Author Topic: CRT pentode video amp  (Read 3525 times)

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Online jmigalTopic starter

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CRT pentode video amp
« on: October 13, 2026, 07:09:22 pm »
Hi all

Im working on a pentode video amp for a CRT, but i've never touched a valve or a video amp before. I'm planning on cascading two gain stages, first one with a gain of 20 and the second with a gain of at best 10 (since i don't know the required output swing for my CRT and measuring it isn't an option). I just got done with the design of the first stage and i could use a second pair of eyes.

For a short description: It's an EF80 pentode with grid rectification for DC restoration (C1 and R1, 50ms time constant), shunt and series peaking for high frequency compensation and an RC network for low frequency compensation (R5 and C3). I first picked RL (based on gain) which came out to 3k, from which i got Ia (about 56mA), followed by the DC load line, Q-point (135V, 11.67mA) and Vg1 (-1.25V).
I picked 170V for the supply and 150V for G2 (R4 and C2).

Bottom line, I've got a couple questions:
1. Is my design even remotely coherent?
2. What's the best way to implement gain control?
3. Does R1 also act as a grid leak resistor? Should i add one? If yes, wouldn't that just be two resistors in parallel?
4. Does G2 also require a capacitor in the nF range on there?
5. How do you actually cascade pentode gain stages? Is it possible to do so without a cathode follower? Id rather not bother with a 3rd tube.

The full math behind behind the design can be found on page 46, please ignore the first 45 pages theyre still a work in progress.
Thank you.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2026, 07:34:31 pm »
R5 seems far too large:  it will starve the plate.
 

Online jmigalTopic starter

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2026, 05:50:42 am »
R5 seems far too large:  it will starve the plate.
Should i increase C3 or decrease the time constant entirely? Thanks
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2026, 02:58:55 pm »

You can’t draw 11.67 mA through 100 k from 170 V.
 

Online jmigalTopic starter

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2026, 03:48:25 pm »
I think i got it.

For the low frequency compensation to work the resistor has to be a sensible value lower than the capacitive reactance of the cap in parallel at the target frequency (right?) to increase gain at lower frequencies by increasing the total resistance on the plate, and as the frequency increases, the capacitive reactance of the cap decreases, forming a path around the resistor over to the plate load resistor.

My main problem is that im not quite sure what to aim for here, is a time constant of one second too much? Or does the value of the capacitive reactance not matter that much since it kind of forms a resistor in parallel? Im a bit lost
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2026, 04:56:41 pm »
Your graphical computation for the DC operating point (plate voltage and current) used the smaller resistor RL = 3 k fed from 170 V.  If you use the load resistance as part of a low-frequency compensation network, then a (huge) capacitor needs to be connected across a fraction of that 3 k (usually from a node to ground).
Inserting an external (huge) resistor in series with RL changes the DC operating point drastically.
 

Online jmigalTopic starter

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2026, 04:08:02 am »
So i should aim for a resistor with a value somewhere around 1-2k? As for the capacitor, is something in the 200-400uF range gonna cause problems or should i cut down on both of these and call it a day? Also, ive seen diagrams showing both the resistor and cap in parallel, and others showing the resistor in series with the plate load resistor and the capacitor wired between their junction and ground, what's the functional difference between these?
Thank you
 

Online jonpaul

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2026, 05:32:50 am »
Video signal is Z axis.

You build a Video Z axis amp or Vertical amp?

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Online jmigalTopic starter

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2026, 12:04:48 pm »
I think that'd be a Z axis amp? I'm not building a vector display if that's what you're referring to, it's a raster display so i've never really bumped into this terminology, for the other two axis i've got the vertical and horizontal deflections (which i've detailed in the doc i attached).
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2026, 02:05:46 pm »
Yes, that’s a “video” amplifier which corresponds to the “z-axis”, i.e. brightness.
What exactly are you trying to accomplish with the low-frequency compensation?
That will determine the plate load circuit.
 

