Author Topic: GCC got its Code of Conduct too!  (Read 11552 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline DiTBho

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5098
  • Country: gb
Re: GCC got its Code of Conduct too!
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2023, 11:14:46 pm »
we need to just treat each thread as a new start from blank state, and observe how it goes.

In my opinion, when things don't go with a forum topic, it's not worth with to spend more time.
There are other better occasions, better devote time to other things in the meantime.

The opposite of courage is not cowardice, it is conformity. Even a dead fish can go with the flow
 

Offline sokoloff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1803
  • Country: us
Re: GCC got its Code of Conduct too!
« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2023, 04:42:04 pm »
Are we worried about the fact of there being a code of conduct at all? Or about the contents of it?

If it's the former, I have some bad news to share: EEVBlog forum has the equivalent already. It hasn't resulted in the destruction of civilization yet, I think because of sensible content and sensible enforcement.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/forum-rules-please-read/
 
The following users thanked this post: gmb42, newbrain

Offline Nominal Animal

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8349
  • Country: fi
    • My home page and email address
Re: GCC got its Code of Conduct too!
« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2023, 12:13:21 pm »
Are we worried about the fact of there being a code of conduct at all? Or about the contents of it?
If you had read the previous posts, you'd know it is the latter.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2023, 06:20:59 pm by Nominal Animal »
 

Offline dferyance

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 225
Re: GCC got its Code of Conduct too!
« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2023, 06:08:19 pm »
I get the strong sense that whoever authored that code of conduct has never actually met someone from a different background. It is remarkable how a document that purports to be welcoming can be written in such a way to be exclusive. Some of it seems reasonable but it is intermixed with unnecessary language. I think if it was slimmed down to just the welcoming, tolerant and kind message, it would be fine.

Just the responses on this forum shows how this code of conduct makes people feel. It is written in a divisive manner.

I looked at the debian code of conduct mentioned earlier in this topic, seems pretty reasonable to me.
 
The following users thanked this post: Siwastaja, MK14

Offline T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 22435
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: GCC got its Code of Conduct too!
« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2023, 10:39:01 pm »
Are we worried about the fact of there being a code of conduct at all? Or about the contents of it?
If you had read the previous posts, you'd know it is the latter.

We must not let hateful facts ruin a nice narrative, eh?  :palm:

Well, your previous posts; I can't say the same for the earliest posts in this thread.  Hence my seemingly knee-jerk reaction, at least.

The conservative / RWA / various other aspects -- whatever you want to call it -- the mindset reacts to the existence of rules on principle, since, that's it, that's the name, to "conserve" existing values whatever those might be, regardless whether they're understood to any degree, or proven to be good or bad; the strategy is to resist change on the assumption that it's "always" for the worse.  It's a victimized mindset: "I've altered the rules, pray I don't alter them further" -- what could be more chilling?  But in particular, that this reaction is the complete reaction; not only is there no effort to understand what the changes might mean, but there is an active rejection to understand those rules.  This plays out at-large in, you know, about half of US politics at the moment, but it's based on an individual response, personality type, and is psychological rather than political in nature.  The politics is the consequence of the existence of this psychology.

Whereas, given a deeper understanding of the political process (in the abstract -- of the group, the organization of the project), what's relevant is not some random text, or even a code of rules per se, but the process of determining and adjudicating them.  That is, how many people are involved relative to those in the overall project, how closely they are involved, and how much influence they have on it.  Words don't matter, it's what people do with them that matters.  A project ruled by one or few iron-fisted leaders will likely take a strong authoritarian position, while one driven by frequent discussions and polls will likely take a democratic position.  Neither of which is necessarily a problem -- at least for project-scale groups like these, it's possible to have the "enlightened, benevolent dictator" type, with a more strict hierarchical structure that reduces management burden on others.  But it's also very possible to have the opposite case, a manipulating, controlling, gaslighting dictator who allows no questioning of their authority or project vision.  (And, it seems, the latter case is exponentially more likely as scale goes up, hence almost all nation-scale examples, with a few arguable historical exceptions.)

Anyway, that's where that's coming from.  Note I'm not accusing anyone's psychology.  The lack of discussion in the initial responses might be some shared understanding [that I lack], but it seems to fit into the above mold much better (and, at most, hinting at psychology).

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 
The following users thanked this post: newbrain

Offline Ed.Kloonk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4000
  • Country: au
  • Cat video aficionado
Re: GCC got its Code of Conduct too!
« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2023, 11:02:37 pm »
It's not right or left or glass half full or empty, it's right and wrong. And this is so wrong. And been wrong for too long.

