Author Topic: PCB power planes  (Read 30561 times)

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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: PCB power planes
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2022, 08:20:53 pm »
The output used 4u7 and 22nf capacitors ( bulk and decoupling) . By switching out two of the 22nf capacitors to 150pf ( can't remember exactly but one was a 0805 , the other an 0402 i believe. it's 8 year ago... the 22nf were x7r, the pf was c0g) i was able to make enough of a dent in the spectrum so it would pass without affecting the circuit. they used 4 bulk caps and 5 or 6 of the little guys.

Sometimes you do need to tweak the PDN. network analyzers can be very helpful for that.

Reminiscent of the olden days when they'd throw in a "trap" network as needed; most often, I think, this was something needed for signal filtering anyway, like to notch the carrier tone in a TV's IF strip (45-something odd MHz, whatever it usually was).  But sometimes this applies to output filtering, or supply filtering.  Up to and including making an LC filtered power supply ("choke input rectifier") resonant at twice mains, or other harmonics, to make use of a much smaller choke than would otherwise be needed.

Also "swinging" chokes, where the air gap was intentionally "too" small (and tilted or stepped, to give more gradual saturation), reducing the minimum load current for stable voltage regulation.  (An LC filter delivers the average rectified voltage (Vout ~= 0.9 Vrms), but reverts to cap-input behavior (Vout ~= 1.4 Vrms) at light load.  So the regulation is pretty shite unless a minimum load is provided.)  Which again saves weight compared to a full size (linear) part.

Funny thing is, swinging chokes are just as easy to make these days (e.g. high-mu powdered iron types), but they're not too useful, as the inductance is part of the loop compensation in an SMPS controller, and variable inductance tends to just make the dynamics worse; consistent behavior is preferable.

Tim
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Online nctnico

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Re: PCB power planes
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2022, 11:07:12 pm »
You should also consider that anything onto those AVCC nets is going into the ethernet cable. Having a stiff (well decoupled) and filtered supply on the analog part of an ethernet phy does help a bit with passing EMC testing.

True.  Well, sort of; it depends on the driver type.  Which I'm not sure about, there's probably three kinds?  I don't know which ones are most common.  Well, I'd guess one is out, but besides that...

Anyway, for the push-pull type driver: if it's a dual NMOS type and saturating (probably just archaic 10BASE-T transmitters?), then Rds(on) pulls the winding to GND, and AVCC is applied to it, and thus the line.  That's no automatic fail, if it's noisy; you still have to go through transformer CMRR first.  But CMRR is fairly modest (typically 35-40dB) so you can fail at some point.  (Hm, which fails first, emissions or communications? :D Probably, emissions can fail first if it's 100BASE-T mode and the noise is all at higher frequencies (>100MHz)?)

If it's push-pull but current-sinking, then it should have good PSRR, and AVCC filtering not so important.  CMRR still matters, but a few solid bypasses and not-absolute-trash power should pass pretty much anything?  CMRR can still be degraded by Coss(Vds), which would also be a high frequency effect, maybe that could be relevant.  (The output devices should be pretty tiny, like ~10pF, not a big deal at most frequencies).

If it's H-bridge and current or voltage mode (typical of 1000BASE-T, innit?), it can be kinda either way; depends on the internal design.  It could be current-sourcing with good PSRR; it could be voltage mode, referenced to VDD/GND in all the wrong places.  Again, don't know much about 'em, alas.
AFAIK there are several different approaches for ethernet driver circuits. The low end crap from Microchip / SMSC uses some kind of modulation using a higher frequency which then puts a lot of harmonics on the line. When being forced to use a low end phy, I start with putting 10 Ohm ferrite beads (with the highest impedance at frequencies over 125MHz) in the signal paths. The filtering inside an ethernet transformer does less than I would like. If you dig deeper into application notes for ethernet phys you'll often find series resistors and  / or ferrite beads mentioned to pass EMC testing.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline harerod

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Re: PCB power planes
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2022, 10:34:03 am »
...AFAIK there are several different approaches for ethernet driver circuits. The low end crap from Microchip / SMSC uses some kind of modulation using a higher frequency which then puts a lot of harmonics on the line. When being forced to use a low end phy, ...
"Again what learned", as we say here in Germany. So, if no force is being put upon you - which PHY would you go for? Asking for a friend... ;)
 

Online nctnico

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Re: PCB power planes
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2022, 12:02:23 pm »
...AFAIK there are several different approaches for ethernet driver circuits. The low end crap from Microchip / SMSC uses some kind of modulation using a higher frequency which then puts a lot of harmonics on the line. When being forced to use a low end phy, ...
"Again what learned", as we say here in Germany. So, if no force is being put upon you - which PHY would you go for? Asking for a friend... ;)
I like the ones from TI; especially the low EMI & ruggedized models. Unfortunately these are hard to buy at the moment though.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2022, 12:04:12 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline harerod

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Re: PCB power planes
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2022, 02:52:27 pm »
Do you have part numbers? I would like to have a look at the datasheets. Thanks.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: PCB power planes
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2022, 05:29:45 pm »
Do you have part numbers? I would like to have a look at the datasheets. Thanks.
DP83826I (100Mbit)
DP83867IS (1Gbit)
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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