Author Topic: The TLV760xx regulators are a nice piece [s]of crap[/s]  (Read 5244 times)

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Online Siwastaja

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Re: The TLV760xx regulators are a nice piece of crap
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2019, 06:49:56 pm »
Well, I'm just plugging and unplugging to an already on power supply. That should pose no issue.

This poses a HUGE issue and will often kill any IC unless you design a correctly damped input circuitry. This is basically an RC snubber.

Basics.

Tim explained it very well above.
 
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: The TLV760xx regulators are a nice piece of crap
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2019, 07:50:22 pm »
My explanation seems not to have been read... :-\

The other thing that absorbs surge (and prevents reverse polarity) is a TVS diode.  You want the TVS's peak voltage rated within the regulator's maximum, which is higher than the TVS's nominal rating by a modest amount.  So a 30V regulator might need a 24V TVS.

Again, this does nothing for overcurrent, which one should not rely on with such a tiny LDO, or really, in general.

Tim
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Offline bloguetronicaTopic starter

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Re: The TLV760xx regulators are a nice piece of crap
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2019, 08:08:00 pm »
Ok, did some experiments by putting a 220 \$\Omega\$ resistor at the input. Did some short circuits upstream to the regulator, to create some spikes, and the TLV76050 held pretty well. Raised the voltage to 28V and used another resistor in parallel with the first one, this time it was a 82 \$\Omega\$ resistor. Again, it held. So I can assume that the spike issue is solved. A 100 \$\Omega\$ resistor works with some margin.

Another issue, and that might have fried the AD5551, are the peaks during unplugging. By using 100nF capacitors at the input and the output, as described in the datasheet, I can observe peaks a bit larger than 6V, on some rare occasions after disconnecting. I can reduce those peaks by using 1uF capacitors. See the image attached. After the sample, I couldn't get peaks greater than 5.72V.

My explanation seems not to have been read... :-\

The other thing that absorbs surge (and prevents reverse polarity) is a TVS diode.  You want the TVS's peak voltage rated within the regulator's maximum, which is higher than the TVS's nominal rating by a modest amount.  So a 30V regulator might need a 24V TVS.

Again, this does nothing for overcurrent, which one should not rely on with such a tiny LDO, or really, in general.

Tim
Your explanations were read. The 24V in the final application will be provided by an isolated DC-DC converter, which will be soldered onto the board. However, I'll still use a 100 \$\Omega\$ resistor in series with the input of the regulator just to be on the safe side. A TVS will serve no purpose there, because if the DC-DC converter outputs a peak, it will fry the diode plus the regulator.

Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: The TLV760xx regulators are a nice piece of crap
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2019, 08:12:00 pm »
A TVS will serve no purpose there, because if the DC-DC converter outputs a peak, it will fry the diode plus the regulator.

How sure are you of this?  -- What's the converter's capability?  What size diode did you have in mind?

I have an application that uses a switching converter to dump six hundred watts into a trio of SMC sized TVS diodes.  They take this abuse for almost a full second before simply getting too hot (I have thermal protection in the circuit).  TVS diodes are damn good at their job. :)

Tim
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Offline bloguetronicaTopic starter

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Re: The TLV760xx regulators are a nice piece of crap
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2019, 08:54:12 pm »
A TVS will serve no purpose there, because if the DC-DC converter outputs a peak, it will fry the diode plus the regulator.

How sure are you of this?  -- What's the converter's capability?  What size diode did you have in mind?

I have an application that uses a switching converter to dump six hundred watts into a trio of SMC sized TVS diodes.  They take this abuse for almost a full second before simply getting too hot (I have thermal protection in the circuit).  TVS diodes are damn good at their job. :)

Tim
I think that this application doesn't need to have that. The DC-DC converter itself is well regulated. If something goes wrong, then the whole board is toasted. Anyway, I'm planning to use the resistor and perhaps a 1206L005 in series with the input of the regulator. It is a bit of over-engineering, but if the board comes with the 5V rail shorted right after soldering, I won't get damaged components. A TVS will be used, for sure, but only at the input of the board, along with a nice big PPTC fuse and a SCR crowbar.

Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 09:00:24 pm by bloguetronica »
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: The TLV760xx regulators are a nice piece of crap
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2019, 10:31:00 pm »
I would say almost every voltage regulator experiences overcurrent on start up while charging the output and load capacitance.
Are we saying this IC shouldn't have to protect itself? It seems to be using die temperature for current limit...

I've had some SMPS IC's fail due to input dV/dt being too fast. Like ignition key-on in a car, or plugging a banana jack to a bench power supply, it's a fast rise.

Sometimes I wonder why yet another linear voltage regulator IC rolls out. Do you really need 573 parts in your portfolio?  :palm:

Linear Tech App Note 88 Ceramic Input Capacitors Can Cause Overvoltage Transients. On a 24V wall-wart, spike is over 40V, and TVS, snubber etc. tried.
 