I'm a poet and I didn't know it.
iratus parum formica
 

Offline Nominal Animal

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8349
  • Country: fi
    • My home page and email address
Re: GCC got its Code of Conduct too!
« Reply #56 on: June 28, 2023, 09:14:24 am »
Well, your previous posts; I can't say the same for the earliest posts in this thread.
What the hell?

My first post in this thread was reply #31, pointing out the sentence I have a problem with in that CoC, and why.

When prompted by Monkeh, in reply #36, I explained I don't have the language skills to draft a replacement or fix, but described in my own words what I'd like to see as a replacement.

As newbrain accused me (among others) to be more concerned about rules than the abuse of persons, in #43, I pointed out a CoC I like, Debian Code of Conduct:
In summary, with respect to Codes of Conduct, having observed and participated in communities without them for decades, I do believe that the risk of giving additional tools to sociopathic social players is greater than the sum of small squabbles and hurt feelings between ordinary productive members that the CoC can alleviate, because of the wording of these CoCs.

As a comparison, I do not see any similar dangers (as the wording I quoted in in my first post to this thread) in the Debian Code of Conduct.  I like the Debian CoC, and just simply agree with it.  It could be better (but I cannot draft a better one myself), and perhaps it also has such cracks, but I personally don't see any.

And don't laugh! I am fully aware of "4. Try to be concise", and am working on it.  ;)
Take particular note of because of the wording of these CoCs.

Would you mind explaining, T3sl4co1l, how the hell you can read the above, and then start with an accusation about me having a conservative mindset more focused on rules than their effects?

It is the fucking effect of poor wording (with ostensibly good intent) that I am worried about and pointing out!  :horse:

Fuck it, my language skills must be even worse than I thought.  >:(
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 22435
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: GCC got its Code of Conduct too!
« Reply #57 on: June 28, 2023, 04:39:58 pm »
What the hell?

My first post in this thread was reply #31, pointing out the sentence I have a problem with in that CoC, and why.

Yeah, I'm referring to those earlier replies.

Maybe I should've put more separation between my first line, and the rest, sorry.  To be precise: your "previous posts" are "about the contents" (as you said), and my concern was that the earliest replies might not (hence my first reply).  I felt it worth explaining said reply, and went on to do so.

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 
The following users thanked this post: Nominal Animal

Offline scuzzyTerminator

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 66
  • Country: us
Re: GCC got its Code of Conduct too!
« Reply #58 on: June 30, 2023, 09:25:53 pm »
Quote
We always have had laws here about protecting women, even during the communism.

The code is not about protecting women. It is about protecting men disguised as women. Huge difference.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 22435
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: GCC got its Code of Conduct too!
« Reply #59 on: June 30, 2023, 10:01:15 pm »
Quote
We always have had laws here about protecting women, even during the communism.

The code is not about protecting women. It is about protecting men disguised as women. Huge difference.

You can fuck outta here with that trans panic bullshit.

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 
The following users thanked this post: Monkeh, gmb42, newbrain, alm, eugene, abeyer, karpouzi9

Offline Ed.Kloonk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4000
  • Country: au
  • Cat video aficionado
Re: GCC got its Code of Conduct too!
« Reply #60 on: July 01, 2023, 03:49:02 am »
Gee. That escalated quickly. I wonder who it is that is panicking.
iratus parum formica
 
The following users thanked this post: magic

Offline T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 22435
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: GCC got its Code of Conduct too!
« Reply #61 on: July 01, 2023, 04:33:28 am »
Gee. That escalated quickly. I wonder who it is that is panicking.

A robust society cannot tolerate intolerance.  I will not tolerate it in any space I consider myself a part of.

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 
The following users thanked this post: gmb42, newbrain

Offline Ed.Kloonk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4000
  • Country: au
  • Cat video aficionado
Re: GCC got its Code of Conduct too!
« Reply #62 on: July 01, 2023, 04:35:57 am »


A robust society cannot tolerate intolerance.


I want to think about that sentence and help me understand how it possibly makes any sense to you.
iratus parum formica
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 22435
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: GCC got its Code of Conduct too!
« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2023, 04:47:18 am »
It is quite clear by definition; only its phrasing seems paradoxical. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 
The following users thanked this post: Ed.Kloonk, newbrain

Offline DiTBho

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5098
  • Country: gb
Re: GCC got its Code of Conduct too!
« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2023, 08:56:17 am »
only its phrasing seems paradoxical.

"we are all slaves to the rules to be free"  :D
The opposite of courage is not cowardice, it is conformity. Even a dead fish can go with the flow
 
The following users thanked this post: Ed.Kloonk, Nominal Animal


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf

 

-->