Author Topic: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2  (Read 44191 times)

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Offline Michael_PTopic starter

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How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« on: November 12, 2015, 01:34:16 pm »
Hallo,

can some one help Im looking for simple laser  that will have 5 J/cm^2 
the problem is that in all offers in expresses there are other parameters than J/cm^2
How to calculate 100 mW to J/cm^2?
if they give this paramters


 |O
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2015, 01:43:59 pm »
J/cm^2 is an energy density per area, it is meaningless in reference to a continuous power output.

Tim
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Offline Michael_PTopic starter

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2015, 02:33:27 pm »
J/cm^2 is an energy density per area, it is meaningless in reference to a continuous power output.

Tim
OK, I agree but how to calculate? this reference look like challenge
 

Offline CM800

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2015, 03:03:00 pm »
I'm assuming you are trying to work out how much power the laser will be able to apply to a specific area.

Watt = Joules per Second
W=J/S

so you would have to work out how much power you get from the laser over a specific area (It will depend on distance, beam quality and the air / fluid it passes through)
so you would measure the size of the laser's dot and get that size in m2
lets say it is 1mm2 (1x10-6 m2)

From there, work out the duration of the laser power (lets say 1 second)

100mW = 100mJ / 1s

so every second you will be applying 100mJ to the area of 1mm^2.

so...
J / S / m2

therefore the answer is:

10J/s/cm2
(joules per second per cm^2


 

Offline LaserSteve

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2015, 03:11:24 pm »
Be aware that the laser listed will have a elliptical beam. All direct diode lasers without beam shape correction optics are elliptical due to device physics.

Steve 

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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2015, 10:57:17 pm »
J/cm^2 is an energy density per area, it is meaningless in reference to a continuous power output.

Tim
OK, I agree but how to calculate? this reference look like challenge

You don't...

Again, it's meaningless.

Do you have a purpose in mind?  Do you want to deliver energy in a known time frame?  Is there some other specification or background information you could tell us?  Anything at all..........??

Tim
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Offline TimFox

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2015, 11:08:38 pm »
To go from watts to joules, you need time.  Normally, this would be a pulse duration to get joules/pulse.
To get joules/cm^2 from joules/pulse, you need to specify the distance from the source, and know the solid angle into which the source emits (inverse-square law).
 

Offline Michael_PTopic starter

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2015, 02:11:47 am »
To go from watts to joules, you need time.  Normally, this would be a pulse duration to get joules/pulse.
To get joules/cm^2 from joules/pulse, you need to specify the distance from the source, and know the solid angle into which the source emits (inverse-square law).

I want to get something like is in this publication http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24871130


« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 02:16:09 am by Michael_P »
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2015, 03:22:30 am »
Hmm okay, so they've delivered a dose of laser energy to a sample, I suppose.  Does the paper mention what duration of pulse, power level, etc. was used?

Tim
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Offline Michael_PTopic starter

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2015, 05:27:30 am »
Hmm okay, so they've delivered a dose of laser energy to a sample, I suppose.  Does the paper mention what duration of pulse, power level, etc. was used?

Tim

If I good understand optiamal will be 5 min a day,  dose about ~4 J / cm^2

Quote
The same laser unit described above (Newport) was used for in vivo  experiments. This unit has a 400-?m fiber delivery system, and the end piece was placed directly on the exposed pulpal tissue and used at 0.01 W/cm2 for 5 min in continuous mode for a total dose of 3 J/cm2. The end piece was moved continuously in a smooth, uniform motion during treatments to ensure that there was no appreciable heating. Animals were treated only once and followed for 8 weeks (mice) or 12 weeks (rats).
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 05:36:48 am by Michael_P »
 

Offline SteveLy

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2015, 06:55:53 am »
Without knowing more about what you're trying to do it's hard to give advice. Wanting a certain J/cm2 is not meaningless. If you know the power output of your laser in watts and the (effective) spot size of the beam then from the desired J/cm2 you can calculate how many secons/minutes you will need to keep the target illuminated to deliver so many J per cm2.

