Author Topic: Opamps - Die pictures  (Read 107269 times)

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Offline NoopyTopic starter

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #350 on: December 23, 2022, 08:24:54 pm »
Yesterday I have put the LMC662 on my ToDo list.  :-+
3fA is really "enormous".  8)
 
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Offline David Hess

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #351 on: December 24, 2022, 02:40:21 am »
Yesterday I have put the LMC662 on my ToDo list.  :-+
3fA is really "enormous".  8)

The LMC6041/2/4, LMC6061/2/4, and LMC6081/2/4 all use the same design with associated 3 femtoamp input current, so should be just as good for analysis.
 

Offline NoopyTopic starter

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #352 on: December 24, 2022, 05:30:01 am »
Yesterday I have put the LMC662 on my ToDo list.  :-+
3fA is really "enormous".  8)

The LMC6041/2/4, LMC6061/2/4, and LMC6081/2/4 all use the same design with associated 3 femtoamp input current, so should be just as good for analysis.

That is good to know! Thanks for the hint.  :-+

First I wanted to wait for the next Mouser order but that would have taken some time so I ordered a ceramic LMC662 from GB. Not the cheapest way to get one but without epoxy the pictures often get better and it is less messy.  ;D

I think I will fast forward the LMC662. He deserves it.  :-/O

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #353 on: December 24, 2022, 10:28:09 am »
Quote
half connected LMC662 - TI LMC6001
https://zeptobars.com/en/read/Ti-LMC6001-25fA-input-current

I have a saved html page with that pic saved in 2018 from ZeptoBars, so LMC6001 might also have the same die as LMC662.  Not sure where from I got the info, or if that is correct, on the die it is written LMC6001.  :-//

Would be interesting to check.




Was saving bits of info about LMC662 because I've seen a video with a big food can where the lid of the can was cut smaller, then the lid was glued in perpendicularly on a rod.  The lid was dived near the bottom of the can, without touching the can, so the can-body + lid were forming a parallel plates air capacitor.  On this capacitor there was the input of a LMC662 voltage follower.  (note the upper left capacitor with arrows suggesting variable distance between plates, that's the can+lid glued on a rod).

Then, the operator was charging the capacitor from a 9V battery, then remove the battery.  The fun part was that the charge on the lid+can capacitor was conserved, while the LMC662 follower was displaying the plates voltage (with a voltmeter improvised from an analog uA-meter and a resistor).

The input bias was so small that one could clearly see how the plates voltage was going up and down repeatedly, proportional with the distance between the plates, while the distance was changed by pulling the rod up and down.  ^-^
« Last Edit: December 24, 2022, 11:59:30 am by RoGeorge »
 
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Offline magic

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #354 on: December 24, 2022, 10:45:43 am »
Picture linked from ZeptoBars.com
Can we have some reasonable limits on the size and dimensions of images that get directly inlined here?
That's 37 mega friggin' bytes and a 6k image that you have just forced every viewer of this thread to download and display :rant:

I seem to recall that there is a video interview with Bob Pease somewhere where he says that the 6001 was derived from the 662.
The 6001 chip is obviously some dual opamp turned into single by metal layer change.
 
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Offline NoopyTopic starter

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #355 on: December 24, 2022, 11:14:16 am »
We will have to take a look to be sure!  :-/O ;D

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #356 on: December 24, 2022, 11:44:47 am »
Picture linked from ZeptoBars.com
That's 37 mega

I apologize, didn't realize it's that big.  Picture hotlink removed.
(side effect of having obscene Internet at 760Mbps download)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2022, 11:54:39 am by RoGeorge »
 

Offline magic

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #357 on: December 24, 2022, 12:55:04 pm »
Sorry for the rant, but this image went far beyond even the usual horrors of the "beginners" section :P
Besides, inlining images with such resolution is nuts IMVHO - either it's unscaled and it blows up the size of the page or it gets scaled and you can't see all that detail anyway.
For any sensible use it has to be opened it a separate tab, unless you have a high DPI monitor the size of a wall.

