Qualcomm acquires Arduino

[Howardlong]

The PIC ISA originated 50 years ago, in 1975, and in 1976 the PIC1650

Yes, my first MPU was a GI LP8000 and then the CP1600, so I’m well-aware as PICs were also GI and marketed with these.

Baseline and mid-range (non-enhanced) are probably still 60%+ of 8 bit PIC revenue.

I’ll take that stat from the “random stuff I made up” department ;-)

[bson]

There are some tiny LISP implementations.
Probably not great for the tiny microcontrollers, since AFAIK LISP would tend to be RAM and Pointer intensive.

I've often wanted a small scheme interpreter that can run out of SoC flash.  Scheme is pretty much the same as lisp, but does away with the cons cell.  Even a 6502 could run it, although it would probably be a huge pain to implement on a PIC, not to mention grossly inefficient.

[brucehoult]

I've often wanted a small scheme interpreter that can run out of SoC flash.

I'm sure they exist, but anyway, easy to whip one up.

Scheme is pretty much the same as lisp, but does away with the cons cell.

That's not at all the case. "pair" is a fundamental data type (as are vector and string) and cons/car/cdr fundamental functions in any version of Scheme from 1975 to today's R7RS Small. The primary differences between Lisp and Scheme are Scheme's use of a single namespace and lexical binding vs Lisp's separate namespace for functions and dynamic scoping. Common Lisp (which came a decade after Scheme) made lexical scoping the default.

It is certainly true that much idiomatic Scheme does not make much if any use of cons cells -- and is largely equivalent to C with added GC -- but they are still always there.

There are also other things such as guaranteed tail-call optimisation, call/cc, delay/force, exceptions.

Even a 6502 could run it

Of course. A 6502 is a powerful CPU that can run anything that can fit into 64k. As an 8 bit CPU it has to handle pointers and integers in chunks, but that's true of any 8 bit CPU.

Code: [Select]

car:
    sta tmpl
    stx tmph
    ldy #1
    lda (tmpl),y
    tax
    dey
    lda (tmpl),y
    rts

cdr: ; jsr 6
    sta tmpl ;3
    stx tmph ;3
    ldy #3 ;2
    lda (tmpl),y ;5
    tax ;2
    dey ;2
    lda (tmpl),y ;5
    rts ;6 tot = 34

I guess on Z80 you'd do something like:

Code: [Select]

cdr: ; call 17
    inc hl ;11
    inc hl ;11
    ld e,(hl) ;7
    inc hl ;11
    ld d,(hl) ;7
    ex de,hl ; 4
    ret ;10 tot = 77

The z80 code is shorter at 7 bytes (5 for car) vs 13 bytes, but as is common, twice as many cycles at 77 (55 for car) vs 34.

[tooki]

The hardware does not matter that much, most Arduino users used clones anyway. The value of Arduino is in the IDE, which is far easier to abandon and random shops in China are not going to pick up slack here.

I disagree, sorta:
The true value of the Arduino platform is the ecosystem: the gazillions of users, third-party libraries, hardware, and projects built around the Arduino framework (the lightweight middleware that makes Arduino largely portable across hardware architectures).

The IDE is almost irrelevant; the actual Arduino IDE is fantastic for beginners because the barriers to entry are so low. You install it and it just works. Practically everything else requires more knowledge to set up than a true beginner has.

Then, as one gets proficient and starts to outgrow the Arduino IDE, one can switch to an alternative IDE like PlatformIO, VisualCode, etc. while continuing to use the Arduino framework.

[Siwastaja]

The true value of the Arduino platform is the ecosystem: the gazillions of users, third-party libraries, hardware, and projects built around the Arduino framework (the lightweight middleware that makes Arduino largely portable across hardware architectures).

Yes, the value is completely in the add-on modules ("shields") and their libraries. And as 99% of them are third-party, Arduino the company also has no control over them.

[Georgy.Moshkin]

Could it become an AI-based service with no access to source code? More like a node editor with a much larger audience.

[Siwastaja]

Could it become an AI-based service with no access to source code? More like a node editor with a much larger audience.

Well, average complexity (so pretty simple) Arduino hobby project can already be "vibe coded" with any popular LLM, and many do that already, so why not. All that is needed is to integrate the LLM prompt screen into the "IDE", maybe even hiding the actual code being generated, decorate it with company logos etc., and it might even get popular, given that it works well enough for the average case and "feels good" to users (i.e., is marketed well).

"Much larger" audience would be ambitious; Arduino is super popular already. There is a limit to number of people that be made interested in blinking leds with a microcontroller dev board, and Arduino already managed to push that limit.