Online jmigalTopic starter

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2026, 02:39:12 pm »
I plan on cascading two gain stages (i haven't figured that part out yet) which i'm guessing will have a coupling capacitor between them, the reactance of which will be a problem at lower frequencies, so i'm trying to figure out starting values for R5 and C3 to flatten out the overall frequency response down to about 10-50Hz. Unfortunately, i cant build a base version of the circuit to see what's actually needed beforehand since i dont have an oscilloscope capable of scoping anything past 500kHz so im doing all the math upfront, my plan is to get every other part of the CRT up and running and tweak the amp based on the quality of the image, but in order to do that i need a variac i dont have to find out the supply voltage for the horizontal deflection and HV supply, so while im saving up i'd like to finish the design of the video amp since there isn't much else left to do anyway.

I also plan on etching my own PCB for the video amp specifically, which doesn't leave room for throwing in anything extra.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2026, 03:45:24 pm »
Capacitor coupling from the first-tube plate to the second-tube grid can easily have good response below 50 Hz, since the grid resistor on the second tube can be high resistance.
A typical spec for maximum grid resistance is 250 k or 500 k for a “video” pentode: consult your data sheet.
-1 dB at 50 Hz implies -3 dB at 25 Hz.  With 250 k, a coupling capacitor of only 25 nF is required, readily available as polyester or polypropylene film.  50 nF and 100 k gives the same result, and the effect on gain with 3 k load on the first plate is negligible.  Increasing C to 500 nF extends that down to -1 dB at 5 Hz.
A slightly more complex network at that location with reasonable values can give a (relative) boost at low frequencies, with a reduction in gain at mid-frequency.
There should be engineering textbooks from, say, 1955 in public libraries that deal with tube video amplifiers, unless radical digital enthusiasts have trashed them.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2026, 03:47:02 pm by TimFox »
 

Online jmigalTopic starter

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2026, 04:02:27 pm »
According to the datasheet, for the EF80, Rg1 can be at best 1M. R1 is at 470k, im tempted to leave that as is and cut C1 down to 25nF. I'm guessing this makes the low frequency compensation pretty much not needed? Other than that does the rest of the whole thing make sense to you?

Also i have been reading. The other parts of the CRT like the deflections and HV supply have felt relatively straightforward, this video amp felt by far the hardest to understand, everything affects everything else like nothing ive ever seen before, the photofact television course (amongst others) is what got me this far.
Thank you.
 

Online jmigalTopic starter

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2026, 08:44:52 am »
I realised you were referring to the inter-stage coupling cap and resistor, but I decided id rather not bother with a second tube at all and picked a pentode with a high gm (the 6J52P, ~55mA/V), after recalculating everything around a gain of 200:
Vcc - 250V
VG2 - 150V
VG1 - 1.4V
Q point - 125V at 27mA
Of course, i am not actually targeting a gain of 200 thats insane, its just that i still havent gotten to the adjustable part of it. Theres new problems however:
1. I realised the DC restoration circuit isn't going to work, grid rectification relies on positive sync pulses, which PAL doesnt do, so i opened up photofact again and decided to go for the DC restoration by self bias since it also adds brightness control, but given this, wont the cap on the input just turn the sync pulses and black/blank levels into a varying voltage riding on the AC signal?
2. Are the values of the RV1 and R2 critical? Photofact doesn't mention much about those.

As for the low frequency compensation, i doubt it will be necessary since i've added a fat cap on the cathode and calculated CG2 based on the cap having a reactance 1/200 that of the screen resistor (both of these based on "Rider - Video Amplifiers"
 

Offline peter-h

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2026, 09:50:44 am »
R3 is probably way too small. I used to build valve radios and valve amps, EF80 ECC83 EL84 all the way to 2x 807 for pirate radios ;)

A valve is like a depletion mode MOSFET, so with grid 1 = cathode it is turned hard ON. The cathode resistor thus has to drop enough volts to make the grid some volts negative relative to the cathode. This scheme avoids having to have a -ve rail for the grid circuit.
Z80 Z180 Z280 Z8 S8 8031 8051 H8/300 H8/500 80x86 90S1200 32F417
 

Online jmigalTopic starter

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2026, 11:25:49 am »
Thanks for the advice!
I got the value from Rk = |Vg1|/Ik, with Ik at around 14.6mA, 82 ohms gives me almost exactly the needed -1.2V for biasing the tube (the EF80).