And going back to LMC660/662, there may or may not have been two revisions of those chips, because early datasheets (like 1989) showed 40fA typical.
OTOH, in the same interview, Pease said that simply improving the test setup had enabled them to measure it more accurately and give better specs, so it's not clear if any silicon tweak took place.
The only way to know for sure would be opening early and later production chips ::)
 

Offline NoopyTopic starter

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #358 on: December 24, 2022, 01:06:25 pm »
We will have to take a look to be sure!  :-/O ;D

 ;D

Offline David Hess

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #359 on: December 24, 2022, 02:31:12 pm »
I have a saved html page with that pic saved in 2018 from ZeptoBars, so LMC6001 might also have the same die as LMC662.  Not sure where from I got the info, or if that is correct, on the die it is written LMC6001.  :-//

The LMC6001 is an LMC6081 tested for its low input bias current.  They are otherwise the same chip.  The "typical" input bias current for the LMC6081 is just a couple femtoamps, but it is not tested to this level because of the extra cost for testing.  I have never seen an LM6081 with an input bias current higher than 5 femtoamps.

I assume that there is a layout difference between the LMC662 and LMC6042/LMC6062/LMC6082 which allows the later to be "precision" parts, but that I do not know.  Maybe the later use thermally coupled quads and the LMC662 did not?
 

Offline magic

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #360 on: December 24, 2022, 03:18:55 pm »
These two may save some people some time ;)
Not gonna bother rewatching the whole video, you guys tell me what interesting was there.

https://youtu.be/B4G3YPlO6Wg
http://class.ece.iastate.edu/djchen/EE501/2011/MonticelliRailToRailOutSwing.pdf
« Last Edit: December 24, 2022, 03:53:51 pm by magic »
 
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Offline iMo

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #361 on: December 24, 2022, 03:37:52 pm »
Do you have a modern opamp chopper picture too?
 

Offline NoopyTopic starter

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #362 on: December 24, 2022, 03:52:25 pm »
Do you have a modern opamp chopper picture too?

Not right now but I have it on my ToDo list.  ;D
 
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Offline NoopyTopic starter

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #363 on: December 27, 2022, 04:13:52 am »
[...]
Not gonna bother rewatching the whole video, you guys tell me what interesting was there.

https://youtu.be/B4G3YPlO6Wg
[...]

Roundup: It´s not easy to measure very small currents.  ;D
I didn´t find very much additional information about the 662/6001. For me it sounded like 6001 is a further development of the 662 but is not really based on the design of the 662. We will see...

Offline David Hess

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #364 on: December 27, 2022, 07:03:05 am »
Pease also discussed the development of the test circuits in his Pease Porridge column, although he never mentioned the exact application.  Resetting the integration capacitor without excessive charge injection was a challenge.  He also started with an air capacitor, but the large volume picked up too many cosmic rays until it was replaced with a smaller Teflon capacitor.

 
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Offline NoopyTopic starter

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #365 on: January 20, 2023, 07:34:02 pm »


You wanted to see the LMC662? Well, here it is!  8)

The LMC662 is a dual operational amplifier with respectable specifications. The LMC662AMJ variant here is approved for a temperature range of -55°C to +125°C. As will become apparent, the LMC662 is based on the LMC660 quad operational amplifier.

The LMC662 needs just a single supply between 5V and 15V. The current consumption is less than 0,75mA. The input voltage range includes the negative supply. The output is rail to rail. Depending on the operating point, the output stage allows currents up to 40mA. With a slewrate of 1,1V/µs, the LMC662 achieves a cutoff frequency of 1,4MHz.

The extremely low bias current of typically 2fA is achieved by a CMOS input stage. Nevertheless, the noise voltage is quite low at 22nV/√Hz. The current noise is 0,2fA/√Hz. The offset voltage is typically 1mV with a temperature drift of 1,3µV/°C.




