Pictures within microcontrollers

[warner]

Hi there all,
looking for some advice, within microcontrollers, i have been working on a project for over 6 months, its a medical use, im trying to develop it for children, whom are prone to heart conditions, within the hope of being able to save their life, or at least give them a chance of survival, the basic idea: to somehow input ecg readings from children whom have experienced heart conditions, and to be able to match the ecg read out to the saved ecg read out to tell the parents what is going on.
Im using the msp430 range of microcontroller, for this project, im wanting to either store scans of ecg readings or capture ecg reading to be able to use them as a matching system.
So far i have designed the system circuit, and am in process of testing it, but im not overally experienced with microcontrollers, but find them fascinating .

[suicidaleggroll]

msp430s are ideal for low power, low processing applications.  They tap out at 16 MHz on most models and 25 MHz on the fastest ones, you're not going to get a whole lot done with that little processing power.  It's almost a requirement that everything is done in integer or fixed point space as well.  Since there is no floating point co-processor, as soon as you introduce a float into the mix the libraries required will blow your program size up and slow the system to a crawl.

That said, it may be able to keep up with your demands, but you need to get a LOT more specific with your requirements.  What, exactly, does "match up the ecg read out to the saved ecg read out" mean?  What does this process involve, mathematically?  What are these ecg read outs?  What kind of format?  How large (msp430s are quite limited in RAM)?  How quickly are they coming in and through what interface?  How is the processor going to "tell" the parents the result?  A couple of blinking LEDs, a full graphical touch screen LCD, or somewhere in between?

[warner]

Although i do like microcontrollers, as i have a few PICs, a few MSP430's, and some arduino's ATMeGa's.
i have only recently got into mcu's,
What im looking to do is match up an Electrocardiography, with some form of image, or the details of the Electrocardiography of a person whom has had a heart condition.
Or i would like to be able to capture the Electrocardiography results, so they could be saved, to be able to use to match up with a real time Electrocardiography readout.
format would be by lcd screen graphics display.
How quickly they come through a normal heartbeat is around 60 BPM.
Im wanting something responsive fast to process, decent amount of memory ( EEprom),
im aware the msp430F2013 is not the best for memory, but when i first looked into mcu's i had no idea of what i was looking for, and choice the msp range simply because it seemed easier to use, i dont have a preference, i prefer to choose by working out what is best to use for the project, i am enthusiastic and love working and doing project, but im not experienced within microcontrollers, but really want to learn.
I have read aot of pdf's, scoured the net, watched videos, learnt about the architectures.... and still learning.
This information can be worked out mathematically yes, but i would need Electrocardiography graphs to be able to calculate the exact time frames, and voltages.

When i say match i mean the live Electrocardiography would "match" the captured or saved Electrocardiography.

[warner]

Dont get me wrong, i do know and understand there are plenty of medical applications out there, and i am aware i have not over defined what im trying to accomplish, and you are correct, in that what im doing is not a hobby project, its a project i started in college, very basic, but once college had finished, i know what i wanted to do, specialize in medical applications, because i want to do something that matters, something im passionate about, but with little experience, and only ONC qualified, im unlikely to get hired for electronics,
although i have not disclosed the full scope of this, but i have been working on this for 1 and a half years, i have asked for advice before ( a different forum), as was told this is a hard market, find something else to do.

Im aware what im doing is not easy and there are many professionals whom are better equipped for this field, that i am.

For me its not about the cost or the experience or quals, its about doing what i know, and learning how to use my knowledge to learn how to build it, and build it properly, i could do into detail about what im looking to do, exactly, but also nervous someone else may take my idea.
At the end of the day my aim is to want to save the lives of children from heart conditions,
oh and thank you for your comment

[suicidaleggroll]

I have to agree with evb149.