This J/cm2 quantity is not a property of the laser, which is why you can't find it in the data sheets. It is up to what you do with the laser. Note: W = J/s. J is a unit of energy, W is a unit of power.
 

Offline Michael_PTopic starter

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2015, 08:54:34 am »
Without knowing more about what you're trying to do it's hard to give advice. Wanting a certain J/cm2 is not meaningless. If you know the power output of your laser in watts and the (effective) spot size of the beam then from the desired J/cm2 you can calculate how many secons/minutes you will need to keep the target illuminated to deliver so many J per cm2.

This J/cm2 quantity is not a property of the laser, which is why you can't find it in the data sheets. It is up to what you do with the laser. Note: W = J/s. J is a unit of energy, W is a unit of power.

At first I want know "How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2"
supouse
if we chose to use power 100mW laser diode at given assumption 10 mm from target for 300 sek., how many J/cm^2 can be absorbed by target? (diode data sheets as in first post)
 

Offline SteveLy

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2015, 09:04:37 am »
100mW is 0.1W = 0.1J/s. Sustained for 30s it will deliver 0.1J/s x 30s = 3J of energy. Over how many cm2 that is will depend on the spot size (beam diameter) of the laser. But just divide 3J by the illuminated area in cm2. Distance to target does not matter at such short distances because the divergence of a laser beam will be negligible.
 

Offline LaserSteve

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2015, 03:52:17 pm »
I currently work at a university, I pulled down the academic  paper listed above, accessed on 11/13/2015.   I hereby include a paragraph of it under the US Copyright  Scheme  Educational Use Clause, and for Laser Safety Purposes.

I Quote the hardware portion of the paper:

Laser treatments

In vitro assays
A near-infrared laser was used in all experiments. Specifically, an 810-nm GaAlAs laser diode system (driver, temperature controller, and cooling mount) with a fiber optic delivery system (400 uM fiber) (all from Newport) was used in continuous wave mode. Laser dose was checked before each experiment with a power meter (Newport). Power density (irradiance, W/cm2) was varied to achieve various energy densities (fluence, J/cm2) for treating samples. For example, a spot size of 20, 30, or 50 mm for four wells in a 96-well plate, one 35-mm dish, or one 60-mm dish, respectively, was used by varying the target distance (beam divergence, 15°) and adjusting power (irradiance, W/cm2) assessed with a power meter. All treatments were performed as described earlier, and treatment time (5 min) was kept constant in all experiments. Owing to variations in laser output at very low power levels and attenuation by cell culture plastic and medium, a 10% dose variance was included in all in vitro experiments. Cell-free solution experiments were performed in black wells, whereas cell treatments were performed with a black background (card sheet) placed below the clear-bottom culture dishes or wells.

In vivo assays
The same laser unit described above (Newport) was used for in vivo (mouse and rat) experiments. This unit has a 400-?m fiber delivery system, and the end piece was placed directly on the exposed pulpal tissue and used at 0.01 W/cm2 for 5 min in continuous mode for a total dose of 3 J/cm2. The end piece was moved continuously in a smooth, uniform motion during treatments to ensure that there was no appreciable heating. Animals were treated only once and followed for 8 weeks (mice) or 12 weeks (rats).


End Quote.

       So they used 810 nM laser out of a 400 um core diameter fiber, which suggests the Newport unit is capable of emitting quite a bit of raw power. Commercial use of diode arrays with 400 uM cores is typically reserved for driving other lasers as a pump.  400 uM is typically used foo 20 watt and up diodes.  This is a big one, as in tens of Watts of CW optical output, possibly as much as 40-50 Watts.

 I did a little more digging and this is actually from Spectra Physics Lasers, which was Bought by Newport and Runs as a pretty much independent corporation, except for sales.