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: The TLV760xx regulators are a nice piece of crap
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2019, 10:44:10 pm »
Well, I don't want LDOs for 1 cent, but I want LDOs that won't damage parts.
FYI, the LDOs dont damage the parts. The lack of input protection damages the part, and the lack of inrush current control.
TI tells you this, there is nothing wrong with the part. The way you connect it that is the problem.
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slva670a/slva670a.pdf
If the 10uF capacitor has for example 0.1 Ohm internal resistance, then your regulator has to source 3.3A, which is a little bit more than it is capable of.
 

Offline bloguetronicaTopic starter

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Re: The TLV760xx regulators are a nice piece of crap
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2019, 11:07:49 pm »
...
Are we saying this IC shouldn't have to protect itself?
...
Completely out of the context. Precisely the opposite, it should protect itself and the load. When I see comments like this, I don't even bother reading the rest. However, the graphs were insightful.

Well, I don't want LDOs for 1 cent, but I want LDOs that won't damage parts.
FYI, the LDOs dont damage the parts. The lack of input protection damages the part, and the lack of inrush current control.
TI tells you this, there is nothing wrong with the part. The way you connect it that is the problem.
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slva670a/slva670a.pdf
If the 10uF capacitor has for example 0.1 Ohm internal resistance, then your regulator has to source 3.3A, which is a little bit more than it is capable of.
I can confirm that a 22 \$\Omega\$ resistor in series and a 1uF capacitor in parallel after that seems to do the trick. Even a 4.7 \$\Omega\$ resistor and the same capacitor will help protect the regulator. It is a fact that this board, unlike other boards I've made, doesn't have a big electrolytic capacitor to help filter the spikes (I can't have one in the final application).

Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 11:18:07 pm by bloguetronica »
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: The TLV760xx regulators are a nice piece of crap
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2019, 11:35:46 pm »
Completely out of the context. Precisely the opposite, it should protect itself and the load. When I see comments like this, I don't even bother reading the rest. However, the graphs were insightful.

Quite in context -- if you want the regulator to do everything, you'll need to find one that's rated to do everything.

If you just need a teensy little point-of-load regulator, you'd choose the one in question here.

If you want something more robust, consider an old fashioned regulator (the power rating is higher, and the reliability is well understood), or something automotive qualified (often rated for high peak voltages, negative input and so on, and generally high reliability -- again, within ratings at least).

No one part is suitable for everything, don't try to force fit something that doesn't belong.  Just keep shopping, read datasheets very carefully. :)

Tim
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Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Offline bloguetronicaTopic starter

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Re: The TLV760xx regulators are a nice piece of crap
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2019, 12:40:22 pm »
Ok, it seems that the resistor in series with the input does the trick. It limits the inrush current going to the regulator. The short circuit protection also works.

Although, in the final application, this section will be supplied by a 8W DC-DC converter, I'll keep the 22 \$\Omega\$ resistor for two reasons:
- The pass transistor Q2 is prone to cause transients when the load is a variable CC load;
- The DC-DC converter will cause transients if it enters hiccup mode for some reason.

The schematic for the test module is attached. I hope that there is no other phenomenon, like currents going from the OPA2180 input upsetting the AD5551, or the voltage regulator, and causing it to fail.

As a final note, I stand corrected and the TLV760 series regulators are not a piece of crap. The inrush current to that 10uF niobium cap was taking its toll, along with the transients.

Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 02:17:13 pm by bloguetronica »
 

Offline Warhawk

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Re: The TLV760xx regulators are a nice piece of crap
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2019, 02:51:22 pm »
I am happy you could solve it. I simply love the world of electronics (no irony).

Please consider changing the thread name.  It hurts our sales  :-DD

Offline hans

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Re: The TLV760xx regulators are a nice piece of crap
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2019, 04:05:47 pm »
Let this be a lesson why you should always fully condition inputs and outputs to your boards.

On your last schematic I still see that 24V line going directly to an OPA2180 amplifier, with some small capacitors attached. If you're confident those won't create nasty spikes during hot plugging (cable = L, cap = C, LC tank oscillator, as Tim pointed out already), then keep it like it is.... But I would connect that opamp after your 22R/1uF filter. It also will filter against mid-frequency ripples on your power supply.

Input protection (ESD and TVS diodes) plus EMI filtering seems to be absent. Although this board only contains linear components, you don't want any oscillations or incoming switching noise be amplified to the outside world.
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: The TLV760xx regulators are a nice piece of crap
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2019, 04:21:00 pm »
Well, it seems that the TPS70933 is even worse.

You must be doing something wrong, or i must be extremely lucky :) I found the TPS709A series to be reliable and capable to handle any stress i could induce in an automotive environment (I chose it because of the reverse voltage protection, i'm not always powering the boards from VBAT)
 

Offline bloguetronicaTopic starter

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Re: The TLV760xx regulators are a nice piece of crap
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2019, 05:13:31 pm »
Let this be a lesson why you should always fully condition inputs and outputs to your boards.

On your last schematic I still see that 24V line going directly to an OPA2180 amplifier, with some small capacitors attached. If you're confident those won't create nasty spikes during hot plugging (cable = L, cap = C, LC tank oscillator, as Tim pointed out already), then keep it like it is.... But I would connect that opamp after your 22R/1uF filter. It also will filter against mid-frequency ripples on your power supply.

