House mains electricity issues

[Electro Detective]

OP is lucky to be alive,
not injured,
no ladder fall rash,
no metal and plastic shrapnel lodged in eyes,
no skipping heart beat..
 
and butt hurt that VERY concerned EXPERIENCED people here had an "unnecessarily hostile" ?!!  go for seriously screwing up ?  Please...   

How can you be sure the house wiring is not a total DISASTER waiting to happen, if others before you attempted similar cheapskate wiring practices too?

Imagine a child in this scenario,
bored and poking about, the kid gets silently toasted whilst the partners are bonking their brains out in the closed bedroom
or on the computer giggling and sniping on Facebook.

You need to get an experienced electrician in there YESTERDAY to give you the bad news,
and a good price to stress test the entire installation
to find and undo all the accumulated cheapskate wiring fiascos,

end of story.

[P90]

I was doing some work at my friends house and discovered that some genious had added an additional light fixture in the living room by using the existing switch ground as a neutral, and the neutral line as a second hot to the new fixture. So, it appears these people are everywhere among us...

[Electro Detective]

I was doing some work at my friends house and discovered that some genious had added an additional light fixture in the living room by using the existing switch ground as a neutral, and the neutral line as a second hot to the new fixture. So, it appears these people are everywhere among us...

I eliminated some of the same vaGenius work years ago found lurking at 'immediate family' houses, I don't need the drama. 

Yes, these cheapskates are everywhere, and unfortunately even the latest high powered 'They Live' glasses    don't show up their handywork,

only a suspicious non assuming person with electrical knowledge and proper test gear can ferret it out. 

[grumpydoc]

Taking your points slightly out of order.

The thread is hostile because dicking around with mains electricity is dangerous if you do not know what you are doing. Wooden box dangerous for you or someone else in your house, and the good denizens f this forum will get worked up about that sort of thing.

By using protective earth as the return for an appliance you risk making large amounts of stuff live if there is a separate fault in the earth wiring. Connecting E-N in the property is unlikely to cause any problems and, indeed, is done with some earthing schemes, but don't do it anyway.

There are different rules on the continent and sockets are allowed in bathrooms as long as they are not in zone 0/1/2.

Yes, there are rules about L-E leakage so a very small amount is allowed. You cannot extrapolate from that to "it is generally OK to use protective earth as a regular return connection".

[P90]

I was doing some work at my friends house and discovered that some genious had added an additional light fixture in the living room by using the existing switch ground as a neutral, and the neutral line as a second hot to the new fixture. So, it appears these people are everywhere among us...

I eliminated some of the same vaGenius work years ago found lurking at 'immediate family' houses, I don't need the drama. 

Yes, these cheapskates are everywhere, and unfortunately even the latest high powered 'They Live' glasses    don't show up their handywork,

only a suspicious non assuming person with electrical knowledge and proper test gear can ferret it out. 

She told me this genius that installed the said can light fixture was a so-called electrician... that's scary...

[tggzzz]

Oh dear.

4) In this very large and unnecessarily hostile thread, there are, I think, just two messages referring to what might actually be wrong in connecting N to E inside the house

You continue to miss the root cause of what is "wrong": someone thinking they understand X when clearly they do not understand X - and finding all sorts of ways of avoiding that realisation.

In the face of that and in the light of the potentially lethal consequences, people become more insistent and blunt. That is not being "hostile".

5) There are PSUs and other gadgets and appliances, that do legitimately (?) connect L to E, so long as the leakage is very small - obviously smaller than the 15mA, or so, that would trip the RCD.

Name them.

6) In Germany there is at least two places (hotels) I have visited that have power sockets inside the bathroom, next to the sink, and I have used them to boil my kettle and my coffee maker which was resting on the sink. Either those hotels have illegal installations or they just do not care. Similar power sockets found in other EU countries I have visited, most modern hotels, above and below the sink in the bathroom.  There are also other power sockets so you can plug in your washing machine in the bathroom. My bathroom (in UK), which is larger than a small bedroom, has no power sockets.

And why is that relevant to what you have attempted to do?

[RGB255_0_0]

Using Earth as a return supply not only has EMI repercussions but could make every grounded metal fixture an alternate path. So you can be using your shaver and injure someone else.