The invention of a device like this typically follows several important steps:
1) Gather the necessary information - ECGs from healthy patients, sick patients, questionable patients, etc.
2) Develop an algorithm that can analyze any given ECG and return some kind of probability of heart malfunction.
3) Quantify the performance of this algorithm, determine the accuracy, chance of false positives or false negatives, etc.
4) Iterate the algorithm as necessary to bring the accuracy to the desired level.
5) Analyze the logistics of implementing this algorithm in hardware.  Is the device supposed to gather the ECG itself, or import it from some other device, if so, how?  Will it be web-based, where it uploads the ECG to some central server where the hard processing is performed, or will it be stand-alone?
6) Design a circuit to implement this algorithm
7) Iterate as necessary

I'm not even including certifications that need to be obtained in the medical market, etc. these are simply the steps required to bring any new product to fruition.  I assumed in my first post that you had already completed steps 1-5, but it seems from your response that you're still at step 0 and are trying to jump straight into step 6.

If this is not the case, please let us know.  Otherwise, I highly suggest you jump back to step 1.

[warner]

The device would be handheld, wireless, to be used at home with young children, there will be a database of known conditions to "match" too.
I have a number of reports that i have made for this, circuit designed.
It will be stand alone.
There will be an algorithm, for this.

[suicidaleggroll]

The device would be handheld, wireless, to be used at home with young children

You're still focusing on the usability of the end product without regard for how you're actually going to implement anything.

there will be a database of known conditions to "match" too.

A database where?  In what format?  How will the device access it?  What does "match" mean?  Are we talking a cross spectral analysis?  Cross correlation?  Least square fit?  Poly fit?  What?

I have a number of reports that i have made for this, circuit designed.

I don't see how you could have possibly designed a circuit without knowing the basic device interconnection.  Where is your uC getting the ECG data from and how?  All you've said so far is that it's an "image", but what does that mean?  Is it a bitmap?  jpeg?  png?  tiff?  What kind of interface?  spi?  i2c?  uart?  ethernet?  What kind of data rate (60 BPM is not a data rate)?

Again, you're jumping straight to step 6 without bothering with steps 1-5.  Or maybe you have completed 1-4 and you're just being secretive, but your responses here make it very clear you haven't looked into step 5 at all yet other than some very high level brainstorming.

[AndreasF]

It sounds like you are trying to do something like this.

[tggzzz]

looking for some advice, within microcontrollers, i have been working on a project for over 6 months, its a medical use, im trying to develop it for children, whom are prone to heart conditions, within the hope of being able to save their life, or at least give them a chance of survival,

Your device could, even when working to specification result in a death. What happens when, not if, your devices fails to flag a condition and the child subsequently dies?

Having a device that is 99.9% accurate is insufficient - even if you could achieve that accuracy.

Don't even think of developing a device until you have proven algorithms plus answers to the above questions.

(Long long ago, my "solution" when developing a lung ventilator was to explicitly define the device was not to be used for any life support applications! The customer understood, and purchased it )

[warner]

ok,
im trying to build this heart detection machine, for children with heart defects,
it works by sensors being in a sheet, so its contact less, for newborns, it pick sup there heartbeat , and measures it,
looking for signs of heart problems,
yes im still along way off from it being complete but thats part of why im here,
i know what im looking to do, and im still doing tests, my circuit is by no means perfect,
when i say images, im talking jpeg.
and when i say match i mean match the childs heartbeat to the heart beat of a child whom has a heart attack,
i know what i am doing is not easy to do, far from it, and it will take alot of hard work,
which  i dont mind, all i want to do is give something back to children,
the idea of this is to be able to try and prevent infants dying via heart attack

[fcb]

I'm also going to agree with all the posters to this topic.

It seems to me that you don't know what you don't actually know, and that your going to hit a hard stop with your project. Now I'm not trying to be rude or put you off electronics/embedded systems.

If you have a novel sensor, then I suggest you pursue that rather than an end product. You are far more likely to achieve your goal of giving back than trying to develop a complex and very heavily regulated product that you are proposing.

[tggzzz]

the idea of this is to be able to try and prevent infants dying via heart attack

Do you understand that your device might cause a death?

How? By failing to diagnose a problem so the infant isn't seen by a medic.