In the datasheet of the LMC662, National Semiconductor shows the somewhat unusual structure of the LMC662. The differential amplifier at the input is followed by a voltage amplifier stage consisting of a non-inverting and an inverting amplifier. Above this voltage amplifier stage is the compensation capacitor Cc. A buffer amplifier drives two capacitors which do some feed forward in the voltage amplifier stage. The LMC662 does not have a classical output buffer stage.




Dennis M. Monticelli describes the LMC662 in great detail in the IEEE article "A Quad CMOS Single-Supply Op Amp with Rail-to-Rail Output Swing". The complete circuit including the layout of the individual transistors is shown there.




The differential amplifier at the input is classically constructed with a current source and a current mirror. The IEEE paper explains that p-channel MOSFETs without additional threshold doping were used as input transistors. This type of MOSFET would have the least noise.

The LMC662 does not provide a way to adjust the offset voltage, not even after production. Nevertheless, the values for offset voltage and drift are quite good.




The transistors M5, M19, M20 and M6 amplify the output signal of the differential amplifier and thus drive the output stage. The IEEE paper specifies a gain factor of 40dB. Z1 limits the voltage and thus the current at the output of the LMC662.

Q23 and M22 represent the amplifier stage driving the feedforward capacitors. Cff is connected to the output of the amplifier stage seen here. Cf leads to the output stage.




Transistor Q7 provides the driver for the M8/M9 push-pull output stage. According to the IEEE paper, the complex bias circuit ensures that the quiescent current of the output stage does not vary with supply voltage and process variations.






The LMC662AMJ variant, which is specified for the maximum temperature range, is shipped in a ceramic housing.






The edge length of the die is 1,9mm. The IEEE paper states that a 4µm process with two layers of poliysilicon is used, which was actually optimized for digital CMOS circuits. This can be very useful if you want to combine this opamp with digital circuits.




As will become clear later, the quad opamp LMC660 and the dual opamp LMC662 basically share the same die. They differ just in the metal layer. This metal layer here shows the designation LMC662. The letter A could stand for a first revision.




Seven mask revisions are shown in the center of the die. Accordingly, a mask has been revised once. The structures next to the mask revisions allow an evaluation of the imaging quality.




On the right edge, seven complex structures are shown under the National Semiconductor logo. Dots number the structures. Here, in addition to the imaging performance, the alignment of the masks against each other can be checked.




The magazine "Electronics Design Network" (11/2012) contains a picture of the LMC660 quadruple operational amplifier. According to the text, it is a representation that was used for troubleshooting. The different masks were printed with different colors on several foils. If one puts the foils on top of each other, overlapping layers create mixed colors and one can check the structures quite efficiently.




The already referenced IEEE paper contains a picture of the structures of the LMC660. Thick black lines show the areas of the four operational amplifiers. In the left area, the bias circuit is marked.




The input transistors M1/M2 (green) and the transistors of the associated current mirror M3/M4 (yellow) are each located in places where they are disturbed as little as possible. On the one hand, thermal gradients are problematic, which result primarily from the power dissipation of the output stage transistors (red). The alignment of output stages and input transistors on the symmetry axes ensures that thermal gradients have a very similar effect on both paths of the differential amplifier and thus compensate each other. Another issue is mechanical stress that result from integration into the package. These loads are also lowest on the symmetry axes.




Apart from the metal layer, the dual opamp LMC662 uses the same design as the quadruple opamp LM660. The two opamps on the right and bottom edge remain unused here.






The individual components of the opamp can still be recognized quite well despite the two layers of polysilicon. Particularly noticeable are the three large capacitors next to the input and the output stage transistors.

The inputs of the opamps are equipped with protection circuits. According to the IEEE article, there is a 20Ω current-limiting resistor, followed by protective diodes to the supply potentials. The presence of these diodes is noteworthy because their leakage current must be low enough not to raise the very small input current of the opamp too much. In this context, it is surprising that the IEEE paper specifies a summed leakage current of 50fA, while the bias current should typically be just 2fA.  :-//




Under the metal layer there are four complete opamps. The metal layer above the unused opamps has been heavily modified. The main reason seems to be the different pinning in the smaller package. In order to connect the pins to the circuit in a meaningful way, the bondpads had to be moved.