[oPossum]

Some comments from Phil Torrone of Adafruit:

https://x.com/ptorrone/status/1990833856182653171

qualcomm arduino just pushed a privacy policy and terms qualcomm-rewrite TODAY that reads like someone swapped the bootloader with spyware. i use less water than an llm, but dear reader, we’re all going to need a long shower.

outrage summary
fully irrevocable license to all user content
surveillance-grade ai monitoring baked into “improvements”
patent-infringement shield clause turning your uploads into liability padding
deletion that’s not deletion
minors’ data fused into qualcomm’s ecosystem
geolocation, identifiers, and analytics data sold or shared
five-year public retention of your username
broad military/government carve-outs, bans, and exceptions
termination triggers for trivialities (credential sharing, username quirks)
cross-border data extraction to qualcomm subsidiaries

and don’t forget:
8.2 user shall not translate, decompile, or reverse-engineer the platform, or engage in any attempt to uncover its internal algorithms or logic unless explicitly permitted by arduino or existing licenses

because nothing says “open-source heritage” like a clause threatening anyone who tries to understand how the machine they paid for actually works.

arduino didn’t update their terms. arduino reflashed itself into a surveillance appliance with proprietary firmware and told everyone to smile Q.

look for yourself
https://arduino.cc/en/privacy-policy/

https://arduino.cc/en/terms-conditions/

[ataradov]

Not really unexpected. This is what big corporations do. Even if engineers sincerely did not want to do this, it does not matter. As soon as legal gets involved, they trump anyone.

[langwadt]

Not really unexpected. This is what big corporations do. Even if engineers sincerely did not want to do this, it does not matter. As soon as legal gets involved, they trump anyone.

they have to justify their existance

[ataradov]

In some way they are not wrong. Big companies do not become big by being pushed over on legal matters. Their goal is to make sure they have a defense in as many legal cases as possible.

But this also prevents them from being good for hobby communities. This is just life, not much you can do. If you rely on Arduino in any way, it is better to consider your exist strategy fast.

[Nominal Animal]

The terms and conditions are in conflict with the Arduino IDE license, at least regarding patent licenses (one say no license is conveyed or implied, the other explicitly says one is provided), possibly also regarding export and trade control restrictions (see FSF: Protecting free software against confusing additional restrictions) involving GPL/AGPL source code they do not own the copyrights to.

Messy, very messy.  Not a good move from Qualcomm's lawyers, long-term.

[johnboxall]

Might be time for me to download and save a copy of the classic Arduino IDE, and store it with that last version of EAGLE that doesn't phone home. Feels like Quarduino might pull the ladder up on that one as well in the future.

[westfw]

five-year public retention of your username

There was a big discussion about that in the forums, because they were going to "anonymize" forum posts after a relatively short interval of non-participation (1y?), and a bunch of the "old farts" were like "hey, if I die tomorrow, I don't want my contributions to become unrecognizable quite so quickly!"

https://forum.arduino.cc/t/why-did-i-receive-this-inactive-account-deletion-email/1267927/304
So they needed to say something explicit about policy in this area.

[madires]

In some way they are not wrong. Big companies do not become big by being pushed over on legal matters. Their goal is to make sure they have a defense in as many legal cases as possible.

But this also prevents them from being good for hobby communities. This is just life, not much you can do. If you rely on Arduino in any way, it is better to consider your exist strategy fast.

Yep, a large part of the legal gobbledygook is because of laws, regulations, compliance and liabilities.

[langwadt]

In some way they are not wrong. Big companies do not become big by being pushed over on legal matters. Their goal is to make sure they have a defense in as many legal cases as possible.

yeh sorta self feeding system of MAD between big companies that is also a nice to have hammer against small companies

[paulca]

Not so far down the line AI or at least AI agents will be coming to every embedded device sold to you.  This is what Qualcomm are betting on.  Having a platform from which to rapidly launch embedded AI boards to manufacturers would be handy maybe, I don't know.