Input protection (ESD and TVS diodes) plus EMI filtering seems to be absent. Although this board only contains linear components, you don't want any oscillations or incoming switching noise be amplified to the outside world.
The idea is to test this as close as possible to what will be used in the final implementation. But probably, I'll have to use a PI filter after the DC-DC converter. The 22R resistor is there, as will be in the final application, just to protect the regulator. I think the issue might be caused by inrush current, and not by inductive spikes alone. In summary, a PI filter to smooth the voltage going to the whole system, and a local 22R resistor just for the regulator.

Well, it seems that the TPS70933 is even worse.

You must be doing something wrong, or i must be extremely lucky :) I found the TPS709A series to be reliable and capable to handle any stress i could induce in an automotive environment (I chose it because of the reverse voltage protection, i'm not always powering the boards from VBAT)
Did you tested that with 24V? Yes, the wrong I was doing consisted of not limiting the inrush current and neither filtering out the inductive spikes on power up.

Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 05:20:54 pm by bloguetronica »
 

Offline hans

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Re: The TLV760xx regulators are a nice piece of crap
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2019, 07:39:52 pm »
Let this be a lesson why you should always fully condition inputs and outputs to your boards.

On your last schematic I still see that 24V line going directly to an OPA2180 amplifier, with some small capacitors attached. If you're confident those won't create nasty spikes during hot plugging (cable = L, cap = C, LC tank oscillator, as Tim pointed out already), then keep it like it is.... But I would connect that opamp after your 22R/1uF filter. It also will filter against mid-frequency ripples on your power supply.

Input protection (ESD and TVS diodes) plus EMI filtering seems to be absent. Although this board only contains linear components, you don't want any oscillations or incoming switching noise be amplified to the outside world.
The idea is to test this as close as possible to what will be used in the final implementation. But probably, I'll have to use a PI filter after the DC-DC converter. The 22R resistor is there, as will be in the final application, just to protect the regulator. I think the issue might be caused by inrush current, and not by inductive spikes alone. In summary, a PI filter to smooth the voltage going to the whole system, and a local 22R resistor just for the regulator.

The 22 ohm resistor provides damping for the LCR setup that includes your board, wiring and input capacitor of the regulator.
You can view this as the inrush current of the capacitor charging up it's voltage also simultaneously "charging up" the inductor's current. Namely, the inductor current will rise because the input potential is higher than the output. Once the capacitor voltage has stabilized, the inductor current has "charged up" to it's maximum, since both sides are now equal. However, for the "charged up" inductor current to dissipate, the inductor needs a negative voltage in order to do so. Since your bench power supply will probably be incredibly low impedance (it's not going to change), the voltage on the capacitor will increase. This "discharge cycle" of the inductor can cause the capacitor voltage to spike up to 2x it's nominal applied value. This is somewhat lessened by any quiescent loads applied on the circuit, so it's rare to see an actual 100% overshoot, but nonetheless it's something to take into account.

If you hot plug this 30V (35V max) regulator into a 24V supply, you can expect that it will damage the regulator. Trust me, I've been bitten by this bullet very hard once that costed me about half a dozen fancy regulators and 2 prototype boards.

The poles for a series LCR circuit are -R/2L +/- sqrt(R^2 - 4L/C). If you want a over-dampened system (i.e. no overshoots), you'll want to have R^2 - 4L/C > 0. With L=3uH (guessing you used roughly 3 meters of cable) and C=1.2uF, you get R^2>10, so a 3.3 ohm resistor should be sufficient. I read that you tested a 4.7R resistor also worked fine in protecting the regulator.
See the attachments for the circuit in LTspice, then simulation with all series resistors 100m ohm (voltage source, inductor and capacitor), then final simulation with L1 having a series 3.3 ohm resistance. R1 simulates any small load that might be present, but honestly does little in this case.
Counterintuitively, another solution would be to not use a ceramic capacitor, but a "crap" electrolytic capacitor instead.

I don't think that the in-rush current on the output of the regulator is going to damage it. Namely the absolute max specs says that the output current is "internally limited". The device is thermally protected against long overloads.  In my experience you will need to very grossly overload a part for it to fail instantly, and applying over 10V it's nominal rating can certainly cause it to very quickly degrade (i.e. a few power cycles) or instantly fail.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 07:45:21 pm by hans »
 
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Offline bloguetronicaTopic starter

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Re: The TLV760xx regulators are a nice piece [s]of crap[/s]
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2019, 09:11:06 pm »
Thanks Hans! That is very useful. Probably, the PI filter I'm planning to use downstream to the DC-DC converter will be another reason to use the resistor. Although it will smooth out the switching from the converter, it will probably exacerbate the potential issue.

Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço
 

Offline Warhawk

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Re: The TLV760xx regulators are a nice piece [s]of crap[/s]
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2019, 10:01:54 pm »
I would consider a TVS dide there too.  :)


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