I actually completely redesigned the amplifier around a different pentode, the 6J52P (soviet equivalent of the E810F) so i can use a single stage instead of cascading two. I upped the supply to 250V, picked a Q point of 125V at 27mA and used a graph from its datasheet for Vg1 (-1.4V). Using the same formula the required resistance is 45 ohms (1.4V/31mA). The maximum gain is about 200, tho im not actually targeting 200, i plan on making the gain adjustable and sweeping upwards from nothing until i find the required output swing of my CRT and leave it at that, i still havent gotten to figuring out how to do that yet.

Another thing its shaky on is the DC restoration, i realised the orignal DC restoration by grid circuit rectification wont work as it requires positive sync pulses, which PAL doesnt do, so i switched over to DC restoration by rectification in the picture tube input circuit (which functions much the same). The problem is, do i keep the coupling cap C1? Wont it just turn the sync and black/blank levels into average voltages riding on the AC signal, leaving nothing for the DC restoration to restore? Can it be directly coupled to the signal source?

Thank you.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2026, 02:37:55 pm »
“DC restoration” is a misnomer:  the diode after the capacitor forces the most negative part of the waveform (sync tip) to zero, or the most positive part to zero with the reversed diode connection.  The choice depends on the video polarity at that node (bright = positive for that connection or bright = negative for the reversed diode).  The capacitor charges to the required voltage that shifts the waveform to achieve that equilibrium state.  The error due to finite diode forward voltage is reduced when the video signal magnitude is higher.  Sync tips are blacker-than-black.
 
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Online jmigalTopic starter

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2026, 02:57:06 pm »
I see now, the DC restoration is just enforcing a fixed starting point for the waveform, not actually restoring anything. Thank you for your help
 

Online jmigalTopic starter

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2026, 05:09:38 am »
Hey, its me again
I'm still having trouble with the DC restoration. I understand the working principle behind it, clamping the waveform to a fixed reference point at a fixed interval often enough that it does something but rare enough that the brightness can change naturally over a couple frames (if the picture demands it) like every 50ms. This is done via a capacitor, diode and resistor. Everytime the signal flips polarity (sync tips), the capacitor gets to charge up to the value of the sync tips. After the signal flips polarity again (picture info), the capacitor begins discharging through the resistor until it gets topped off by the next sync tip, this is assuming polarisation done such that the sync tips get clamped instead of the peak white levels. So far so good (right?)

What I'm having trouble with is the actual implementation from photofact. The grid-cathode of the picture tube is used as the diode here, with the capacitor in series with the cathode and R2 (and the pot) as the resistor it's meant to discharge through. The control grid is wired to ground in this topology, so the now inverted sync tips coming out of the pentode are positive going, making the cathode positive in relation to the control grid, but in order for current to flow from G1 to the cathode, wouldn't G1 need to be positive?

Photofact mentions "The video signal is coupled to the cathode through capacitor C2, and the DC bias, whose peak value is established by the synchronizing pulse tip, is set up across resistor R4". The preceding text in question describes regular diode DC restoration, with the negative sync tips allowing a charge to flow thru the diode charging up the cap, but then he shows us a schematic with this employed on the output side of the tube rather than the input, on a capacitor that couples the signal over to the control grid this time, with the cathode wired to ground. But even that seems to be wired such that it would require negative going sync tips coming out of the pentode. Were these written for a different signal standard with positive going sync tips instead of negative that I'm unaware of? Or am i missing something?

Thanks.
 

Online jonpaul

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2026, 03:18:24 pm »
Read Tektronics circuits concepts book oscilloscope CRT circuits re video/Z-axis and blanking/DC restoration.

https://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/Concepts_Series


j
« Last Edit: October 20, 2026, 08:34:31 am by jonpaul »
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Online jmigalTopic starter

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2026, 03:54:19 pm »
Will do, thanks
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2026, 04:29:27 pm »
 In fig 235, the signal drives the CRT cathode, so negative-going is white and the sync tips (very black) are positive -going.  The target (phosphor) is at a high positive voltage, and the grid is grounded.
The dc levels on the cathode and grid1 are both very negative with respect to ground on many oscilloscopes, since the target (phosphor screen) is near ground.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2026, 04:33:29 pm by TimFox »
 

Online jmigalTopic starter

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2026, 01:23:31 pm »
So ive been looking through this one https://w140.com/tekwiki/images/e/e2/062-0955-00.pdf and i have some questions.

