

Maybe, but, just maybe, it's also from the fact the EM6600 series, at least from what I got, is mask-ROM only, which would make it much more cumbersome when firmware changes, and would make firmware updates impossible. While I don't think those toothbrushes can ever be updated by end-users, that would still make any change in factory much more flexible. But there could be myriads of other reasons.

 

Offline brucehoult

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2022, 07:10:27 am »
Curiously, this has such an EM6600 4-bitter, while my newer toothbrush has an MSP430, and I wonder why?

Maybe they got a better offer from TI?

Maybe, but, just maybe, it's also from the fact the EM6600 series, at least from what I got, is mask-ROM only, which would make it much more cumbersome when firmware changes, and would make firmware updates impossible. While I don't think those toothbrushes can ever be updated by end-users, that would still make any change in factory much more flexible. But there could be myriads of other reasons.

MSP430 is a very decent and compiler-friendly true 16 bit ISA: 16 bit addresses, 16 bit arithmetic, 16 bit instructions. And nice compact code.  I've actually been thinking about seeing how it would work as a "bytecode" for 6502 -- see how large an emulator would be, and what slow-down vs native code. It's hard to beat Woz's SWEET16 on either metric, but there isn't optimising gcc/llvm for that! Both should be much faster and also more compact than UCSD P-code, JVM, or the like (interpreting wasm?)

Anyway .. EM6600. I found a data sheet for EM6607. 2k x 16 bit ROM, 96 x 4 bit RAM, 5 x 4 bit I/O ports, 72 instructions, 2 clocks (32 KHz?) per instruction. EM6626 expands ROM to 4k x 16, and RAM to 128 x 4. EM6600 seems to have 80 x 4 RAM.

EM6607 datasheet shows "RAM" addresses 96-126 used for I/O, interrupt, timer etc. So how does EM6626 get 128 x 4 RAM? 8 bit addresses?

I didn't find the instruction set yet ... is it secret?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2022, 07:36:00 am by brucehoult »
 

Offline westfw

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2022, 10:53:27 am »
I have some tmp47 toshiba 4bit chips with OTP EPROM technology.
They look A lot like an 8bit PIC crossed with an 8080.  Instruction words longer than data words, with registers and alu at 4bits wide. H and L 4bit registers linked together to make a HL pointer that can address 4bit data memory.  4bit wide PORTS, too.


I had high hopes of doing obscure things, but never got past the search for tools.  There isn’t even a free official assembler.  All very 1980s.  And then the memory wants to be programmed like an 80s multi-voltage eprom, too.


Has anybody ever seen a flash-based 4bit chip?



 

Offline free_electron

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2022, 01:29:04 pm »
I have some tmp47 toshiba 4bit chips with OTP EPROM technology.
They look A lot like an 8bit PIC crossed with an 8080.  Instruction words longer than data words, with registers and alu at 4bits wide. H and L 4bit registers linked together to make a HL pointer that can address 4bit data memory.  4bit wide PORTS, too.


I had high hopes of doing obscure things, but never got past the search for tools.  There isn’t even a free official assembler.  All very 1980s.  And then the memory wants to be programmed like an 80s multi-voltage eprom, too.


Has anybody ever seen a flash-based 4bit chip?
nope. the problem is the need for a floating gate in anything e(e)prom/flash. That is "costly" process and mask wise. the memory array is large. for cost sensitive stuff that is prohibitive.
assemblers ? the toolchains (if you can call it that...) were mainly written in fortran77 and ran on PDP or VAX... some were available on intel MDS under ISIS and or CP/M . some were on IBM370. there were other systems like motorola's Exorciser or they were custom machines altogether. NEC, Toshiba, Sanyo , Hitachi, National semi  all had their own computers (most 8080/8085 based) and came with the required software.
These early development systems were typically S100 bus (like...) like the intel MDS or Starplex. you would plug in target CPU boards. the host cpu (Z80 , 8080 8085) ran the toolchain and 'host' board could execute it. they were hardware emulators with full breakpoint and trace capability. Old intel and National semi (early 80's) typically have lots of documentation on those systems. I used the MDS for 8051 development (PL/M compiler , A51 assembler and including the emulator pod) and later an Isis machine for i960. I have seen a starplex, but never used it.
http://www.1000bit.it/support/manuali/national%20semi%20conductor/starplex.pdf


Many of these devices used a single metal layer. some had double-exposure . the chips were made ready with the rom 'unmasked' when the rom mask arrived a second exposure was done to pattern the rom. so they had half-processed material and would combine the metal mask from the base mask + the rom mask.

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Online DavidAlfa

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2022, 05:50:41 pm »
Rreally, I don't think there's any place in the market for 4-bit programmable mcus.
Perhabs large-scale ROM mask mcus for toys and such, but not flash/eeprom.
The're quite a lot of very cheap 8-bitters around, like the famous 3-cent Padauk mcus.
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Offline free_electron

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2022, 07:07:02 pm »
Rreally, I don't think there's any place in the market for 4-bit programmable mcus.
Perhabs large-scale ROM mask mcus for toys and such, but not flash/eeprom.
The're quite a lot of very cheap 8-bitters around, like the famous 3-cent Padauk mcus.
The 4-bitters were never e(e)prom or flash. Mask rom only.
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Offline benst

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2022, 07:32:13 pm »
The 4-bitters were never e(e)prom or flash. Mask rom only.

The NEC uPD75P402 was a 4-bit MCU with OTPROM. It could be programmed on a regular programmer set to 27c256. There were some others in that family too. Used it as an RC-5 infrared decoder.

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Offline coppice

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Re: How dead are 4bit MCUs?
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2022, 07:47:14 pm »
Curiously, this has such an EM6600 4-bitter, while my newer toothbrush has an MSP430, and I wonder why?
The MSP430 that goes into most toothbrushes in a 0.9V MCU. This means it can run from a single NiMh cell, when its near to exhaustion. Most other 0.9V MCUs are extremely slow. I think they wanted something up to the job of motor control in this application. A lot of brushes now use lithium batteries and don't have the same voltage constraint.
 


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