The input transistors M1/M2 consist of eight circular elements each, which are interleaved in such a way that thermal gradients affect both paths of the differential amplifier as equally as possible. A similarly strong interleaving is implemented in the OPA627 (https://www.richis-lab.de/Opamp22.htm). The transistors M3/M4, which represent the current mirror of the differential amplifier, are each divided into at least two transistors and cross-connected.

The source contacting (red) is inconspicuous. However, the IEEE paper describes that the different distances to the individual transistors are quite critical and can lead to an unbalanced behavior of the differential amplifier. Accordingly, 50 different configurations were simulated until the structure seen here was deemed optimal.




The highside and lowside transistors are quite large so that they can handle the high output currents.




In a CMOS circuit, generating a stable reference voltage is a challenge. In the LMC662, one uses a bandgap reference based on the two special NPN transistors Q26/Q27. These are partially lateral bipolar transistors that can be implemented within a CMOS process.




The structure of such a lateral bipolar transistor can be seen in the IEEE publication "Photodetection With Gate-Controlled Lateral BJTs From Standard CMOS Technology". An n-channel MOSFET inherently contains a parasitic NPN transistor, which has been subsequently colored red here. To use this transistor, the gate of the MOSFET must be connected in such a way that this area is always blocked.

The construction contains a second, parasitic collector. This must be connected to the positive supply potential so that the transistor remains isolated from the substrate. At the same time, however, this means that a current flows through this collector that is proportional to the current through the lateral collector. In order for the lateral collector to take a relevant share of the current, it must be placed as close as possible to the emitter. The current distribution is strongly influenced by production variations and cannot be controlled excessively well. The circuit of the bandgap reference ensures that this tolerance does not have an excessive influence on the reference voltage.






Viewed from above, such CMOS NPN transistors have a concentric structure. As usual for a bandgap reference, the two transistors Q27/Q26 have emitter areas of different sizes. In the LMC662, the ratio of the areas is 4:1.

Emitter and gate are connected to each other. Here in the picture, the difference is hardly visible due to the small structures. The purple appearing area is the gate electrode, within which the individual emitters are located. Directly around the gate electrode the lateral collector C1 is tapped. The frame around this construct is the base area, which in turn is surrounded by the collector C2. While C2 contacts the positive supply, the substrate is connected to the negative supply through the outermost frame.


https://www.richis-lab.de/Opamp62.htm

 :-/O
 
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #366 on: January 20, 2023, 08:46:35 pm »
Well I guess that puts the bootstrapped input protection diode theory to rest then :(  They must have really low (or balanced) leakage currents.

That's a great write-up, thanks.  I'm not sure there are many opamps that switch between dual and quad with just a metalization change (?).
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #367 on: January 20, 2023, 08:55:15 pm »
Wow, amazing work, thank you!  :o
Will take a closer look, side by side.

The IEEE article online (doi:10.1109/jssc.1986.1052645):
http://class.ece.iastate.edu/djchen/ee501/2008/MonticelliRailToRailOutSwing.pdf

Thanks again, I was very curious about LMC662.  :-+

Offline NoopyTopic starter

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #368 on: January 21, 2023, 11:58:06 am »
It was a pleasure!  :-/O ^-^

If we believe the IEEE paper the effective leakage of the protection diodes is quite high with 50fA. Somehow that doesn't fit with the 2fA bias current.  :-//

No, you don't see it often that single/dual/quad opamps share the same die. You need more silicon but your mask set is the same (except for the metal mask). Perhaps they even build some bathes without the metal layer and when stock is low they finish the wafer depending on what configuration is needed.  :-//

I will do the LMC60x2 too. But have to heat up the furnace for these...  :-/O

Offline magic

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #369 on: January 21, 2023, 09:47:38 pm »
The structure of such a lateral bipolar transistor can be seen in the IEEE publication "Photodetection With Gate-Controlled Lateral BJTs From Standard CMOS Technology".
This paper refers to some special "triple-well" CMOS process. These nested P and N wells are not normal.