[P90]

Using Earth as a return supply not only has EMI repercussions but could make every grounded metal fixture an alternate path. So you can be using your shaver and injure someone else.

yup, you get a break in the ground connection somewhere down the wire, and suddenly your metal toaster housing is now energized.

[Electro Detective]

"she'll be right lads, it's only three wires, not rocket science.. " 

    

[james_s]

I'm not sure how this relates to the original post but since it came up I'll comment on it. The UK is the only place I've visited where mains sockets in bathrooms are not allowed. Throughout North America it's standard practice, there will always be a socket in the bathroom so you can plug in a shaver, hair dryer, electric toothbrush charger, curling iron, whatever. As of the late 70s these are required to be GFCI (RCD) protected but they're not isolated. It's been this way forever and it's not as if people are dropping dead every day. It has been far safer since "hot chassis" radios went away, there used to be incidents where someone would reach out of the shower/bath to adjust the radio and contact a live metal shaft with a damaged or missing knob.

Now regarding the original topic, you guys are all correct of course but I will agree with the OP that some of you are being unnecessarily rude. There is no reason to call someone expletives even when they are wrong, there are more tactful ways of telling them that they are more likely to listen to. Obviously the OP should stop and preferably hire an electrician, but this sort of work is not out of reach of a relative beginner *provided* they take the time to read a book and understand the fundamentals, but clearly that has not been done here. It is never ok to use the earth ground as neutral to power a load. It may not be too difficult to drop a new run from the light or from a socket on the opposite side of the wall if there is one but I do echo the concerns of not proceeding until you know how to do it properly and why. This stuff really does have the potential for lethal consequences, particularly in 240V land and even more so in a damp location like a bathroom.

[Monkeh]

I'm not sure how this relates to the original post but since it came up I'll comment on it. The UK is the only place I've visited where mains sockets in bathrooms are not allowed.

Except they are.

[james_s]

I'm not sure how this relates to the original post but since it came up I'll comment on it. The UK is the only place I've visited where mains sockets in bathrooms are not allowed.

Except they are.

That's news to me. The only thing close I ever saw in any of the homes I was in was a low power transformer isolated 110V shaver socket of the sort discussed here. Even the light switches were always outside of the room, and the exhaust fans all had pull cords dangling from the ceiling. It worked fine but it was definitely unusual compared to what I'm used to.

[Monkeh]

I'm not sure how this relates to the original post but since it came up I'll comment on it. The UK is the only place I've visited where mains sockets in bathrooms are not allowed.

Except they are.

That's news to me. The only thing close I ever saw in any of the homes I was in was a low power transformer isolated 110V shaver socket of the sort discussed here. Even the light switches were always outside of the room, and the exhaust fans all had pull cords dangling from the ceiling. It worked fine but it was definitely unusual compared to what I'm used to.

Most 'electricians' can't be bothered with the great complexities of simple measurement to meet the regulations, so they chicken out and just don't install things inside the room. And those are the ones who are bright enough to realise it's allowed, then we have the large number who think it's not.

[RGB255_0_0]

I'm not sure how this relates to the original post but since it came up I'll comment on it. The UK is the only place I've visited where mains sockets in bathrooms are not allowed.

Except they are.

That's news to me. The only thing close I ever saw in any of the homes I was in was a low power transformer isolated 110V shaver socket of the sort discussed here. Even the light switches were always outside of the room, and the exhaust fans all had pull cords dangling from the ceiling. It worked fine but it was definitely unusual compared to what I'm used to.

It's somewhat legacy considering the RCD standalone outlets you can get now but even RCD/GFCI devices do not protect you from 2-wire appliances being mis-used. So I do not see a problem with denying full mains outlets in bathrooms.

Besides, our bathrooms are normally smaller, and dressing areas are normally in bedrooms here.

[grumpydoc]

I'm not sure how this relates to the original post but since it came up I'll comment on it. The UK is the only place I've visited where mains sockets in bathrooms are not allowed.

Except they are.

Except that, as they have to be 3m from zone 1, most UK bathrooms are not large enough to allow them.

[james_s]

I don't have a problem with denying them, I just observed it as as being unusual compared to what I'm used to since I don't think I've ever seen a bathroom in the US that didn't have a socket in it. Even the smallest ones with just a toilet and sink will have a socket.