The positive bias DC restorer seems to be the most similar thing to what photofact has got going with one of the DC restoration methods detailed in there, tho its wasn't explained as deeply as id have liked. The schematic attached (page 31) applies a positive DC bias through R1, making the total voltage across R1 the sum of the average DC level and the applied bias.
1. "If the bias voltage is several times larger than the average signal DC, the total voltage variation from a white scene to the field blanking level will be only a small percentage of that in the previous circuit." This must be how the brightness control circuit showcased by photofact works by varying the bias on said resistor, but what exactly causes this? Isn't the positive bias applied here kinda just a voltage on a wire? How does that affect how much the signal swings around between peak white and blanking, isn't that fixed? Or is that the cathode (in my case) sees a (potentially) larger voltage on top of the signal? As in a 10Vpp swing isnt much when its riding on 100V?

2. How does the capacitor charge through the diode on every sync tip?
If the sync tips sit at 0V (on the diode's anode), and the cathode is wired to ground (also 0V), how does anything happen during the sync tips? But wait, the signal swings around a Q point (125V in my case). Say the peak white signal goes down to 115V and the sync signal up to 140V, passing that through a coupling capacitor does what precisely? Remove the center point of 125V and allow these levels to wonder around, right? So then we get to the diode, which now sees the wondering voltage levels alongside the biasing voltage, say, 100V (plus the forward voltage drop), what happens from here?

3. Won't the diode just short the picture information to ground?
After the sync tip ends and the now negative going picture information begins its tomfoolery on the diode's anode, won't it make the diode forward biased and get shorted to ground?

4. Adding said diode myself:
So the anode is connected to the C2-R3 junction, but does the cathode go to ground or the bias voltage off RV1? If it were to go to ground, as far as i can see anything above 0.6V on the anode and its a dead short. With the cathode connected to the bias voltage off RV1, both sides sit at the same voltage and nothing happens. But then the signal appears, as far as i can see, when that happens (say a sync signal, the highest positive peak available), the anode ends up sitting at a higher voltage than the cathode, the diode conducts and the capacitor charges up to whatever value (im guessing that of the sync pulse), then the sync pulse ends and the picture information begins, which sits lower than the sync pulse, meaning that it swings below whatever voltage the capacitor was charged to, and thus lower than whatever voltage got the diode to conduct in the first place, is this right? Idk it feels like im spinning in circles

Thank you for your patience
 

Online jmigalTopic starter

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2026, 03:17:35 pm »
I think i did it.

Ive been sitting on the DC restoration tomfoolery and i think i figured it out:
Any AC signal contains an average DC level, just like our video signal - which swings upwards from 0V (sync). Passing this signal through a capacitor makes it AC-coupled, meaning the DC component of the signal, the one containing all the information regarding the black/blank and peak white levels, vanishes into thin air. The amplifier doesn’t know what a black/blank is, nor does it care, this makes brightness dependent on picture content, as the waveform is now free to drift around based on the average voltage of the waveform, like a boat on waves, with the black/blank and sync pulses turning into an average voltage on an AC signal instead of fixed points, which leads to varying brightness levels and a washed out picture.

We solve this issue by clamping the waveform to a periodically repeating signal, like the sync pulses (remember, they're no longer at 0V since they now swing around a Q-point), thus allowing the signal levels containing the picture information to extend unidirectionally from a fixed reference point.
There are various ways to implement DC restoration in a video amplifier, options range from three components to entire circuits. I believe the best one for my use-case is by rectification in the picture tube input circuit.

This topology allows us to implement brightness control alongside the fixed reference point for the waveform. Another reason as to why I opted for this method over a different one is because the amplifier drives the cathode instead of a control grid, which is now wired to ground. In other words, if our CRT's cut-off voltage were to be -50V, we would need the control grid to be 50V more negative than our cathode in order for the screen to turn black.