        My best guess as a laser professional is that this a fiber coupled pump (FCL) or a Fiber Array Pump (FAP)  laser usually used for pumping a ND:YAG laser, hence the 810 nanometer nominal wavelength. The laser changes wavelength at 0.2 nm/'C, and they die if ran too hot, hence the TEC controller to keep the laser cold.

     Its coming out of a 400 um core fiber, which means its a reasonably uniform cone of light, diverging like crazy at 15 degrees full angle, as the fiber does not have a collimating lens on it.  Its still a laser, it still focuses to a small diameter on the retina, and its still coherent, making it an  eye hazard. In every sense of the word.

    810 is downright hazardous without laser safety glasses, as it penetrates to the cornea, is strongly adsorbed by the retina, looks like a very dim red as the eye just barely detects it. 50 watts of 810 pointed at a wall looks like a dim red LED where the spot hits, if done under controlled conditions, and this is one of the hazards we train for. We use black and white CCD cameras or Find-R-Scopes (image converter tube) to deal with visualizing these wavelengths. 

       So while I can easily  find the used  FAP on Ebay, it needs a chiller and a high amperage constant current driver with no voltage  spiking or current overshoot at all, as laser diodes and laser diode array modules are very sensitive beasts that run away without current limiting and soft start., A ballast resistor just isn't good enough to drive one. Even high power FAP arrays die if you sneeze.  The right diode laser driver does not grow on trees and rarely shows up used.  This is not a project for a beginner.

  The authors of the paper had 5-15K$ worth of laser gear.

        The laser power meter with a thermal head capable of accurately measuring this is 1500-2000$ new. Probably 500$ used.  A couple of pairs of 175$ certfied safety glasses are needed. His campus Laser Safety Officer needs to know if he's doing this, as the specular reflection off the cell trays is an eye hazard and needs to be dealt with, by totally enclosing the experiment.

You  should find a competent laser technician, electrical engineer, or physicist to help you with this.  Most large research campuses have a local laser user who can advise you.

The laser you linked in the first post is the wrong wavelength at 950, and that matters in bio applications. 808-810 nm is a very common laser diode.

A key phrase here is energy density, and unless you have an accurate laser power meter, you can really mess up this experiment.


MY advice is based on 25 years of working with a wide array of  lasers in industry, laser shows, and academia. I am a certified Laser Safety Officer. This laser is not in the toy class. It is a Class IV laser hazard under the international safety scheme. Which means its capable of starting a fire, and is an eye hazard even from a indirect, scattered, beam.

You should be aware that this type of laser is hazardous. It requires users to have  proper, professionally made, Eye Protection.

Steve


« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 04:35:34 pm by LaserSteve »
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Offline Michael_PTopic starter

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2015, 05:18:57 pm »
       So they used 810 nM laser out of a 400 um core diameter fiber, which suggests the Newport unit is capable of emitting quite a bit of raw power. Commercial use of diode arrays with 400 uM cores is typically reserved for driving other lasers as a pump.  400 uM is typically used foo 20 watt and up diodes.  This is a big one, as in tens of Watts of CW optical output, possibly as much as 40-50 Watts.

 I did a little more digging and this is actually from Spectra Physics Lasers, which was Bought by Newport and Runs as a pretty much independent corporation, except for sales.

        My best guess as a laser professional is that this a fiber coupled pump (FCL) or a Fiber Array Pump (FAP)  laser usually used for pumping a ND:YAG laser, hence the 810 nanometer nominal wavelength. The laser changes wavelength at 0.2 nm/'C, and they die if ran too hot, hence the TEC controller to keep the laser cold.

     Its coming out of a 400 um core fiber, which means its a reasonably uniform cone of light, diverging like crazy at 15 degrees full angle, as the fiber does not have a collimating lens on it.  Its still a laser, it still focuses to a small diameter on the retina, and its still coherent, making it an  eye hazard. In every sense of the word.