[warner]

yes im aware of the possible impact,
the idea of the machine is to try get the child to the hospital quicker,
and once i have managed to develop it, i want doctors and cardiologists, to help me so this does not cause any damage or deaths, that is why im here,
i do enjoy constructive criticism, but all people seem to want to do, is advice me to stay clear of this field,
and grated im only ONC qualified, but i am trying, i have several projects on the go, but this one is important to me.
im not prefect, and i am still learning, i know what the aim of the project is, im usually a highly quiet person, and low on confidence but i get up everyday, and work it on.
But now i know i need help with this, in order for me to progress and for it not to cause any harm.

i have got a basic circuit working, but i dont know a great deal about micro controllers, but im getting there slowly.
for the sensors, im looking to make some embedded into a sheet for eg, although, i do have a proper pair of ecg leads for testing.



 

[dannyf]

A few things to consider.

First, sensors. If it is contactless, you may be able to sense heart beats only. No ecg. You can do a lot with just heartbeat but far less so than ecg.

If you can get ecg type charts, you need to be able to detect patterns and match them. Not easy.

You also need some capability to update the pattern database.

Not to mention all the regulations and legal stuff.

Doable if you set goals commensurate with your skills.

[warner]

thanks dannyF, and yes i know you are all correct,
and i do agree,
firstly for sensors, the main reason for me wanting to make this contact less is because although infants an be still when they sleep but the rest of the time, they move, like all living organisms,
yes the database would need to be update able,
and surrounded by laws and legal stuff, but right now my aim is to make it work then see professionals, for help and advice.
i know i am a few years off this even being completed yet, but i believe its worth while

[AndreasF]

Let's go back to your original question and forget about the higher level purpose and the whole regulatory issues surrounding medical devices.

You said, that ...

...im wanting to either store scans of ecg readings or capture ecg reading to be able to use them as a matching system. ...

and your topic title is "Pictures within microcontrollers" (and later you mention jpg format). Here is already the first clue that maybe you're thinking about this whole problem in the wrong way. Why? Because it's completely nonsensical to store ECG recordings as images. Just because we visualize them as graphs/images doesn't mean they should be stored in this way, and certainly not in a highly resource constrained device like a microcontroller. ECG recordings are one-dimensional vectors/arrays, i.e. a series of values, sampled at regular time intervals from some sort of sensor (array). Those can theoretically be stored in any microcontroller, though you will very quickly run into RAM limitations for some of them. In other words, the simple task of storing ECG recordings "within microcontrollers" is at least in principle a trivial issue.

Instead of building a full device from scratch, why don't you research what devices are already out there for this type of application, learn how exactly they work, and then identify how they can be improved? That way you would still make a difference but wouldn't waste your time working towards a solution that is bound to fail, and can tailor your efforts to your strengths.

[dannyf]

Even a cordless hear rate monitor can be quite helpful for infants.

[Wilksey]

It's a bit harsh to say the machine he wants to make might cause death!

I would look at it a positive way i.e. a child has 80% chance more of being diagnosed than before, but it's not a pace maker, just a ECG effectively from my understanding, so it won't CAUSE death.

If it doesn't pick up one then that is unfortunate, but you shouldn't rely on the machine alone, and it's not fair to blame the maker of the machine, it's not a life support machine.

I think it's a good idea, as long as you use it within it's safety and operating limits, bit like a sat nav, use it 80 - 90% of the time as it does get it right (these days), the remainder is down to other devices or knowledge, i.e. signs to look for.

As long as the operational limits are understood then it will be a good tool.

It might be that it picks up the issue and theres nothing that can be done even, but even if it helps to save just 1% more of sick infants, surely that alone is enough to warrant it's existence?

I think it's a good idea and you should continue to develop it.

[tggzzz]

right now my aim is to make it work then see professionals, for help and advice.

Do it in that order and you may spend a few years of your life developing something nobody wants.

I suggest you might like to make a "napkin prototype" and show it to professionals. A napkin prototype is something that is drawn on the back of a napkin in sufficient detail that the overall objectives, inputs, outputs and algorithms can be understood and believed - but there is zero implementation. If you can't do that then you don't understand your problem well enough to start implementation.

Fail early, fail fast, if necessary move onto the next thing.

[tggzzz]

It's a bit harsh to say the machine he wants to make might cause death!

Harsh, but accurate - and I even gave the scenario.

