is using thermal camera for repair cheating ?

[oz2cpu]

I do this all the time :-) it almost feel like cheating,
it is that fast and easy, you dont need schematics,
see my latest video about fault tracing using thermal cam

https://youtu.be/Ej0qE4V-SyU

[coromonadalix]

No  you use all the tools available 

[wasedadoc]

No it is not cheating but posting here to drive up viewer numbers on your youtube channel might be considered as "sneaky". 

[oz2cpu]

i had the idea you would ask if i am related to HTI
but i am not, also i can reveal you can even get cell phones with thermal cam now a days,
so it is a cool tool of the future, and for lasy EE folks who love to get a problem solved fast and easy, almost too easy

[tooki]

I do this all the time :-) it almost feel like cheating,
it is that fast and easy, you dont need schematics,
see my latest video about fault tracing using thermal cam

https://youtu.be/Ej0qE4V-SyU

If a headline is a question, the answer is “no”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines

(And it likely qualifies as clickbait.)

[oz2cpu]

now you clickbated me :-)
I fell for it, read it, and still dont understand what the point is,

I hope you at least fell a bit better by the post i made,
since its intention was to help you, save your time

[MikeK]

Is using an automotive scan tool cheating for a car problem?  Similar thing, and certainly not cheating.

[CatalinaWOW]

i had the idea you would ask if i am related to HTI
but i am not, also i can reveal you can even get cell phones with thermal cam now a days,
so it is a cool tool of the future, and for lasy EE folks who love to get a problem solved fast and easy, almost too easy

Thanks for  the revelation.

Now I can also reveal to you that there is a thread on this very forum discussing these products and methods.  And as a special deal, for you only, I will reveal the exact URL

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/

[Martin72]

At work we use a thermal cam for failure analyzis since 2006(Flir Infracam and since this year a new model).
When testing PCBs with current regulated psu´s and after switching on, the current reach it´s limit - A quick look with the cam and you can spot the defective part inbetween seconds without damaging more by too long too much current flowing.
Or a short circuit between two or more different potentials, like shorted pads due too much solder.
Raise the current to several amperes, follow with the cam the heating (very low in compare to ambient temp, but visible) layout until it "stops" - there you got the shorted pads.
And so on...
But for best performance you will need a cam with manual focus and a focussing distance at least 10cm or shorter.
The whole fixed focus things you can forget when it´s going into details.
Standalone from HTI or Seek Thermal or the cheaper ones from Flir or cams for smartphones... I got several ones, you can forget it at the end.

[Hamelec]

did you have a recommendation for a cam with manual focus and a focussing distance at least 10cm or shorter which is affordable for personal use?

[Greybeard]

is using thermal camera for repair cheating ?

I do this all the time :-) it almost feel like cheating,

If you use your thermal camera, find the problem in 4 minutes but charge your customer 4 hours for trouble shooting, that's cheating... 

[oz2cpu]

>If you use your thermal camera, find the problem in 4 minutes but charge your customer 4 hours for trouble shooting, that's cheating... 

I would never do that, I prefer them to be happy it was that fast and cheap
this way they tell their friends, and come back,

>did you have a recommendation for a cam with manual focus and a focussing distance at least 10cm or shorter which is affordable for personal use?

Manual focus thermal cams are absolutly fantastic, we have one at my previous job
BUT they are just way out of access to hobby / home labs
that is why I "upgraded" mine with a DIY selectable macro using a cheap laser lens,
i shared pictures and all info about it here :
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4964427
I think the 3D printed parts and the glue on methode, will most likely also work on other brands

>But for best performance you will need a cam with manual focus and a focussing distance at least 10cm or shorter.

exactly, looks like most thermal cams with fixed focus are made for house / car and such usage
that means many meters and up focus. That is why i made the cheap macro lens add on
I am not an optical expert so i think i was lucky to pick the right lens, since the practical usage range almost hit the same distance,
I did not want overlab, but an extra SMD and small parts focus

>Now I can also reveal to you that there is a thread on this very forum discussing these products and methods.
> And as a special deal, for you only, I will reveal the exact URL

Thanks a lot, I love direct links, makes my life easier and faster

[Mechatrommer]

...also i can reveal you can even get cell phones with thermal cam now a days,
so it is a cool tool of the future, and for lasy EE folks who love to get a problem solved fast and easy, almost too easy

Manual focus thermal cams are absolutly fantastic, we have one at my previous job
BUT they are just way out of access to hobby / home labs

let me make another revelation for you... i own Seek Thermal Compact for android for 4 years now. and it has manual focus from Inf to 1cm if you like, no need to print anything to put macro lens on. and its very hobbiest affordable, i was lucky i got it for about $250, today is seems more expensive. i only 3d print enclosure for it so its handheld friendly on my samsung smartphone dedicated for it... btw if using thermal imager is cheating, using dso or dmm is also cheating, the only not cheating is using brainwave....

[oz2cpu]

Mechatrommer
that is actually a neat solution, I have seem the tiny addons for phones before,
but their cost is relative high, and the hardware and software kind of lock together with a phone,
made me felll like it was a short lived thing,
you know phones and opperating systems, software compabilities and such,
i rather go for a standalone unint.
The only thing i think is bad, about my HTI is its integrated battery,
it would have been a perfect product, if it used 2-4 regular AA cells, now i would feel i got a unit that will work forever

[Paceguy]

I use a Fluke IR Thermometer to check the temp on some components from time to time. I use to use my finger but it's not as accurate lol.

[langwadt]

I use a Fluke IR Thermometer to check the temp on some components from time to time. I use to use my finger but it's not as accurate lol.