[Monkeh]

I don't have a problem with denying them, I just observed it as as being unusual compared to what I'm used to since I don't think I've ever seen a bathroom in the US that didn't have a socket in it. Even the smallest ones with just a toilet and sink will have a socket.

A toilet and a sink does not a bathroom make - no problem putting a socket in there.

We can have shaver sockets installed rather closer, most people just don't.

[james_s]

Well in the US it's still called a "bathroom" even if there's no bath. That's the standard term used to describe any room with a toilet in it. Technically I think those are called a "1/3rd bath" if you look at house listings. A half bath means there's a toilet, sink and shower. It can be debated whether that makes any sense at all but that doesn't change what is, I didn't come up with the names.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Careful, electricity is not really a large killer in western society.
A lot of that is because of the draconian rules. For good or bad that's just the way it is.

This guy has hundreds of posts and is interested in electronics so try not to be so rude.
Ask him to correct his ways and point out why, I think that is enough.

To put it in context, suicide, automobiles and bad diet are far far far bigger killers.

Btw i have seen the handiwork of plenty of bad and non electricians, I guess some of the temptation to DIY is the additional compliance costs of the electricians.


Here's an electrical rules test for our Aussie sparkies. I haven't looked hard but I can't remember a rule against it, it just seems wrong.

3 phase 20A Neutral and earth gpo.
Is it mandatory to wire the neutral pin? Can someone point me to the rule in AS3000?
I found some today with only 3 cores and earth run to them.

[Monkeh]

Common sense alone says if it has a neutral pin it should be connected. They make them without, or at least the normal ones everyone else uses.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Yes common sense says that, so I think it will be in the rules.
But where?

[helius]

Well in the US it's still called a "bathroom" even if there's no bath. That's the standard term used to describe any room with a toilet in it.

Which makes it confusing as to what to call a room with a sink but no toilet: in practice a variety of terms are used, like waiter's pantry, lavatory, wet bar, or scullery.

[Monkeh]

Yes common sense says that, so I think it will be in the rules.
But where?

Hell if I know. Over here it'd probably fall under the requirement to install according to manufacturers instructions (this applies to everything).

[akis]

You continue to miss the root cause of what is "wrong": someone thinking they understand X when clearly they do not understand X - and finding all sorts of ways of avoiding that realisation.

I did not think I was doing anything "right" or "wrong". That is why I asked here. I have also said that I will rectify the issue.

In the face of that and in the light of the potentially lethal consequences, people become more insistent and blunt. That is not being "hostile".

One would and should say, "This is potentially hazardous for this and this reason". Not, "I hope you kill just yourself" and any of the other clearly arrogant and hostile quotes. It seems this forum is inhabited by too many unemployed electricians perhaps?

Name them.

Large numbers of adaptors. We have had two threads discussing these here in the past.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/laptop-power-supply-adaptors-mains-on-the-output!/msg417774/#msg417774

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/smps-leakage-currents-present-in-the-output-pins/msg592438/#msg592438

6) In Germany there is at least two places (hotels) I have visited that have power sockets inside the bathroom, next to the sink, and I have used them to boil my kettle and my coffee maker which was resting on the sink. Either those hotels have illegal installations or they just do not care. Similar power sockets found in other EU countries I have visited, most modern hotels, above and below the sink in the bathroom.  There are also other power sockets so you can plug in your washing machine in the bathroom. My bathroom (in UK), which is larger than a small bedroom, has no power sockets.

And why is that relevant to what you have attempted to do?

I was referring to some earlier post that mentioned bathrooms. As part of this discussion of what electrical work you should and should not do in a bathroom.

I have since done a search on "shaver socket bathroom" and there are dozens of similar posts to mine dating back decades.

I would ask the authors to delete all the arrogant and unnecessarily hostile posts and then this thread might offer some merit in years to come.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Sorry to sidetrack thread. - found it, in 'verification'. that's enough for me.

8.3.7.2 Results
Proof that all active, neutral and protective earthing conductors in the
electrical installation are correctly connected to the corresponding terminals
of electrical equipment so that-

 etc.

Yes I was thinking of the manufacturers instructions one too.
good now I have a reason to rip them all out.