As for your other points: good luck arguing those points in court against a well-prepared lawyer.

I would look at it a positive way i.e. a child has 80% chance more of being diagnosed than before, but it's not a pace maker, just a ECG effectively from my understanding, so it won't CAUSE death.

If it doesn't pick up one then that is unfortunate, but you shouldn't rely on the machine alone, and it's not fair to blame the maker of the machine, it's not a life support machine.

I think it's a good idea, as long as you use it within it's safety and operating limits, bit like a sat nav, use it 80 - 90% of the time as it does get it right (these days), the remainder is down to other devices or knowledge, i.e. signs to look for.

As long as the operational limits are understood then it will be a good tool.

It might be that it picks up the issue and theres nothing that can be done even, but even if it helps to save just 1% more of sick infants, surely that alone is enough to warrant it's existence?

I think it's a good idea and you should continue to develop it.

[warner]

ok i can completely see what you are saying, i have already done research on this, seen what devices are out there,
i completed this as a college assignment, and got a merit for it,
I understand how a ECG machine works, i know there are many different types.
i have already built a WORKING ecg circuit, i bought my oscilloscope just to be able to test the circuit out, and it does pick up my heart beat,
The reason for my question is im trying to find a way to compare the ECG readout whether it be graph mathematics algorithms, and when i say compare i mean the heart reading of a person having a heart attack to the person who is actually using it.
Now i have tested it on myself but i dont have any heart conditions so a little hard to test, and im not willing to put anyone else in danger, so i will only test it on me.
the only reason i have build this device from scratch was to complete my college project, and now i want to improve on the circuit by adding a micro-controller, and then program it.
Im trying to find what would be the best micro-controller  for this project.
As i have said i have spend about 1 and  a half years researching, going through datasheets, making up schematics, and doing reports, how to's guides, and learning as much as im able to able how it works, and the best method detecting the heart.

That i am aware, you cant upload pictures to a micro controller, what im looking for is a method or way that i can cross examine or compare to heart readings or the sinusoidal wave of their beating hearts, one being from a live feed, one for a algorithm, or database, but getting the micro controller to be able to do the processing ,

it does not bother me what mcu i use.

I am open to ideas, an i enjoy all constructive criticism, i am not rich, but do have what i think to be a decent selection of components both passive and active, limited range of mcu's,
i would not mind buying a ecg to play around with, test etc, but as i still have my college project built and working, i am playing round with that for now, at least until im able to buy or someone suggests a better idea or method.
Im no expert but if i just stop because everyone tells me its too hard, or its really complex, then i will never get anywhere in life, and this is something i love doing, it makes me want to wake up everyday.
 

[warner]

Ok correct me if im wrong here, but im not creating something that intends to hurt babies infants etc, the idea is to be able to detect heart conditions before they arise at the end of the day an infant cannot talk, cant say im in pain, or my heart is going really fast, and the majority of early parents usually panic when and if they knwo there child is in pain,
the idea if this is to be able to tell the parents to get there child to a hospital, to be able to give them the precious minutes which could save that child's like, and yes fair enough no one might watn it, but i know when i had my first child, and if she had a heart condition, i would want a working device like this that tells me when my child is having a heart problem.
Im not doing this to make money , im doing doing because i want to help give infants a voice, to be able to possibly save a few lifes, for ME thats worth spending 25 years developing something that will in advanced tell me when my child is going to have heart problems, being able to reduce the number of deaths within infants i believe to be highly important.
Im looking for help to choose the right mcu, because i dont know enough about mcu's to be able to choose one.

Btw thank you for your polite comment Wilksey

[tggzzz]

Im no expert but if i just stop because everyone tells me its too hard, or its really complex, then i will never get anywhere in life, and this is something i love doing, it makes me want to wake up everyday.

True, and that's why people are giving you hints about how to succeed.

But, as some Nobel laureate or other put it, "the trick is to pick problems that are hard but soluble within a reasonable time"

[tggzzz]

im not creating something that intends to hurt babies infants etc,

Im not doing this to make money

While true, in plausible worst-case scenarios those points are irrelevant.

[warner]

thanks tggzzz,
and i do agree, but you also need to be passionate about it.