    810 is downright hazardous without laser safety glasses, as it penetrates to the cornea, is strongly adsorbed by the retina, looks like a very dim red as the eye just barely detects it. 50 watts of 810 pointed at a wall looks like a dim red LED where the spot hits, if done under controlled conditions, and this is one of the hazards we train for. We use black and white CCD cameras or Find-R-Scopes (image converter tube) to deal with visualizing these wavelengths. 

       So while I can easily  find the used  FAP on Ebay, it needs a chiller and a high amperage constant current driver with no voltage  spiking or current overshoot at all, as laser diodes and laser diode array modules are very sensitive beasts that run away without current limiting and soft start., A ballast resistor just isn't good enough to drive one. Even high power FAP arrays die if you sneeze.  The right diode laser driver does not grow on trees and rarely shows up used.  This is not a project for a beginner.

  The authors of the paper had 5-15K$ worth of laser gear.

        The laser power meter with a thermal head capable of accurately measuring this is 1500-2000$ new. Probably 500$ used.  A couple of pairs of 175$ certfied safety glasses are needed. His campus Laser Safety Officer needs to know if he's doing this, as the specular reflection off the cell trays is an eye hazard and needs to be dealt with, by totally enclosing the experiment.

You  should find a competent laser technician, electrical engineer, or physicist to help you with this.  Most large research campuses have a local laser user who can advise you.

The laser you linked in the first post is the wrong wavelength at 950, and that matters in bio applications. 808-810 nm is a very common laser diode.

A key phrase here is energy density, and unless you have an accurate laser power meter, you can really mess up this experiment.


MY advice is based on 25 years of working with a wide array of  lasers in industry, laser shows, and academia. I am a certified Laser Safety Officer. This laser is not in the toy class. It is a Class IV laser hazard under the international safety scheme. Which means its capable of starting a fire, and is an eye hazard even from a indirect, scattered, beam.

You should be aware that this type of laser is hazardous. It requires users to have  proper, professionally made, Eye Protection.

Steve



Thank you Steve for your professional and competent advice, it great that you are here.

Safety google is worth every penny

In case of IR laser safety and safety googles I think about not using  it. But using GOOGLE CARDBOARD and wireless camera, how do you think it is good idea?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 05:21:55 pm by Michael_P »
 

Offline LaserSteve

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2015, 05:33:09 pm »
Ah, are you joking about Google Cardboard?  Really a used B&W CCTV camera with a C mount lens and a tripod is far more appropriate. We hook the cameras into a USB frame grabber on a PC. Most newer cell phones have  good IR filters these days, and watching a monitor means you do NOT have your head down toward the laser.

You need full wrap around glasses with an optical density (OD) of 6 at these powers.

https://www.thorlabs.com/thorcat/6300/LG4-SpecSheet.pdf

Be aware there are many  Chinese sellers of  hazardous, fake, false, laser safety glasses on Ebay, for 35-50$. You must get the real, tested, certified, legal, product.

I seriously suggest you find the services of an experienced Laser Safety Officer.


Steve



« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 09:20:10 pm by LaserSteve »
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Offline JimRemington

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2015, 07:40:11 pm »
Beware of "safety googles".
 

Online IanB

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2015, 09:56:42 pm »
This thread is really scary.
 

Offline DimitriP

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2015, 12:01:05 am »
This thread is really scary.

I wonder what is going on in forums where surgeons hang out....
   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline bson

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2015, 03:40:18 am »
100mW is 0.1W = 0.1J/s. Sustained for 30s it will deliver 0.1J/s x 30s = 3J of energy. Over how many cm2 that is will depend on the spot size (beam diameter) of the laser.
Or just diffuse it to 1cm^2 and you have 3J/cm^2.
For 30J/cm^2, light up the target for 300s.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2015, 05:45:01 am »
After agreeing with all of the safety warnings, you can do the analysis safely.  The required information is all in the data sheet and in your set-up.