LMC660 is made on ordinary P-well process, with P-ch devices fabricated directly in the N substrate and N-ch devices in P-wells embedded into the substrate. The substrate is biased to VCC. All those NPN emitter followers are described as "substrate NPNs" by Monticelli and the substrate constitutes their collectors. Collector connections visible around them must be to the substrate, or some surface N+ ring surrounding the P-well.
 
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Offline David Hess

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #370 on: January 21, 2023, 11:25:35 pm »
No, you don't see it often that single/dual/quad opamps share the same die. You need more silicon but your mask set is the same (except for the metal mask). Perhaps they even build some bathes without the metal layer and when stock is low they finish the wafer depending on what configuration is needed.  :-//

In the past the quad die would not have fit inside the dual package.  Parts like the original SO-8 LT1013 had to have the dual operational amplifier rotated 90 degrees to even fit the dual die, leading to a different pinout.
 
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Offline NoopyTopic starter

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #371 on: January 22, 2023, 04:53:56 am »
The structure of such a lateral bipolar transistor can be seen in the IEEE publication "Photodetection With Gate-Controlled Lateral BJTs From Standard CMOS Technology".
This paper refers to some special "triple-well" CMOS process. These nested P and N wells are not normal.

LMC660 is made on ordinary P-well process, with P-ch devices fabricated directly in the N substrate and N-ch devices in P-wells embedded into the substrate. The substrate is biased to VCC. All those NPN emitter followers are described as "substrate NPNs" by Monticelli and the substrate constitutes their collectors. Collector connections visible around them must be to the substrate, or some surface N+ ring surrounding the P-well.


Thanks for the hint to the tripple well process! I haven´t thought about that.
But in my view that is more likely than your explanation. Are you sure about your interpretation?




The structure of the NMOS transistors (for example in the upper left corner) would fit perfectly to a tripple well process. If the massive V- contacts a p-well here what is the inner structure that contains the four NMOS?

Monticelli talks about substrate NPNs because they basically work like this even if it just the "substrate well". "Tripple well NPN" would sound strange.  ;)

To be honest I´m not 100% sure... Will think about it the rest of the day. :phew:

What would be the V- connection I called "SUB" if C2 contacts the substrate?
 
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Offline magic

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #372 on: January 22, 2023, 10:47:10 am »
On page 1 Monticelli clearly calls it "a conventional 4-µm, double-polysilicon, P-well process optimized for digital chips".

On page 4: "[input] devices are built in the substrate" - input devices are P-ch, so the substrate is N and must be biased positive for functional junction isolation, this is shown on fig. 2.

On page 6: "These needs are all met by equipping the substrate n-p-n's with lateral collector elements" (about the bias circuit).

This bias circuit construction wouldn't make sense if nested wells were available. In such technology it could be simply realized with ordinary vertical NPNs embedded in negative-biased P substrate. But vertical NPNs with free collectors are not available in P-well process (the collector is the substrate = VCC) and hence all the gymnastics with adding lateral collectors.

Rings surrounding P-wells could be P guard rings intended to intercept minority carriers (holes) injected by the wells into the substrate during ESD events, before they are "collected" by some other P-well and trigger further disruption of circuit operation and possibly latch-up. I'm guessing here, I'm not nearly as familiar with CMOS as with classic bipolar, but I recall reading about such things.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2023, 11:12:00 am by magic »
 
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Offline NoopyTopic starter

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #373 on: January 22, 2023, 11:15:32 am »
I agree with you. Thanks for the explanation!  :-+

I will change the pictures/text...

Offline NoopyTopic starter

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #374 on: January 22, 2023, 11:43:38 am »


It´s no big difference but it should look like this.

It  sounds plausible that the guard ring collects free charge carriers. In the end there are a lot of charges flowing through the substrate and it is a precision circuit.

Thanks again to magic!  :-+
 
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