I think it was Louis Rossmann that showed doing it by pouring alcohol on the PCB and watching where it first evaporates

[oz2cpu]

>pouring alcohol on the PCB and watching where it first evaporates
I like the idea, but alcohol can burn, and ignite quite well
and we allready know we are working on a defective board, with parts that will most likely get hot or even too hot,
it sounds like a bad ide.

the finger methode is quite good, but it assume all voltages are low and safe,
and it also assube the temperature rise is quite high

again today i try to repair some stuff, this time a 300W hifi amplifier
mains voltage and nasty stuff alll over, again using my thermal cam,
allready found a tiny rectifier bridge that gets very hot, while all other parts in that area is cold.

[tooki]

>pouring alcohol on the PCB and watching where it first evaporates
I like the idea, but alcohol can burn, and ignite quite well
and we allready know we are working on a defective board, with parts that will most likely get hot or even too hot,
it sounds like a bad ide.

The auto-ignition temperature of IPA is 399°C. If any component has gotten that hot, you won’t need IPA to figure it out. The smoke coming from the burning, charred PCB substrate will already tell you where that fault is!

[oz2cpu]

thanks tooki, that of course help a lot. but a tiny spark ?
how often do we see sparks ? not that often.

one more detail to mention, about using thermal camera for error finding.
IF anything on your supply rail, is shorted, i mean really close to zero ohms,
then that part will not be visible on thermal !!
I had that happen yesterday, shorted capacitors, makes the bridge rectifier very visible on the cam,
normally i would say: caps dont short to zero ohms (but it just happened to me)

[oz2cpu]

HERE is a new and wierd input to argument, lets use a thermal camera more often..

some days ago i inspected a 1kW power supply, that was tested and found working
with thermal camara, and to my big surprice i found a leaky capacitor that was running burning hot !

if i did not inspect, i would not have found this, it could potentially have killed a lot more in this quite expensive unit

here is the click bait video about that : https://youtu.be/yJKZp5DV1JY

so the recommendation is : also use a thermal cam on stuff you expect to be ok..

[Martin72]

We can´t live without a thermal cam anymore...

Recent example,
A 10kW plug-in unit (400hz inverter), output filter integrated in the housing.
During the visual inspection, it seemed to us that too much thermal paste was used for the IGBTs.
But it is very complicated to remove the IGBTs, so we decided to thermally inspect the junctions to the heat sink with the camera, when the plug-in unit is tested under load.
Everything was fine in that area, but....
The filter chokes in the output got different temperatures, two were very hot compared to the rest.
The solution was that the core material was bad.
We would have missed that otherwise...

[oz2cpu]

exactly Martin, i did it again :-)
just scored super cheap a really cool defective,
4ch HP scope 50MHz old stuff with analog screen storage,
but i really liked its design, so I gave it a go,
look how easy it was to fix using the thermal cam methode
makes me smile all day :

https://youtu.be/9bnTugghVzY

[artag]

If you use your thermal camera, find the problem in 4 minutes but charge your customer 4 hours for trouble shooting, that's cheating... 

Not sure I agree with that. Somebody has to pay for the thermal camera. If all it does is reduce your chargeable time, how does that help ?
If your competitor doesn't have a thermal camera and takes 4 hours, is that OK too ?

I would say that you should charge in a way that's related to your costs, but that's investment in equipment (and education) as well as time.


I do agree though, that no faultfinding method that actually finds the fault (rather than hiding it) is cheating. That implies a type of competition against an absolute standard that isn't involved here.

[artag]

I use a Fluke IR Thermometer to check the temp on some components from time to time. I use to use my finger but it's not as accurate lol.

I also use one of those (though its not a fluke). The problem I have with it is that although it shows the target up with a laser, the actual area it's averaging over is very much larger so the hotspot itself doesn't show so well. Maybe your Fluke has a smaller focus ? Or your targets larger ?

[TomKatt]

Do not underestimate the skill required to use any tool successfully - which can often mean cleverly.

Knowing how to use a thermal camera, what temperatures indicate trouble and knowing where to inject voltages and how much current is safe etc are skills.  Skills are not 'cheating'.

[Haenk]

Not sure I agree with that. Somebody has to pay for the thermal camera. If all it does is reduce your chargeable time, how does that help ?

I'd say it's a sign of being a Pro. And it does raise the success rate of a repair. Using 3 hours of time to pointlessly replace components and not fix it versus 30 minutes of time, replace what is broken and fix the item - I wonder which of the two repair shops the customer will use in the future, which means future business...
And I'd just say: Don't save on your tools, that's (besides parts) the worst area to save money.

[Kjelt]

I remember in the 80s tv repairshop they use cold spray or freeze spray on the components that were generating intermittent faults.
The fun part was that freezing it sometimes made it work again so you knew what the cause was.
With "dead" power components the spray would not evaporate so you knew that was the issue.
So a thermal cam is just another tool on your belt but I don't think it is the holy grail.

What stands out for me is that seeing all those computer laptop repair videos the powermosfets are 80% of the cause. And many are not even two years old. Is that bad thermal design, bad pcb design, underrated fets? It really look symptomatic for todays products.

[Martin72]

So a thermal cam is just another tool on your belt but I don't think it is the holy grail.

But it´s very close...

[Simon]

>If you use your thermal camera, find the problem in 4 minutes but charge your customer 4 hours for trouble shooting, that's cheating... 

The way repairers usually work is a pretty fixed fee, be it a 4 minute repair or a 4 hour repair. If they charged the actual time some would be very expensive repairs and others not worth the payment fees.