A.  Power
B.  Exit spot diameter.
C.  Beam divergence.
D.  Distance from exit aperture to the site you are illuminating.
E.  Illumination time.

You use B., C. and D. to get the illuminated area, which combined with A. gives you power density.  Add illumination time and you are there.

I haven't read the source paper so don't know how accurately you need to do this in practice.  If the tolerances are tight or the effects are non-linear you have to look into details like the power profile of the beam (in is never uniform, which is the first approximation used in the above instruction.  The second approximation, which is where most stop is a gaussian profile.)

If after doing the analysis you think you want to actually try something, please read all of the warnings again.  Read about laser safety.  Read about what it is like to find out you are blind in parts of your field of vision (maybe small parts, maybe not).  Proceed with all of that in mind.
 

Online IanB

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2015, 07:43:39 am »
After agreeing with all of the safety warnings, you can do the analysis safely.  The required information is all in the data sheet and in your set-up.

A.  Power
B.  Exit spot diameter.
C.  Beam divergence.
D.  Distance from exit aperture to the site you are illuminating.
E.  Illumination time.

You use B., C. and D. to get the illuminated area, which combined with A. gives you power density.  Add illumination time and you are there.

I haven't read the source paper so don't know how accurately you need to do this in practice.  If the tolerances are tight or the effects are non-linear you have to look into details like the power profile of the beam (in is never uniform, which is the first approximation used in the above instruction.  The second approximation, which is where most stop is a gaussian profile.)

If after doing the analysis you think you want to actually try something, please read all of the warnings again.  Read about laser safety.  Read about what it is like to find out you are blind in parts of your field of vision (maybe small parts, maybe not).  Proceed with all of that in mind.

In truth, the OP cannot do the analysis at all, let alone safely.

The questions asked at the beginning are so elementary they could be answered by someone with a basic high school science education.

If the questions needed to be asked it means the questioner does not even have the most elementary scientific understanding, which means in turn the questioner is not qualified to be working in this area.
 

Offline Psi

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2015, 07:51:27 am »
This looks similar to the calculations required to do audience scanning at laser shows without damaging anyone's eyes.

Could ask the guys over at http://photonlexicon.com/forums/index.php
Just as long as you're not doing audience scanning they should be happy to help.
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 

Offline Michael_PTopic starter

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2015, 08:18:33 am »
100mW is 0.1W = 0.1J/s. Sustained for 30s it will deliver 0.1J/s x 30s = 3J of energy. Over how many cm2 that is will depend on the spot size (beam diameter) of the laser.
Or just diffuse it to 1cm^2 and you have 3J/cm^2.
For 30J/cm^2, light up the target for 300s.

According to this I try to estimate best possible choice
and it look like low power 0.5 mW ir 808 nm laser pointer with spot diameter  2,5 mm will be suitable for 5 min in direct use.
or 5 mW ir 808 nm laser pointer with spot diameter  8 mm will be suitable for 5 min in direct use.
or 10 mW ir 808 nm laser pointer with spot diameter 12 mm will be suitable for 5 min in direct use.
http://mpe.laserextreme.nl/
http://omlc.org/education/ece532/class1/irradiance_flashlight.html
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 08:02:41 pm by Michael_P »
 

Online IanB

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Re: How to calculate handheld laser power from mW to J/cm^2
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2015, 09:14:23 am »
According to this I try to estimate best possible choice and it look like low power 5 mW ir 808 nm laser pointer with spot 2,5 mm will be suitable for 5 min in direct use.

Check your calculations.

A circle of diameter 2.5 mm is 0.25 cm.

The area of the circle is therefore 3.14/4 * 0.25^2 = 0.05 cm2

If the source is 5 mW the irradiance is 5/1000 / 0.05 = 0.1 W/cm2

If this is applied for 5 minutes the total energy delivered will be 5 * 60 * 0.1 = 30 J/cm2
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 10:12:51 am by IanB »
 


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