Either that or they are:
a) buying it because someone else was going to and they didn't like that.
b) they want the community for something, possibly to do the leg work on the innovation of such devices
c) they want to attack microchip somehow

[tooki]

Some comments from Phil Torrone of Adafruit:

https://x.com/ptorrone/status/1990833856182653171

qualcomm arduino just pushed a privacy policy and terms qualcomm-rewrite TODAY that reads like someone swapped the bootloader with spyware. i use less water than an llm, but dear reader, we’re all going to need a long shower.

outrage summary
fully irrevocable license to all user content
surveillance-grade ai monitoring baked into “improvements”
patent-infringement shield clause turning your uploads into liability padding
deletion that’s not deletion
minors’ data fused into qualcomm’s ecosystem
geolocation, identifiers, and analytics data sold or shared
five-year public retention of your username
broad military/government carve-outs, bans, and exceptions
termination triggers for trivialities (credential sharing, username quirks)
cross-border data extraction to qualcomm subsidiaries

and don’t forget:
8.2 user shall not translate, decompile, or reverse-engineer the platform, or engage in any attempt to uncover its internal algorithms or logic unless explicitly permitted by arduino or existing licenses

because nothing says “open-source heritage” like a clause threatening anyone who tries to understand how the machine they paid for actually works.

arduino didn’t update their terms. arduino reflashed itself into a surveillance appliance with proprietary firmware and told everyone to smile Q.

look for yourself
https://arduino.cc/en/privacy-policy/

https://arduino.cc/en/terms-conditions/

I think that’s outrage bait, nothing more.

I don’t interpret any of that to have anything to do with the actual Arduino products. It’s all about the website and other online services, and in that context it’s a completely typical T&C. It doesn’t supersede the licensing of the OSS codebase.

[eTobey]

...
b) they want the community for something, possibly to do the leg work on the innovation of such devices
...

I have a few ideas:
They create HW, and let users test it. Nothing better than someone giving you money while also doing the work. Wouldnt be the first company, doing this.

Train the AI with code of the users.

[eugene]

Here's Adafruit's take:

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/adafruit_opensource-privacy-techpolicy-activity-7396903362237054976-r14H/

[RoGeorge]

Seems like all the worries (about what Arduino Q might do the wrong way) were justified:

Why I Threw Away the Arduino Q
Paul McWhorter

[brucehoult]

He's dead right about why we love Arduino.

And Teensy ... I was running blinky on a Teensy 4 within two or three minutes of opening the box.

My first RISC-V board, the HiFive1 came in Uno form-factor and could use either a command line SDK/BSP or simply open Arduino 1.8 IDE and paste the URL for the HiFive1 support package (riscv-gnu-toolchain, openocd).

CH32V003 (and their bigger chips) with CH32Fun is great too, and provides both direct hardware register access and simple Arduino-style definitions for GPIO, sleep(), and automatically hooks up printf() to your choice of SWD debugging or UART (via one simple #define).

Pi Pico is easy to get started with too, though not quite Arduino-easy.

[fourfathom]

Pi Pico is easy to get started with too, though not quite Arduino-easy.

I had some Pi Pico-2 boards lying around for a few months (how could I *not* buy them at $4 each???) and this week I finally tried using one in a project.  I went with the Arduino IDE and starting from scratch had "hello world" and blinking LED in less than a half hour of setup.  Inside of two hours I had it playing converted .wav files using the PWM output.  I was writing in "C".

Easy enough and quite impressive.  Now $5 ea at Digikey.  I bought some more.

My first micro was a 6502 development board (although as a technician I did wire-wrap a 6800 controller system prototype).

[brucehoult]

"hello world" and blinking LED in less than a half hour of setup.  Inside of two hours I had it playing converted .wav files using the PWM output.  I was writing in "C".

A great thing about using C on the Pico 2 is that you can convert between the Arm cores and the RISC-V cores just by clicking one checkbox.

The only difference significant enough to be noticeable is that the RISC-V cores (as with the Arm Cortex-M0 cores in the original Pico) don't have an FPU, while the Cortex M-33 cores in the Pico 2 have single precision hardware floating point. Not that you need to know that either, as the compiler deals with soft float (including for double precision on the Pico 2) vs hardware float for you.

My first micro was a 6502 development board (although as a technician I did wire-wrap a 6800 controller system prototype).

6502 in the Apple ][+ was the first non-calculator I programmed. I was already familiar with TI 57/58/59 and HP 67/97 which are essentially an assembly language, and all except the TI-57 have indirect addressing, so that concept on the 6502 was easy enough.

At uni I did asm on the PDP-11/34, but that was inaccessible. The 2nd year hardware lab used Rockwell AIM65 (6502) boards and we used GPIOs on those.

I wire-wrapped a 6809 board.

[paulca]

Pi Pico is easy to get started with too, though not quite Arduino-easy.

I bought a RP2350 dev board to get access to some riscV cores to learn a bit of RiscV asm.

To do that however you needed to cross compile through the RPi SDK, which when built takes up 2.5Gb of disk space.  All to run a 5 line assembler hello world.

Would you recommend a better option if my first goal is to create risc-v-play.s in the build chain and learn some riscv asm?