As previously mentioned, the signal our video amplifier outputs is inverted, meaning the composite sync is now the most positive part of our signal, with the peak white level taking the most negative place – this is crucial for the clamp's functionality:
Assuming a bias and cut-off voltage of 50V, and a signal amplitude of 20Vpp (example values):

a) A bias voltage is established across R3 via the potentiometer. When the bias is set to be several times higher than the average signal DC, the total voltage variation from peak white to sync becomes lower, this serves to keep the clamp stable. Noise and ripple on a 10Vpp signal clamped to ground cause shifts in the black level to appear a lot more noticeable compared to the same signal clamped to, say, 100V.
b) The diode, connected with the anode to the C-R junction and the cathode to the wiper of our potentiometer, does not conduct, as there is no voltage difference between its two terminals, both sitting at 50V.
c) The highest positive peak (sync) occurs and sets the anode at a higher voltage compared to the cathode, the diode is now forward-biased, allowing the capacitor to accumulate a charge proportional to the level of the sync tip (plus the diode's voltage drop), which clamps the sync tip to 50V. Because this sits at exactly the cut-off voltage, the beam is off – there is no picture.
d) The capacitor is sitting at a higher potential compared to the bias voltage, causing it to (slowly) discharge through the resistor based on their time constant, getting topped off at every positive peak (sync). How fast the capacitor discharges is dependent on the average DC level of the waveform – If the picture is white, the signal spends most of the active time period at the negative peak, say, 30V, leading to a low average voltage, and thus a lower voltage difference across the resistor. In the case of a dark scene, the signal spends most of the active time period closer to the positive peak, say, 40V, causing a higher average voltage and, in turn, a higher voltage difference across the resistor.
e) After the sync tip ends, the signal can only extend in one direction from here, which is downwards to the negative peak (maximum white level) – there is now a picture with a stable black level.

The brightness control works by shifting the point where the signal gets clamped around the cut-off voltage. If our bias were to be set at 40V instead of 50V, the darkest parts of the image would be a brighter black (gray, up to white if you're determined enough), pushing the peak white levels further away from the cutoff point, increasing the picture's brightness. Were we to set the bias at 60V instead, our positive peak (sync) would sit above cut-off, dragging the peak white level closer to cut-off, and thus lowering the picture's brightness.

The time constant needs to be somewhere within a handful of frames, like 50ms. As for the diode, it needs nothing fancy, its only requirment being a minimum leakage current – the 1N4148 will do.

Im not 100% certain on the 10Vpp signal riding on 100V part but otherwise it makes perfect sense to me.


Ive also added a gain/contrast control pot of 220 ohms. The value was picked to be as low as humanly possible without loading the source too much (source impedance of probably 75 ohms and the pot have a current draw of 3.3mA). But now theres a chain of RC filters. We have low-pass filter A formed by the source impedance and the thevenin resistance of the contrast control potentiometer with the input capacitance (cutoff at 75MHz), followed by the high-pass filter comprised of the grid leak resistor and input coupling capacitor (cutoff at 3Hz), and finally, low-pass filter B made up by the source impedance and thevenin resistance and grid leak resistor all added together paired with the input capacitance (cutoff at 57MHz). Side note, thevenin resistance was calculated with one of the parallel resistances added together with the source impedance.
Is this my fault or does this kind of just happen with video amplifiers? Am i supposed to try and calculate what this cluster of RC filters does to the amplitude and phase response of the signal or do i just wing it?

Also, i calculated the input capacitance to be the tube's input C (13.8pF), the transfer C multiplied by the miller effect (0.05 x 251 = 12.55pF, i used the theoretical maximum gain given by gm x RL) and stray/wiring (say 2pF) than rounded up to 30pF.

Edit: accidentally left in the 1k value instead of 220 ohms for the contrast pot in the schematic
« Last Edit: October 21, 2026, 05:34:10 pm by jmigal »
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: CRT pentode video amp
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2026, 09:53:25 pm »
In an ideal circuit, requiring additional timing, the clamp would happen at the “back porch” (see a detailed description of composite-sync video waveform), which is shortly later than the sync tip, and is the reference black level past which the whiter video proceeds.  This requires an active switch (like a FET) that is switched ON at exactly the right time from a timing circuit, instead of a passive diode, after the series capacitor.  I’m not sure how this switch was done with tubes.
This is called “keyed clamp” in the literature.
 


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